Issues with load development

[Stellawood]

I performed a ladder test early this morning. I fired a total of 26 rounds. I feel like I can see where consecutive powder charges land in the same area, but the velocity differences between each charge is alarming.

All cases are once fired Prime brass. I fully resized each case since the brass was not fired from my rifle. I’m using cci#200 primers. Every round is load to 2.825 COAL. Hornady 140g ELD-M. I’m thinking of switching to Barnes match burners unless there’s a reason I shouldn’t. Reloader 16 with charges from 41.0-43.4 in .2g increments. Bighorn TL3 with a 24” Hawk-hill barrel 1/8 twist. I’m using a Redding press with a charge master and Redding full length sizer and a Redding seater. I plan on getting the #7 micrometer seating stem soon.

I’m seeing a major difference in velocity between rounds that are the exact same powder charge! Is this due to poor practices on my part? I had 2 stuck cases, but they were easily pushed out by a cleaning rod.

Here are the targets and velocities. The first velocity of the charge is for the blue target, the other is for the red and white target. Please excuse my terrible hand writing.

 

[ShtrRdy]

What are you using for a chronograph?

What distance were you firing ?

Is this a 6.5mm Creedmoor?

 

[Stellawood]

I knew I forgot to include some info. I’m using a magnetospeed on a homemade mount so it’s not on the barrel. I did have to turn the sensitivity up, I think I set it to 8. These were all at 100, I know it’s preferred to shoot at 200+ but I wasn’t able to do that today. And yes it is a 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[spife7980]

I dont know what to make of your targets, too close to tell. Also, your blue target leaves 41 missing. And your red target with the shots unspecified makes them basically useless too since we dont know what is what.

 

[tunaman]

Be sure that you wait for the final readout on the CM before you drop the powder, if you aren’t doing so, so that you ensure the charge is as close as you can get with that scale. Mine at times will drop a little after hitting the mark, even with the straw mod, and I use a little powder scoop to adjust the charges as precisely as possible when I’m working up ladder loads.

Is this a new platform for you? Don’t have any previous data? Your charge spread is quite wide... I usually focus on a 1 grain spread when I’m working up a ladder myself. I do like working in .2 increments as you are using.

I also believe that your sampling is far too small... I work up everything in 5 round groups, and usually do two groups at each range (10 shots total) so that I have more data for each node.

I am working up my load for my Tikka .260, and was out last weekend with a Labradar that I just picked up. I shot a ladder from 42.2 - 43.0 (H4350), and had the following results:

Avg - 2691 ES - 19 SD - 7.6
Avg - 2694 ES - 21 SD - 11.2
Avg - 2702 ES - 50 SD - 18.9
Avg - 2723 ES - 52 SD - 20.7
Avg - 2754 ES - 31 SD - 15.1

Here are the results for each grouping:

 

[tunaman]

Obviously mine likes the lower end. I was only able to shoot one 5 shot group for each node, so I’ll be going back soon and repeat the process to see if the results are duplicated, but I’m narrowing the range down pretty well so far.

Obviously the hardware is far better than the software (shooter) at this point - I’m pretty novice in all honesty. I pulled a shot in nearly each of the groups, but what I’m paying most attention to is the vertical data as that is where the deviations will manifest themselves significantly.

I know that the lower values shoot well in my rifle, as I was able to hit two straight out to just over 3/4 of a mile about a month ago. I didn’t have any chrono data until now, as I just got the Labradar, so I look forward to having that input in addition to anecdotal data from target results.

Good luck!

 

[Stellawood]

@spife7980
The blue target 41 grain charge was accidentally shot in my group of sight in shots. I felt the same way about the red/white shots as well. Something had came up where I had to get home earlier, forcing me to rush things. I thought I’d rather shoot the leftover ammo and maybe get some velocity data rather than take it home with me. What programs did you use to make those charts?

@tunaman
I wait until the scale goes through the screen that shows how many you’ve charged at that weight. Once it displays the final weight after that I wait a few seconds before I take the tray off. I let the scale warm up at least 4 hours, and I spot check the weight with a rcbs beam scale.
I purchased a barreled action that the previous owner said they had 400 factory rounds down it. No load data but with a bore scope everything looked fine. I did such a large spread so I can maximize my range time, but I can see where that can be an issue.

So being in the situation I am at, where do I go from here? Do I restart all my testing? If so is it really worth waiting until I can shoot the loads at 200yards? How many rounds at each charge should I make? Do I shoot groups with each charge, or try and do the ladder again? Any info would be much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this!

 

[spife7980]

@spife7980
What programs did you use to make those charts?

there is an embedded link in the article, it only goes to 10 so you have to edit the formulas and charts to include the extra lines necessary.

Load Development Analysis

Determination of the optimal load for your rifle necessarily includes some form of analysis. In this episode we cover load development analysis – as a follow-up to the very popular 6.5 Guys L…

www.65guys.com

So being in the situation I am at, where do I go from here? Do I restart all my testing? If so is it really worth waiting until I can shoot the loads at 200yards? How many rounds at each charge should I make? Do I shoot groups with each charge, or try and do the ladder again? Any info would be much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this!

No, dont shoot a ladder at 200. Do it at 300 plus with 5-600 being way better still. The ladder test allows you to see how the bullets flight and gravity interact with respect to the theory of positive compensation can do its thing.

You are being redirected...

When you fire the rifle the barrel whips around and expands and contracts etc, look at these gifs for examples of all the various ways https://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm


A ladder test is extending the distances so that those small effects are minimized in relation to the gravity component, the longer gravity can influence the bullet in flight the larger that one component will appear.
If the fast bullet leaves the barrel a bit sooner while its lower in its vibration pattern and the slower bullet leaves the barrel a bit later at the top of its vibration then ideally the bullets at some point will cross back onto one another.

If you only have access to 200 then ladder testing in the incorrect methodology. You should instead go with the OCW methodology.

Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

Dan Newberry OCW or Optimal Charge Weight Load Development method or system for handloading, reloading, bullets, brass, powder, primers, accurate handloads.

optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

In this you load up 3-5 rounds groups for your charge weight increments (more data is always better) and fire each charge weight at its own target. You then compare where consecutive groups impact the same area in relation to the point of aim. Ignoring group size you want to find a series of charge weights where the point of impact is consistent from one to the next and then work on your seating depth to shrink the groups.

If you were to take all of the individual targets after they have been shot and stack them on top of one another you would be looking for where they are clustered together.

 

[tunaman]

IMHO, no need to go to 200 yards... 100 should be fine for this effort.

I can’t discern any useful data from the targets you posted, sorry, so I can’t deduce any node ranges to focus on. Presuming that you were aiming dead center for each shot.

I myself would maybe research some posted pet loads, and focus on a smaller range to evaluate. Looking at Hodgdon load data, it appears that the min/max range for 6.5 CM varies about 3.5 - 4 grains more or less, depending on the powder. Looking at the .260, the range is much more narrow. Given that, and presuming a blank slate, I would start with 5 (or 10) rounds near min and go up in .4 increments up to, or near, max. This data should give you some areas to focus, and then you could work up ladders in .2 increments to refine your optimum node.

Otherwise, if your research finds most seem to have good success in a more narrow range you can throw out the high and low portions of the range and start working up in that window. Paying attention to vertical spread, along with ES and SD, should give you good results to then take farther out in distance.

Every gun is going to be unique, but I’d be willing to bet there are a lot of commonalities in load results for a given caliber on a given platform.

 

[Stellawood]

@spife7980
I have access for up to 1000yards so I will attempt this a second time. Yesterday they were closed off at further distances for some reason. My worry as I perform my ladder test at these ranges, will my shooting ability throw the results off considerably. I know the horizontal spread is not important, but is there some room for error on my end Incase I’m perfect consistent on my point of aim? Knowing that is ladder still a bad idea even though I have access to longer ranges? If I do the ladder test again I’ll probably load 3 rounds at these increments just to get more data and give a better average of where the rounds land to try and take out my negative effects.

@tunaman
I think what I’ll do as I perform the ladder test I will load some rounds at the known pet loads as sighters and also shoot groups at that distance to see how well those work.

Any positive or negative feelings on the Barnes 140g match burners?

 

[Steel head]

At 300-500 yards the ladder test isn’t really difficult but far easier to read results.

Take your time and try to get consistent shots.

I shot some match burners.
Nothing special but they shot decent.
Reminded me of hornandy BTHP’s

 

[spife7980]

There is always room for shooter error to influence the results so long as the shooter is on the rifle pulling the trigger.
Personally, I like OCW more than ladder methodologies.
Ladders are great if you have your shit together, you can find out where you want to go with very few shots.
If youre just learning the ocw method is a bit more beginner friendly and you can shoot groups with as many data points as you care to. 5 rounds groups is really informative and helps weed out what the load is doing vs how you pulled that one shot out etc. just by giving you a larger data population to sample from.

 

[Stellawood]

At 300-500 yards the ladder test isn’t really difficult but far easier to read results.

Take your time and try to get consistent shots.

I shot some match burners.
Nothing special but they shot decent.
Reminded me of hornandy BTHP’s

The reason I’m wanting to make the switch to match burners is because it seems like the 140 eldm are always sold out but match burners are always there, but that’s why I am timid about them. There has to be a reason why they’re always available.

 

[Stellawood]

There is always room for shooter error to influence the results so long as the shooter is on the rifle pulling the trigger.
Personally, I like OCW more than ladder methodologies.
Ladders are great if you have your shit together, you can find out where you want to go with very few shots.
If youre just learning the ocw method is a bit more beginner friendly and you can shoot groups with as many data points as you care to. 5 rounds groups is really informative and helps weed out what the load is doing vs how you pulled that one shot out etc. just by giving you a larger data population to sample from.

At what range do you prefer to do your ocw test. If I were to do the 5 rounds of each charge, what grain increments should I start at? With the seating depth, where do you usually start?

 

[spife7980]

I shoot my ocw at 100. Its far enough that the results wont all just be one indiscernible ragged hole like a center fire at 50 yards would(should) be. Close enough that the environmentals have a minimal influence on the results.

In knowing what most others are running I would probably look at the 41.8-42.8 area. I see 42.X being a very frequent report from others. Or go for 4 shot groups and run

I like to start .020 off the lands. You know you can go

 

[Steel head]

The reason I’m wanting to make the switch to match burners is because it seems like the 140 eldm are always sold out but match burners are always there, but that’s why I am timid about them. There has to be a reason why they’re always available.

Try them.
I definitely wouldn’t buy bulk till you know you can get them to shoot.

 

[karb]

10% below the listed maximum is where I'd start.....mag length for coal or .020 off ....sometimes a bullet just happens to do both....you want wiggle room to tweak coal AFTER you found the flat spot in the OCW. And as others have stated above....look for the trending pair of groups next to each other....as well as your velocity sitting almost still between the two....it's the flat spot that you are looking to hone the coal to. I find the ocw at 100yds, then turn the rifle to 300 and adjust coal on suspected node....I let my gun cool between each 3/5 shot group...it makes a difference

 

[Sheldon N]

My 0.02...

Once fired brass of varying lots from someone elses rifle(s) is not the best recipe for consistency. Prime/Norma brass is okay but there's a reason it sells pretty cheap. Might improve a bit after 2nd firing in your rifle, maybe not. Perhaps weight sorting the brass would help give more consistency since you don't know how many different lots/boxes of ammo this came from.

Your loads are pretty hot. I would not be looking for much more velocity than 2800 ish with a 24" barrel 6.5 creed with 140 ELD-M.

Stuck cases? You should have stopped. If the bolt is hard to lift, even slightly, back the charge weight down.

Why did you pick 2.85 COAL? You should figure out where the bullet touches the lands, then seat back 0.020 further. Measure the ogive of the bullet, not OAL.

Explore more in the low/mid 41 grain range.

 

[spife7980]

Stuck cases? You should have stopped. If the bolt is hard to lift, even slightly, back the charge weight down.

Excellent point that I skipped right over.
I back at least half a grain down from my first indication of any pressure. Tight bolt lift is usually not even the first sign, usually I can see ejector marks and flattened primers first.

Understanding Pressure :: Primal Rights, Inc

Reading pressure is a required skill that all shooters must have. Whether you are shooting factory ammunition or your own handloads, you absolutely must be able to detect and interpret pressure signs on your fired brass.

www.primalrights.com

 

[Stellawood]

Well I definitely have gained a lot of information that I can use moving forward with the reloading.
The reason I went with 2.825coal is because that seemed like the place to start from reading others load development and I did not have my modified case in yet to do the measurements for finding the lands. I have the comparator to check the measurement from the ogive but I didn’t go that route because I knew I already wasn’t basing the oal. When I got home I started to look up videos and found the video where I remove my firing pin assembly and extractor and test the oal, I cannot recall the videos name but it seems to be fairly popular. I will be doing this when I get home from work today.

Both stuck cases were the 41g load. I continued on because I had no other signs of pressure, which I know could’ve be extremely dangerous, especially at my reloading knowledge. The only time I saw any sign of high pressure was an extractor mark on the second firing of 43.4 load. I would should 3 consecutive shots, then check each case until I got to 42.6 then I started to check after each round.

When checking testing for the oal, should I be removing the extractor, ejector and firing pin assembly. I’m using a bighorn tl3 action.

Both mistakes of not finding the correct seating depth and continuing on after having a stuck case I will blame on my impatience with wanting to shoot the rifle I just finished putting together. I definitely now know that was a bad idea which shouldn’t be repeated, especially on the stuck case side of things.

 

[Stellawood]

To add onto the stuck cases, after removing them, they had these black smears running vertically. Probably starting about 1/4in from the case head, and they were only about 1/4in long. After rubbing them they felt and smeared like glue from a old sticker. Weird reference but that’s the only thing I could think of when I saw it. Cases were clean when I put them in the magazine. Along with that, could the cases being stuck be due to me not sizing them correctly?

 

[ShtrRdy]

Since the brass had been originally fired out of a different rifle it is very possible that you weren't able to reduce the diameter of the base enough.

I don't know about the black smudge mark.

 

[Stellawood]

So the plan for my next day at the range(Monday) is to do the ocw at 100 yards. I have 26 cases that are now on the 2nd firing. The first being from a previous owner, who I know personally. They do not reload so I know they’re on their first firing. Although these rounds were some of the first rounds through a brand new barrel, not sure if that means anything. The second firing was from this past range day.

My plan is to take measurements of all the cases, bump the shoulder back .003 from the largest case, unless you disagree. I’m going to remove the firing pin and extractor and find the lands, then set the case to allow for .02 jump to the lands. The charges I plan on using at 4 loads at 41.2/41.5/41.8/42.1/42.4/42.7... are there any charges I should omit, or are these good to go with. I’d have two leftover cases that are formed to my chamber, any of the groups I should make 5 loads at? Am I overthinking the need to have each charge with fire formed cases?

 

[ShtrRdy]

You should probably leave your extractor in place. But you could remove the ejector.

Do you have any factory ammo you fired in your barrel? If so you could do some measurements on the factory ammo case and reloaded ammo case to see if they are different.

Based on the velocities you got the first time around I would suggest your lowest charge weight be 40.9 or maybe even 40.6

 

[Stellawood]

I do not have any of the other factory cases. I bought some cheap sellier and bellot ammo and don’t remember where I put the cases. I found where my lands are following the wheeler precision video. Base to ogive touching the lands is 3.282, should I round down or just seat the bullets case head to ogive at 3.262 for testing? I know this will change later so it doesn’t really matter, right?

As for the shoulder, I measured 15 cases that have been through my rifle. All measured between 2.600-2.602. I measured 5 cases that were through the other rifle and they measured 2.603-2.605. Is there a chance that I didn’t set the shoulder back far enough on my cases to where they stayed at/close to the spec from the other rifle? I know cases from another rifle shouldn’t chamber in mine, but I may of misread.

 

[spife7980]

You don’t need to remove the extractor, you just slide the case rim under it before chambering.
And it’s a mechanical ejector so no need to remove it.
Just pop the firing pin real easy like.

Also, try it without first just for ease of simplicity but if it locks up on you you’ll want to take a little pea sized piece of tape and cover the bottom/left side of the bolt head retaining cross pin so that it doesn’t wiggle its way out in you. Not a lot of tape, just enough to hold on and positioned so that it doesn’t catch the ejector while you work the bolt.

 

[Stellawood]

@spife7980

I did the testing with only removing the firing pin assembly and was able to do it without any issue. Those are the results I got, unless they seem off?

 

[spife7980]

Damn, I must have opened the page earlier and gone away from it to come back and other stuff had happened because a couple of those posts weren’t there, I swear!

Glad to hear it went smoothly.
Your seating depth numbers seem fine but I’m assuming that’s a dial or without zeroing the calipers for the comparator?

I would bump the shoulders back .002 from the longest fired in your rifle, which is 2.602-.002=2.600. That 2.600 should chamber smoothly. If not, cover a case in sharpie and chamber it, see where it’s rubbed off to see where you’re not clear. Probably not the shoulder but the base if there is an issue at all after you having sized and moved the shoulder to clear.



Edit: LOL I wish. Instead its just too early lol

 

[Steel head]

I would bump the shoulders back .002 from the longest fired in your rifle, which is 2.602-.002=2.620. That 2.620 should chamber smoothly.

Spife is high on drugs.
Please forgive his math.

 

[Subwrx300]

I performed a ladder test early this morning. I fired a total of 26 rounds. I feel like I can see where consecutive powder charges land in the same area, but the velocity differences between each charge is alarming.

All cases are once fired Prime brass. I fully resized each case since the brass was not fired from my rifle. I’m using cci#200 primers. Every round is load to 2.825 COAL. Hornady 140g ELD-M. I’m thinking of switching to Barnes match burners unless there’s a reason I shouldn’t. Reloader 16 with charges from 41.0-43.4 in .2g increments. Bighorn TL3 with a 24” Hawk-hill barrel 1/8 twist. I’m using a Redding press with a charge master and Redding full length sizer and a Redding seater. I plan on getting the #7 micrometer seating stem soon.

I’m seeing a major difference in velocity between rounds that are the exact same powder charge! Is this due to poor practices on my part? I had 2 stuck cases, but they were easily pushed out by a cleaning rod.

Here are the targets and velocities. The first velocity of the charge is for the blue target, the other is for the red and white target. Please excuse my terrible hand writing.View attachment 7100826

To mirror what others have said and add a couple of things jump out to me:

1. HOT loads... Pushing 6.5CMs to 2800-2850 is usually close to max or slightly past (powder dependent obviously). 43gr R16 is right at limit of pressure (if using SAAMI pressure standards) and lot to lot variation + temp burn rate changes could create issues in future. Quickload showed MAX of 42.8 or so with R16.
2. Velocity spreads: the DIY Magneto mount may seem like a good thing but it may be adding to the velocity spread. If the sensor is moving in any way or angled slightly up/down/left/right, you will probably get funky readings. Verify its working properly by sending 5-6 rounds with magneto attached to barrel then 5-6 rounds attached to your mount. If you see a difference in SD between the two, it's likely the mount causing issues.
3. R16- while several people have gotten good loads with R16, I would wager that H4350/140ELD would give you lower SD and better precision. 42-43gr usually does the trick at 2.810-2.830 oal.
4. New barrel - load development on a barrel with less than 50-75 rounds can be frustrating. I usually send a slower known load through new barrels to get it fouled and worn in a bit before worrying about velocity/SD.
5. 140 ELDs - nodes are generally around 2700-2720, 2750-2770, and 2800-2820 (in my experience.). I think you're a bit too far up the pressure ladder for that bullet/cartridge.
6. Long range testing- for pure precision, there is no substitute for distance. Testing at 100 can be misleading...I run ladders/OCW style testing at 400yds to get a better idea of how bullet reacts down range.
7. Factory Ammo- when in doubt, buy 20 rounds of factory 140ELD ammo as a control/baseline. It will give a good indicator of precision without the issues potentially created during the handloading process. If it groups .5moa or better with good SD, try to clone it with H4350 (40.5-41gr usually) and you will have your own control ammo in the future.
8. 140ELDs (again) - I've used them extensively and while they work very well inside 500-600, I've personally experienced issues with inconsistent flight using 8 twist barrels beyond 650-700. Have sinced dumped them all together save for practice ammo inside 700.

I hope these help and good luck with tuning!

 

[Stellawood]

Yeah I’m still stuck using a dial caliper, it’s what I had and I haven’t seen the need to upgrade yet.
So when I do bump the shoulders back and if/when I across another pair of stuck casings, would I need to use a small base die, or do I just toss out the two cases that had gotten stuck the first time. I’m assuming this is where it was getting stuck originally just from the marks left on the two cases after pushing them out.

What’s everyone’s trim length?

 

[karb]

Yep, I do .002 off the shoulder on my bolt gun, and .004 on my gas guns...well, now you found the lands, and have a Coal in mind.... looking back at your original velocities, I would swear I see a flat spot on the first three charges!! Yes, I know your chart is sporadic, and that may be a freak of nature....but......if you have extra brass for the test....add that area into it.....it may be a node.......On the 6.5guys link provided by spife you will see where it's mentioned to look specifically for these flat spots on your Chrono #s.....it is a strong indicator that the magic is occurring....don't focus on that one hole you made with 4 rounds unless the charge before it, or after it gives similar FPS.... Since your doing .3 increments, I would venture the flat spot to be 5fps variance...but don't quote me on that....it will be what the gun averages on the upward charges. Good luck, and keep us posted...and watch for pressure signs, velocity #s, and POI... document, and photograph!

 

[Stellawood]

@Subwrx300
1. Definitely, I will pull the charges down significantly.
2. Do I even really need to use my homemade magnetospeed mount? Will a set of rounds group size change, or is it just a POI shift?
3. I chose the rl16 since all the local shops always are sold out on the h4350, but I will order some the next one I come across any.
4. I bought the barrel used so the previous owner put ~400 rounds of factory ammo through it.
6. Definitely can see where that makes a difference, my plan was to find a few that group well within 200, then take the nodes I find out to further distances.
8. What is your current go to bullet choice?

 

[Subwrx300]

Yeah I’m still stuck using a dial caliper, it’s what I had and I haven’t seen the need to upgrade yet.
So when I do bump the shoulders back and if/when I across another pair of stuck casings, would I need to use a small base die, or do I just toss out the two cases that had gotten stuck the first time. I’m assuming this is where it was getting stuck originally just from the marks left on the two cases after pushing them out.

What’s everyone’s trim length?

1.920 is max according to specs, 1.922-24 is likely still okay though. I trim mine to 1.908 to reduce need for trimming a bit between 3-4 firings.

 

[Stellawood]

I found a few more cases I lost that were from the same reloading so I have a total of 32 cases that have been through my rifle, all norma cases. So all that being said about my high velocities, should my charge cut off be 42 grains?

 

[spife7980]

Yeah I’m still stuck using a dial caliper, it’s what I had and I haven’t seen the need to upgrade yet.
So when I do bump the shoulders back and if/when I across another pair of stuck casings, would I need to use a small base die, or do I just toss out the two cases that had gotten stuck the first time. I’m assuming this is where it was getting stuck originally just from the marks left on the two cases after pushing them out.

What’s everyone’s trim length?

The black marks and possibly slightly stuck cases could also just be gunk in the chamber, since its a used rifle give it a good solvent cleaning and wipe that chamber out clean. Tossing them works too with fewer headaches lol

Better if you have a copy of your own reamer print but saami spec is 1.920-.020 so anywhere from 1.900-1.920 is in spec. Usually I split the difference so I would trim to 1.910

 

[karb]

I use the magneto and suppressed when testing...Poi is shifted but it's consistent enough for me to locate the numbers, and patterns.....some contend to look for groups without, and then strap the magneto on to confirm suspected nodes..... Scott on 6.5 "says" 10 bullets with a magneto on, and he can locate his nodes....then he confirms with larger batches around those rounds he seen go flat on velocity.

 

[Subwrx300]

@Subwrx300
1. Definitely, I will pull the charges down significantly.
2. Do I even really need to use my homemade magnetospeed mount? Will a set of rounds group size change, or is it just a POI shift?
3. I chose the rl16 since all the local shops always are sold out on the h4350, but I will order some the next one I come across any.
4. I bought the barrel used so the previous owner put ~400 rounds of factory ammo through it.
6. Definitely can see where that makes a difference, my plan was to find a few that group well within 200, then take the nodes I find out to further distances.
8. What is your current go to bullet choice?

Magneto mount: some use them but I work in precision velocity measuring equipment (albeit doppler radar) and, typically, issues with data are mainly from setup issues. I would suggest mounting to barrel. I have seen slight POI shifts with magneto speed (usually higher) but I would suggest you do the following: either test for velocity/SD mounting MS to barrel OR test for accuracy/precision and take the velocity/SD with a grain of salt until you can check with MS mounted to barrel.

Group size could change (in my case, it was slightly better with the MS than without) but generally, they are pretty consistent in size with a slight POI shift. Others may have experienced differently, but setup (how close to boreline) and barrel profile are going to effect POI shift.

Regarding bullets, I've switched to Berger 140 hybrids (used a lot in the past) and, ironically, even though I can only get them to shoot .5-.7MOA they stay consistently .7-1moa to ranges beyond 1000yds. The 140s ELDS shot .2-.4 at 100-300 but by 600 were closer to .7-1moa and at 1000+, were 1.5moa+.

Other conistent bullets: 123 SMK (pointed variety), Berger 130 Hybrid, Berger 140 VLD (Hunt or Target), Lapua 139 Scenar. All of those have shot incredibly well for me; in fact the 123 SMK is arguably my favorite bullet for a 1:8T barrel. They should be capable of 2950-3000fps and have performed really well out to 1000+.

 

[karb]

Tell me you'll be shooting at six or more targets for each charge this time

 

[karb]

A target for each charge

 

[Stellawood]

So the plan for Monday is this.
Load 4 rounds at each charge of

40.3/40.6/40.9/41.2/41.5/41.8/42.3 each loaded at base to ogive 3.260

Shooting each load at separate targets at 100 yards. I will have the magnetospeed attached directly to the barrel rather than my homemade mount. I will probably order one of those wiser mounts for later uses.

Anything I’m missing or doing wrong.

Thanks again for all the help and I’ll update with my results on Monday!

 

[Stellawood]

What’s your preferred process of cleaning the chamber, I’ve never done that before @spife7980

 

[Sheldon N]

Shooting each load at separate targets at 100 yards. I will have the magnetospeed attached directly to the barrel rather than my homemade mount. I will probably order one of those wiser mounts for later uses.

My personal approach would be to load 5 at each charge weight, shoot three three shot groups at each charge weight with nothing on the barrel, then shoot the other two with the magneto strapped to the barrel.

You really want to know how the gun performs with nothing on it.

For cleaning the chamber I use a large size patch wrapped around and doubled over my cleaning rod (parker hale style jag). Then jam into chamber and twist.

 

[spife7980]

So the plan for Monday is this.
Load 4 rounds at each charge of

40.3/40.6/40.9/41.2/41.5/41.8/42.3 each loaded at base to ogive 3.260

Shooting each load at separate targets at 100 yards. I will have the magnetospeed attached directly to the barrel rather than my homemade mount. I will probably order one of those wiser mounts for later uses.

Anything I’m missing or doing wrong.

Thanks again for all the help and I’ll update with my results on Monday!

I would shoot without the magneato speed attached but at least do what Sheldon says so we get some unadulterated data on paper to analyze.

I like to give it a carbon solvent treatment, carb cleaner, boretech c4 etc on a patch. Possibly spin a brush in there to help scrape any deposits off. (Cleaning the entire barrel might not be a bad idea either since its used and you dont know its history.)
I then like to take a paper towel around a brush for a reasonably tight fit to spin in the chamber and wipe the remaining dissolved crap out of the chamber.

 

[Stellawood]

@sheldon_N

Since I have only 32 cases that have been fired through my rifle, should I take away one of the planned charges so I can make it 5 per charge group? Does it really matter that much to have fireformed cases or can I skate by with fully resized brass?

Or should I just stick with 4 per charge, throw on the homemade mount and then see what it does, then after finding a charge that groups well, continue down the path of putting the magnetospeed on the barrel.

@spife7980

I already cleaned the barrel with the copper remover and then a carbon remover. But I didn’t focus specifically on the chamber, I’m sure it was hit as I was doing the barrel, but I’ll pay special attention to it today just make sure it’s clean

 

[Doom]

Unless you plan on shooting all the time with the magnetospeed on your rifle leave it at home in the box. Find a load that shoots well and if you do, then put the magnetospeed on see what you get. It may help to refine the load. The chronograph just spits out numbers, the target gives results. ES and SD do matter but just because the ES and SD are good doesn't mean the load is good.

 

[Stellawood]

Fair enough, I’ll save the chronograph for when I have a few charges that I like.

 

[Stellawood]

made it out to the range today, no magnetospeed. I didn’t adjust my scope before shooting the 40.9 charge and shot it off the paper. Nothing special from what I could tell.

 

[Stellawood]

All this was done at 100 yards. No signs of sticky bolt lift/ stuck cases or anything like that.

 

[karb]

Since there's no Chrono.....My inclinations are towards finding out what 41.6,41.7 and 41.9 would print like because 41.5 and 41.8 "seem" huddled into the same spot. I wonder what others think. I'm always wrong and constantly learning))