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ichigo

Private
Minuteman
Jan 2, 2019
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11
#1
Hi All,

This might have been asked previously but will add one more. I have been planning to get into reloading for some time now but have not jumped in yet becuase I have not done enough research in reloading or still a little bit hesitant. From what I have read from the inter-web, there’s not much savings when reloading your own ammo because your savings from reloading will be spent on the reloading materials (their logic is that you will shoot more when you're reloading compared to buying ammo, so the saving will be a wash/moot point). Some argue about the initial amount of investment on the equipment/materials and ROI. Some mention the time spend when you are reloading since the brass prep takes the longest time in the reloading process, which is also one of the reasons why some reloaders quit due to reloading ammo is time-consuming.

In addition, finding the materials for reloading is scarce atm (primer, powder, and projectile). Together with that, the prices of equipment are currently inflated which makes the initial investment more steep which takes your ROI longer.

I’m currently planning to reload 6.5 grendel and 308 win (ar platform), which currently the apr/cpr of both cartridges are still high which is the primary reason I stop going to the range to practice (keeping my current stash at hand). The ammo price on both cartridges is one of the reasons that is driving me to start looking into reloading to be able to reload ammo for practice and hoping to become proficient enough to pass the 100 yrds certification (1 MOA group @ 100 yrds) on one of the range closest to me that has a 500+ yrds lane.

I started looking at the reloading equipment (AP press, wet tumbler, case prep station, hornady case gauges) and it’s already 1k+ investment, which excludes dies, manual, case lube, others, and reloading materials (primers, powder, and projectile). My thought was to start with Hornady LnL and use it as a single-stage press while gaining some experience and when I become proficient enough with reloading, then move to progressive reloading. Some of the reasons I’m leaning toward the Hornady LnL compared to Dillon 550c are auto-indexing, faster caliber change, and a 5 die setup (will put powder cop on one of the stations).

Goals, assumptions, and expectations
1) To become proficient at long range (500+ yrds)
2) To be able to do ladder testing
3) Reloading materials are scarce
4) Reloading equipment prices are inflated
5) Aquire reloading equipment in a piecemeal process (as funds become avail)

Thanks in advance for your advice and recommendations
 
#3
I think it's all up to you Id make sure you have at least a years worth of anything primers and powder bullets are a bit easier depending on the brand your willing to settle for . I say a years worth only because it might be a year before you find more . best of luck how ever you decide to do what ever you decide to do .
 
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#4
I say definitely go for it but before you jump in find a mentor. If you can say offer to go load up some ammo for a friend (using their equipment) it will save you a ton of time, effort, and money.

Just shooting in the dark hoping you buy the right stuff is difficult, but a few hours on a press will save you a ton of trial and error.

As far as saving money, as someone else put it, "if you want to save money go pick up cans, otherwise invest in good equipment".

I have a rifle that loves 69grain match ammo. The factory stuff (if you can get it at all) was around $1.50 per round. I can reload equivalent or better ammo for around .30 cents.

You can look at that as saving money, and it is, but rather I have put money in the game upfront. Yes I have thousands of dollars in components, but my stash can carry me for a few years if I don't go wild. When you figure out the long term gains from reloading it's definitely a good way to go. Over the course of 10 or 20 years you can stay in the ammo when times are bad and when key items are on sale you can get them cheaper.

All that said, aside from getting the best gear for your application, it's just as important to make sure there is a fit for your personality. A lot of people, myself included see reloading as a hobby by itself. Not everyone can put together a model airplane with all the small parts, and likewise not everyone is cut out for reloading. If you are not a detail oriented person then find a new hobby. If you are, and you enjoy say, making things shoot better, then jump in.

There is definitely a lot involved especially depending on what you are wanting to accomplish, but if it's a good fit then there is no time like the present to start putting together a reloading room.
 
#5
You do not have to buy new equipment, you can save a bunch of money buying used. Its kind of hard to wear out a press even after a lifetime of use, especially if you buy a single stage. I don't know how old you are but buying equipment now and starting your own reloading will reap a ton of savings if you end up reloading over a lifetime. And an added benefit is that you will learn what your rifle likes and be able to produce custom made ammunition specifically for your rifle that likely will out perform any factory ammo.

As far as the argument that you will spend more because you will shoot more, is that a bad thing? I mean not shooting because you can't afford factory ammo, versus shooting more for the same amount of money, the answer seems obvious to me.

Good luck with the journey!
 
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#6
When it comes to equipment cost, I think it's a good idea to "amortize" cost over time. Why? Because presses, dies, etc. last pretty much forever. I'm still cranking out 9mm through dies 40+ years old. My Dillon RL-550B press is over 25 years old (and it loads precision rifle ammo with consistent sub-0.002" runout). My progressive shotshell presses are also 30-40 years old. So when you factor in the length of time equipment can be used, it's easy to see how chasing $50-100 on initial cost is essentially irrelevant over time. I paid a couple hundred dollars for my MEC Grabber presses in the 1980s. They're around $600 today, with no meaningful changes.

Dillon Precision's web site has a break-even calculator and a per-round cost calculator, fwiw.

The aphorism that reloading doesn't save money because you'll shoot more...? Depends on a lot of things. If you're time-crunched with a job and family responsibilities, there may be value in buying factory ammo and selling the brass.

A wet tumbler was mentiponed. My $0.02: why bother with that nasty mess when corncob media and a vibratory tumbler work just fine? I've used less than 5 pounds of media and a few ounces of Lyman polish over the last four years. That's just me.

Regarding Hornady LnL vs. Dillon 550: maybe auto-indexing sounds good. Well, my attitude toward that is colored by experience with auto-indexing shotshell presses. While I readily admit it's a flawed analogy for a number of reasons, all I can say is that it doesn't take long to get annoyed with it when the indexer hangs a little and then snaps forward and flips shot or powder out of the case.

For me personally, the amount of "progressive automation" of the RL-550 press is just right. A buddy of mine said he tripled his pistol round output by going to a 650 - but he uses an arbor press (more than one, actually; I think he has 4 presses mounted at any given time in his shop) for rifle. I use my RL-550 for half a dozen different rifle and pistol calibers, and I don't think I give up anything in terms of assembling excellent precision rifle rounds now that I have a couple years' experience - in other words, I don't feel I need a separate single-stage press for ultimate precision. I run the 550 in a hybrid fashion for the "good stuff" and run it full-progressive for pistol and bulk 5.56x45 ammo.

The idea of finding a mentor to start reloading is a good one. If someone were to approach me in person to ask for startup help, I'd recommend a Dillon RL-550 and help him/her learn to run it in single-stage, hybrid, and full-progressive modes. Yes, startup cost is higher for a progressive - but, especially if pistol ammo is in scope for calibers loaded, you'll eventually end up with a progressive anyway.
 
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#8
TL/DR: Don’t get into reloading to save money, as you won’t. If you just enjoy shooting and would rather be at the range, buy factory.

I remember telling a friend before this covid bullshit that If I could go back and just buy factory, I would have never started reloading. Now with covid here, the left having control of Congress and the WH, I am glad I stocked up and reload… because factory ammo is scarce and price raped.

Ask yourself what is your time worth. If you’re going to buy components, stock them high and try to get the same lot number for duration of that barrel. When changing lots of components, things can change on paper and chrono.

Whatever equipment you start with, you will upgrade. Reloading for me is a love/hate relationship. I love that I can constantly keep my rifles running and tuned, but I hate prepping brass. It’s gotten better as I have upgraded my trimmer, my powder throw, etc, but now we’re increasing cost and back at what is your time worth.

Pricing and availability sucks for both factory ammo and reloading components, so ask yourself how much you plan to shoot and go from there. You could just continue shooting factory and save your brass and slowly buy reloading gear as it becomes avail and switch then when things get a little better.

Now, if you tell me you want to shoot a 6 Dasher, 6BR, etc or some Magnum that isn’t avail for factory offerings, then yes, start reloading. But if you’re just gonna run a 308/6.5 Gren, I say stick to factory.

Just my opinion. Trying to save you time and money.. and frustration with the current bullshit going on.
 
#9
I started on a RCBS kit 15 years ago or so. Think it was around $700 at the time. Rock Chucker press, 1500 charge master etc etc. Still use majority of that today. Added annealing and the dies etc since

The cost of components never goes backwards so waiting only means whatever you stash 5 years from now will be more expensive than if you buy now

If your looking to do it to save money then you likely won’t save much once you figure in time and amount of money spent on equipment and what not.

It feels good to shoot rounds that cost much less to load than factory ammo cost. It also allows you to tune loads to a gun.

You can find many items in the px section here to get started. You can always upgrade down the road. You don’t need top end equipment or dies to provide decent ammo. I achieved 1/2 moa easy enough on rcbs everything, Sierra bullets and a savage 10 in 308

The 308 is easy to load for.

Lapua brass
CCI 200 primers
IMR 4064
168/175 grain bullets

That combo will shoot good in just about any 308. Just do load work up.
 
#10
I will add this bit of advice:

Go to all your local public outdoor ranges (DNR/Conservation Dept/etc) and pick up from the ground ALL the spent brass you can find. Every one. Even the calibers you dont need. (Except .22, cuz nobody I know can reload .22) This may mean getting down on your hands & knees with a bucket, but picking up FREE BRASS will save considerable money over time.

Brass is expensive if you have to buy it, and people who don't reload leave money laying around on the ground. Keep the brass you need, trade or sell the other stuff.

Also, scrounge through the garbage cans and take home as many of those plastic ammo holders as you can get. The ones that come inside a 50rd box of pistol ammo (not rifle, just pistol) especially .45 or .40. They make excellent brass holders when reloading. You dont need the cardboard ammo boxes, but if you reload a lot of pistol ammo, they are convenient as well to store/transport pistol ammo.

Range brass can be problematic, (dirty, damaged, dented, etc) but generally speaking I'm gonna say that it will probably be once-fired factory brass and generally suitable for re-use. Anything with berdan primers can be reloaded, if you can get berdan primers. Otherwise boxer primed brass is what you want. Unusable brass can be sold for scrap.

I will now return you to your regularly scheduled program, and go continue to be thrifty somewhere else.

Oh, and one more thing. If you can get several of your buddies interested, or better yet, family members... form a reloading club and share the cost of the equipment (each buy your own components) and so spread out the initial cost of the press, dies, etc.
 
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#12
Definitely find someone to show you the ropes and actually use some stuff before buying. I would strongly suggest buying as much used as possible. If you can't find someone to teach you the basics in reloading and get 4 or 5 good sessions of reloading practice with an experienced person, go talk to the range guy at your local place. He probably will be someone who will help you in reloading but if he isn't, he can definitely help you find someone. The wma ranges especially. The value of getting one on one experience with someone and using the tools to see what works and what doesn't is HUGE! Don't let pride take that opportunity away from you, be humble and find someone to show you that you can load with YouTube is great, but it isn't the same thing.
 
#13
When my brother told me he was thinking about taking the reloading plunge I suggested he wait, it was a few months after COVID really got nuts. I propose you do the same, sort of. You can peruse the reloading section of the PX and over time pick up the things you need. Grendel and 308 is not uncommon so components will turn up from time to time (I have 123gr and 107gr bullets that I used with a Grendel currently listed if you want them lol). Also, get on wait/notification list from many different distributors and websites so that when things pop up you can jump on them. It's going to be a long time before a guy can just decide to start reloading and subsequently go buy everything he needs in one afternoon's website shopping. I think the entrant needs to be methodical, not happenstantial. One note on buying used equipment, typically stuff isn't listed because it's defective or worn out. Most of the time it's because the seller is upgrading (e.g. V2 to V3) or just wants to trying something new or different. Since the seller doesn't get his initial investment back, his loss is your gain.

Know that there's a difference between reloading and handloading. Reloading (to me anyway) is used range pickup brass and some kind of cheap bullets (maybe plated or even simple lead cast) simply for the sake of having ammo. In many way, this is much cheaper than going and buying a box of ammo at a brick and mortar store. And don't listen to the "well you'll shoot more" story. You may, or you may not. That is not a sufficient reason for doing or not doing something. Reloading is often for handgun range blasting, or even for AR or other high rate of fire scenarios where accuracy and precision is not necessarily required. Handloading on the other hand is what most guys on the Hide practice because we're trying to squeeze every bit of performance out of the gun/ammo combination. Whether for competition, hunting, ELR, or simple pleasure shooting, handloaders get off on making the best ammo they can. This means we spend a lot more money on components (e.g. Hybrid/ATips projectile and Lapua/Peterson brass) but we also spend more on guns, scopes, bipods, tripods, etc.

So, if you want to build a Grendel gas gun for the sake of running 50rds down range once or twice a month at 200yds, you can certainly get away with cheaper, reloading-type components that have been run through your AP press at a rate of a bunch per hour. If you want to build that Grendel to shoot sub-minute groups at 1k and beyond, you're going to have to start reducing "comorbidities" or factors which make reaching your goal harder. Spending $0.85 on every bullet and $1.25 on each piece of brass makes reaching the goal easier. It also bleeds over to barrels, scopes, etc. Decide what your goal is and then make choices based on what gets you there.

Once last note, having a custom rifle, tier 1 scope and sub-2.0 SD ammo that's supersonic to a gazillion yards doesn't get you to your target if YOU don't have the knowledge base to exploit the tools. While you're searching around for various components, being methodical with your money, and building your gun, you also need to be learning scope design and how to properly use them, you need to understand internal, external, and terminal ballistics (get yourself a copy of Litz's "Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting"), some basic meteorology data is useful, and other aspects to long range shooting (if that's your goal) will pay dividends later. A good gun/ammo combination can , in some ways, makeup for our human shortfalls, but identifying and addressing those shortfalls means you're going to be a better shooter and the added expense of buying good stuff is far more justified.
 
#15
Thank you all for sharing your experience and recommendations. Will try to find somebody here in central Texas that can help/show me the ropes on their handloading process and probably might know somebody that is getting out of reloading or want to sell their old reloading equipment. Most of the ranges here that I know of are indoors and I go to 3 outdoor ranges (less than an hour's drive and I believe 2 of them are picking/selling the brass cause I see buckets of brass outside their office). Pre-covid, I usually go once a month to the outdoor range and shoot 2 boxes each of factory ammo with the 308 and 6.5 grendel or when the schedule permits.

I’ll start slowly gathering the reloading equipment’s when there’s a sale, holiday, and craiglist posting, and might take a year or so and I’m ok with that but I’ll get there somehow.

Currently, I’m checking for equipment prices on Amazon, Midway, Cabelas, and Academy. Any site that you can recommend that you are using or used in the pass for reloading equipment.
 
#17
ichigo said:
Thank you all for sharing your experience and recommendations. Will try to find somebody here in central Texas that can help/show me the ropes on their handloading process and probably might know somebody that is getting out of reloading or want to sell their old reloading equipment. Most of the ranges here that I know of are indoors and I go to 3 outdoor ranges (less than an hour's drive and I believe 2 of them are picking/selling the brass cause I see buckets of brass outside their office). Pre-covid, I usually go once a month to the outdoor range and shoot 2 boxes each of factory ammo with the 308 and 6.5 grendel or when the schedule permits.

I’ll start slowly gathering the reloading equipment’s when there’s a sale, holiday, and craiglist posting, and might take a year or so and I’m ok with that but I’ll get there somehow.

Currently, I’m checking for equipment prices on Amazon, Midway, Cabelas, and Academy. Any site that you can recommend that you are using or used in the pass for reloading equipment.
Click to expand...
Even if funds and component/equipment availability were unlimited, you'll almost certainly change things over time. It's the nature of a hobby.

SH is a goldmine of information. Here's another hint: On those occasions when someone drops a bs post in your thread, click on the username and see what other posts they're making. You'll often find most of their posts are similar in value to the community.
 
#18
A lot of people enjoy reloading as much as shooting. You can get in for around $500 in equipment, plus components. You don't have to "jump in". Just start researching and figuring out what you want. Start with a good single stage press and expand from there. There will be plenty of things you don't need, but will want eventually. Watch for bargains and be patient. Components will get cheaper in time (God willing). If there is a red wave next November, prices will start to come back down. It's a great way to spend a cold winter day.
 
#20
ichigo said:
Some mention the time spend when you are reloading since the brass prep takes the longest time in the reloading process, which is also one of the reasons why some reloaders quit due to reloading ammo is time-consuming.
Click to expand...

Here are two things to consider regarding time:
  1. If you want to save money it will take more time to reload
  2. If you want to save time it will take more money to buy time saving equipment
Assuming you're reloading small batches at a time (100 to 200 rounds), the most expensive time saving equipment will be motorized case trimmer & electronic scale with motorized trickler. I stick with single stage setups so can't comment on time saving with a progressive press.

In my experience I save the most time by using a higher end trimmer and scale. The time to trim 100 pieces of brass is equal to how fast I can move my arms to stick them in the machine, plus changing the cutter head if I switch calibers, which adds 3 minutes.

NDAuanBn


Fast & accurate electronic scale is the other time saver. I started with a basic $75 beam scale. It was so slow and didn't produce results up to my expectations. Once I switched to the A&D FX120i with auto trickler v2, I saved both time and frustration. Toss in a lump with a spoon, let it trickle then dump into case. Goes about the same rate than I can insert then seat a bullet with my press.

cGc


You will eventually find your own style and time saving techniques. For example, in my process I skip tumbling brass as I find it's faster for my lower volume and choice of lube:
  1. Run all fired brass through AMP machine to anneal
  2. Dip necks in graphite to lube for carbide ball expander & make bullet seating more consistent
  3. Rub thin layer of imperial sizing wax on case
  4. Resize & decap on single stage press, stick in shell holder tray
  5. Once all resized, wipe cases with microfiber to remove sizing wax
  6. Trim cases in motorized machine
  7. Quickly hit primer pocket using low speed drill with cleaner bit
  8. Use auto loading primer tool to prime cases
  9. Spoon toss 80% of powder charge, let auto trickle finish while alternating seating the bullet
 
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#21
Jayhawkhuntclub said:
A lot of people enjoy reloading as much as shooting. You can get in for around $500 in equipment, plus components. You don't have to "jump in". Just start researching and figuring out what you want. Start with a good single stage press and expand from there. There will be plenty of things you don't need, but will want eventually. Watch for bargains and be patient. Components will get cheaper in time (God willing). If there is a red wave next November, prices will start to come back down. It's a great way to spend a cold winter day.
Click to expand...

I agree with Jay and I'm willing to bet that most reloaders are like us and enjoy reloading just as much as the shooting. At least in my case, I stopped worrying about the ROI almost immediately after I found my first .5 MOA load.

I also think you're on the right track building your own kit vs buying a starter kit. I started on an RCBS Rock Chucker kit and barely use anything it came with now with the exception of the press every now and then. Now, I load on a Co-Ax and use Forster honed dies for the most part.
 
#22
If you are doing precision reloads vs bulk I would steer you toward a single stage or a turret press.

I have a LnL and looking at moving to a turret for precision reloads because... reasons.

Buy good ammo save the brass. Shop around for deals on reloading equipment and start collecting the neccesary tools and materials. Over the course of a few months you can be setup nicely for well under $1k
 
#23
ichigo said:
Hi All,

This might have been asked previously but will add one more. I have been planning to get into reloading for some time now but have not jumped in yet becuase I have not done enough research in reloading or still a little bit hesitant. From what I have read from the inter-web, there’s not much savings when reloading your own ammo because your savings from reloading will be spent on the reloading materials (their logic is that you will shoot more when you're reloading compared to buying ammo, so the saving will be a wash/moot point). Some argue about the initial amount of investment on the equipment/materials and ROI. Some mention the time spend when you are reloading since the brass prep takes the longest time in the reloading process, which is also one of the reasons why some reloaders quit due to reloading ammo is time-consuming.

In addition, finding the materials for reloading is scarce atm (primer, powder, and projectile). Together with that, the prices of equipment are currently inflated which makes the initial investment more steep which takes your ROI longer.

I’m currently planning to reload 6.5 grendel and 308 win (ar platform), which currently the apr/cpr of both cartridges are still high which is the primary reason I stop going to the range to practice (keeping my current stash at hand). The ammo price on both cartridges is one of the reasons that is driving me to start looking into reloading to be able to reload ammo for practice and hoping to become proficient enough to pass the 100 yrds certification (1 MOA group @ 100 yrds) on one of the range closest to me that has a 500+ yrds lane.

I started looking at the reloading equipment (AP press, wet tumbler, case prep station, hornady case gauges) and it’s already 1k+ investment, which excludes dies, manual, case lube, others, and reloading materials (primers, powder, and projectile). My thought was to start with Hornady LnL and use it as a single-stage press while gaining some experience and when I become proficient enough with reloading, then move to progressive reloading. Some of the reasons I’m leaning toward the Hornady LnL compared to Dillon 550c are auto-indexing, faster caliber change, and a 5 die setup (will put powder cop on one of the stations).

Goals, assumptions, and expectations
1) To become proficient at long range (500+ yrds)
2) To be able to do ladder testing
3) Reloading materials are scarce
4) Reloading equipment prices are inflated
5) Aquire reloading equipment in a piecemeal process (as funds become avail)

Thanks in advance for your advice and recommendations
Click to expand...
As my wife keeps asking me soooo what money did you save hmmm… well ummm ahhh ahh hell.

For me It’s a hobby something to do that I enjoy unless you are planning on shooting into the thousands of round you might see a return on the investment.

Component costs Primers, powder is getting better good bullets brass as long as you are planning on recycling range fired are extreme and will likely stay there for some time.

I wanted to go with 308 or 6.5 but the costs more importantly the availability just not worth it at the moment soooo ya 223 guy here I’m having fun just the same and have learned alot of well….that didn’t work.

I have a 750 that works but I’m honestly looking at a turret press I’ve turned my 750 into a single step system it works just a bit of a pain I don’t do pistol yet I still have a few thousand case bullet and primers when I get around to it.
 
#24
Dont wait. Start buying all your reloading equipment. And yeah primers might be 120 a box right now. But that box will last most people a long time. Dont put it off any longer. It will be a completely new hobby and you will find yourself spending money on new shit all the time.
 
#26
So I have always lived by the motto, Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Reloading helps me with that perspective. Buy components in quantities you can afford when the price is right or are available if you are running low. Keep a stockpile that you are comfortable with. When the store shelves are empty of factory ammo (which we have seen), then you can relax knowing you have the ability to crank out what you need from your personal inventory. Its not about saving money (it does however), its about potentially saving lives. What good is a weapon if you have no ammo to feed it in a time of crisis? Which is exactly when you will find the store shelves empty. Life is so much easier when you are prepared for the bumps. Dive into reloading and never look back, just consider it an insurance policy.
 
#27
I started with a Lee Hand Press that resembled 1970s breast enhancer exercise device, loading 45-70 Govt. That was 2.5-years ago. I now have a turret for high volume .223/5.56 and 9mm Auto, and an RCBS Rebel single stage for precision 6.5 CM and .308. I went from a cheapo pocket digital scale to a nice beam scale to a digital bench scale. Every thing I started with was about $250 in equipment. I do not regret a single expenditure and learned over time what I needed to buy. This is a great hobby and I get tons if enjoyment from it. Some have said you will not save money reloading and they are not wrong. That said, you start looking at $60 to $80 for a box of 20 match factory loaded rounds and think: "I could buy a box of 100 bullets for less than that!" Also, there have been many times since early 2020 when I could not find factory loaded ammo but could find components. I'd recommend spending a ton of time here in SH and also watch youtube videos. There is a lot of great passing of knowledge going down online. Enjoy!!!
 
#28
My simple 'two cents' from my simple mind and cheap bastard mentality -
  1. If you enjoy the process, it only enhances the overall enjoyment of shooting
  2. You don't need expensive stuff. I still use my simple Lee 'beginners kit' press and dies. Only upgrades were a manual powder trickler, hand crank trimmer, and a beam scale that has better magnetic dampening than the Lee kit one.
  3. I learned all the basics I needed to know to reload successfully on this site. If you are careful and follow instructions its pretty easy. Lots of good info here by just reading...
With just the basics I turned a factory Savage .223 barrel from a 1-1.5 moa gun to a .75 moa gun. With my Tikka Tac .308, my hand loads give me the same results as Federal GMM, to .75 - 1moa.

I would say the investment in time and $ has been worth it so far.
 
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