So as my title states I’m just getting into reloading the 6.5 creedmore and was wondering what you fellas use to get very concentric brass. I think the only die that I’m sure of purchasing is the Forster ultimate micrometer bullet seating die. I’ve read that some guys don’t like to use the full length resizing die that also deprimes the brass because it’ll ruin your concentricity. So I’m stuck on what others I should get. Thanks guys.
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Just getting into reloading 6.5 creed..which dies?
- Thread starter Creed_28
- Start date
The decapping rod can stay, you should be able to remove just the expander ball itself and continue to deprime at the same time as sizing if that’s how you want to do it.
The redding bushing he mentioned is different than a traditional full length die in that it has a bushing for the neck so you can vary the amount of sizing you do. Typically a die will size it down further than need be and the expander ball opens it up. With the bushing you can stop it from sizing down too far and make it so that a second expansion of the brass becomes unnecessary. If you run a traditional die down and you remove the expander you will have either way too much neck tension or a second step with a mandrel to open the brass up. I will say that bushings are one of the harder ways to size brass concentrically compared to a full length die that can shift or wobble inside of the die body.
Using a bushing only also means if your brass has discrepancies in the neck then those will be pushed to the inside creating an uneven surface that interfaces with the bullet. It’s best to only bushing only if you turn necks or are using higher quality brass such as lapua but even that still have .001 of thickness differences when I’ve measured.
A lee collet is renowned for concentric brass but eventually it will still require a body or full length die when the brass expands beyond its electric properties and gets too tight in the chamber. So that creates a inconsistency in brass prep right there.
Use quality components whatever they are and you should do alright. There are no short cuts but you can stop short of having perfect ammo and still have really really good ammo with only half the effort.
The redding bushing he mentioned is different than a traditional full length die in that it has a bushing for the neck so you can vary the amount of sizing you do. Typically a die will size it down further than need be and the expander ball opens it up. With the bushing you can stop it from sizing down too far and make it so that a second expansion of the brass becomes unnecessary. If you run a traditional die down and you remove the expander you will have either way too much neck tension or a second step with a mandrel to open the brass up. I will say that bushings are one of the harder ways to size brass concentrically compared to a full length die that can shift or wobble inside of the die body.
Using a bushing only also means if your brass has discrepancies in the neck then those will be pushed to the inside creating an uneven surface that interfaces with the bullet. It’s best to only bushing only if you turn necks or are using higher quality brass such as lapua but even that still have .001 of thickness differences when I’ve measured.
A lee collet is renowned for concentric brass but eventually it will still require a body or full length die when the brass expands beyond its electric properties and gets too tight in the chamber. So that creates a inconsistency in brass prep right there.
Use quality components whatever they are and you should do alright. There are no short cuts but you can stop short of having perfect ammo and still have really really good ammo with only half the effort.
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Have you guys watched the video where “moparmadman” does a comparison test and tests the runout with different dies and methods? He used the Forester full length sizing die and the Sinclair neck turning mandrel. Here’s the link, hopefully it works.
https://youtu.be/9I2pwRDxDOQ
https://youtu.be/9I2pwRDxDOQ
Many of us have been running Forster FL sizing dies honed to squeeze the neck down slightly smaller than an expander mandrel then use an expander Mandrel to set .002 neck tension. I personally use a 21st Century TiN expander mandrel to set .002 neck tension with honed Forster dies in .223, 308, 300blk, 6.5cm and 6.5x47L.
Even if you dont use an expander mandrel a Forster FL sizing die in 6.5cm with their expander ball will give you some of the most concentric ammo out there paired with the Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die.....This is the setup I tell anyone getting into it to buy. You will be making very accurate and concentric ammo right out of the gate. If in a bolt gun, set the FL sizing die up to bump the shoulder back .001-.0015
Even if you dont use an expander mandrel a Forster FL sizing die in 6.5cm with their expander ball will give you some of the most concentric ammo out there paired with the Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die.....This is the setup I tell anyone getting into it to buy. You will be making very accurate and concentric ammo right out of the gate. If in a bolt gun, set the FL sizing die up to bump the shoulder back .001-.0015
I agree with you there he’s pretty monotone. Haha auto correct..I’m a Subie guy.
Did you have Forster hone it for you? Gotcha
Ok oki will give the Forster FL die a try and check for concentricity and then go from there. Ok I’ll give that a go once I get the brass. Just ordered some Lapua from Brownells.
I also own all 3 and have done testing with all 3 using a 21st Concentricity gauge. I found the Whidden dies to be junk IMHO. And nothing produced consistent low runout like the Forster FL sizing die. Avg .001 or less
Haha no kidding, the whole time I kept thinking, "NO!, Forester is a car". Another one I see is people say NSX when they mean NXS, new NSX for $1800...what??
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Ok, sorry to pil, joking aside, here are my comments on topic. I have three FL dies from Forster. Well two and I ordered and set up one for my Dad. All have been custom honed by Forster to achieve my desired neck tension. They range from approximately. 0015 to .002". I also have at least one set of Redding Type-S or custom completion dies in the calibers I have the Forster FL dies, and a few others. They work well, but the Forster is just all around better.
Forster may not offer this as a standard service, but my 6.5x47 die was too long to set the shoulder back, so, with three fired cases mailed in with the die, they removed exactly enough material from the bottom of the die to push the shoulder. 003" when the die is screwed down to just touch the shellplate. Makes setup very easy!
But, with the 47 they offered this service to me, when I asked if they could do that same thing with another caliber, they really didn't seem to want to, so I didn't push it. Really no big deal if they can't, but, IMO, worth inquiring about.
Also, buying directly from Forster and having them hone the die to whatever dimension you want to achieve whatever neck tension you want might be cheaper and faster than paying shipping and waiting for two shipments from Brownells, Midway, etc
edit: two shipments meaning from Brownells and then to Forster
Forster may not offer this as a standard service, but my 6.5x47 die was too long to set the shoulder back, so, with three fired cases mailed in with the die, they removed exactly enough material from the bottom of the die to push the shoulder. 003" when the die is screwed down to just touch the shellplate. Makes setup very easy!
But, with the 47 they offered this service to me, when I asked if they could do that same thing with another caliber, they really didn't seem to want to, so I didn't push it. Really no big deal if they can't, but, IMO, worth inquiring about.
Also, buying directly from Forster and having them hone the die to whatever dimension you want to achieve whatever neck tension you want might be cheaper and faster than paying shipping and waiting for two shipments from Brownells, Midway, etc
edit: two shipments meaning from Brownells and then to Forster
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Also have multiple Forster and Redding micrometer seating dies. I usually give the nod to Forster because they are cheaper than Redding and work just as well. In fact, I think I read they came up with the design and Redding and others copied it.
+1
I started making .260 Remington and .308 Winchester match ammo about ten years ago (for NRA highpower and Palma) using that exact setup and it has made some insanely accurate ammo with little to no trouble.
I've gone round and round in my head about all the possible process combinations using neck turning/bushing dies/expander mandrels and at the end of the day I like the simplicity of running brass through one die and being done. Trim as necessary, anneal every other firing, and put case prep out of your mind.
Add a Forster micrometer seater and you're done buying dies. Oh, and don't forget to replace the die collars with Hornady Sure-Locks. Nothing better.
Awesome, I’ve finally decided what I’ll be getting then. I have the T-7 press and their are competition seating dies avaible..should I get that to set my set back or do you fellas just adjusting the die further down?
Shoot should’ve read this earlier before posting my last post haha. I’ll give Forester a call and see what they say. I’m not in a hurry to receive them since I’m just starting a build to shoot this caliber so I’ve got all sorts of time!
I will be feeding it Berger 140 gr or 140 hybrids and Lapua 139 gr scenar. Whichever I can find out of a sendero rifled proof research barrel. So if you guys have any loading advice with those bullets that would be greatly appreciated as well.
You should have read What? That Forster doesn't remove un necessary material from the bottom of perfectly functioning dies? But will if there is an issue....
Buy a Forster 6.5cm FL die and Ultra seater and move on to worrying about other things. You will be making accurate ammo in no time
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On how there’s certain ways to go about getting the extra .002 neck tension you were talking about. You said you had yours honed and Marksman10x said you could have Forster do it and I had replied to a different post asking if you guys got that with other alternative methods.
You got it! Thanks for the help, greatly appreciate it. Still relatively new to reloading especially rifle cartridges.
I've had no problems working up accurate loads with the basic $70 Redding set, but there's no harm in spending more if you want to.
The die already gives you .002 neck tension out of the box without honing. I don't want to confuse you but the die sizes the neck down more than that than the expander ball opens the neck up on the up stroke to give you .002 neck tension...
the reason we have them honed is to just have the neck squeezed to like .003 or .004 neck tension than use a mandrel to open it up to .002 neck tension. As a beginner you need not worry about any of this right now. Get a good grasp on making quality, accurate ammo with the Forster dies for now.
the reason we have them honed is to just have the neck squeezed to like .003 or .004 neck tension than use a mandrel to open it up to .002 neck tension. As a beginner you need not worry about any of this right now. Get a good grasp on making quality, accurate ammo with the Forster dies for now.
I just got my 6.5 Creedmoor dies from Lee. Dead length bullet seater and Lee's sizer/decapper (standard kind that sizes neck/shoulder/body, and pulls back through over an expander ball). Not a lot of money in them, and my case runout gauge showed nothing over 0.002" total swing of the dial, and the dial was on the same spot on all of them. I usually use the Redding body/shoulder bump die, Lee collet/mandrel neck sizing die, and a Forster benchrest seater, and get maybe a whisker less runout. I ordered them all, but the ones I usually use haven't arrived yet. This way (the old way) is quicker.
Ahhhhh!!! Yep, I was definitely on a different planet now I totally understand.
I would think that would work the neck more and make the brass last less unless your annealing and that helps? That’s just what I’ve read but you guys are the experts which is why I’m full of questions and there’s some misinformation I come across. I’ll definitely stick to what you’ve suggested. Thank you Padom.
It does but it’s a negligible amount. Your brass should still last many many firings. I took up annealing not for brass life but for consistent neck tension. Each firing they get harder, annealing brings them back to the same baseline each time. But after the first firing the hardness difference begins to taper off. But after you catch the reloading bug then you can tinker around with the mandrels and annealing etc.
Gotcha, what about neck turning? There your literally taking material off. Do you do that as well? I’ve looked at the Giruad case annealer but I don’t know I feel like spending that kind of money yet until after I buy the dies. I’ve been hit with that pesky bug already that’s why I come here for advice to get somewhat of the best things the first time around even if it costs more, so that I don’t have to buy something that could’ve done the job better later down the line. Dies would be a perfect example.
Don’t bother turning necks unless you have to for clearance issues or you reach the point that you think that’s the next avenue that you want to explore. Don’t just make them skinny for the hell of it because there is such a thing as too much and doing it incorrectly.
I highly recommend you buy a Forster full length sizing die and set it up according to the instructions that come with it. As others have said here (good advice) these are things you do not need to worry about as a new reloader:
- Neck sizing
- Bushing dies
- Neck expander mandrels
- Neck turning
- Primer pocket uniforming
Before you ever get into any of the above, getting a brass annealer will do you more good. After looking at all the systems out there I'm going with the salt bath method as the best compromise (for me) between cost, process control, throughput, and safety.
Things you do need to do:
- Deburring flash holes (this depends on the brand of brass, and is a once and done operation)
- Full length sizing with GOOD dies
- Trimming cases to length every few firings
- Chamfering and deburring the case mouth after trimming
- Consistent powder measuring
- Correct bullet seating (you've picked an excellent tool for this)
- Neck sizing
- Bushing dies
- Neck expander mandrels
- Neck turning
- Primer pocket uniforming
Before you ever get into any of the above, getting a brass annealer will do you more good. After looking at all the systems out there I'm going with the salt bath method as the best compromise (for me) between cost, process control, throughput, and safety.
Things you do need to do:
- Deburring flash holes (this depends on the brand of brass, and is a once and done operation)
- Full length sizing with GOOD dies
- Trimming cases to length every few firings
- Chamfering and deburring the case mouth after trimming
- Consistent powder measuring
- Correct bullet seating (you've picked an excellent tool for this)
That’s exactly what I’m going to get and the micrometer bullet seater from them as well. I need to look into a good a good case trimmer as what I have right now is an adaptor for my Lyman case prep center and there is a little wobble. I was thinking possibly Sinclair’s Micrometer trimmer.
Mill have to youtube that method as I’ve never herd of it. Just machine operated, drill operated and filling with water and turning off lights haha. So most the things you listed the Lyman case prep center takes care of and the powder measuring is done on the RCBS Chargemaster light I have. So I’d like to think I have most of the basics covered other than the trimmer and annealer.
