Rifle Scopes *JUST RELEASED* Nightforce NX8 FFP 1-8x24mm 30mm Tube & ATACR F1 1-8x24mm 34mm Tube Models

redneckbmxer24

Four Star General
Full Member
Minuteman
Supporter
  • Jan 15, 2005
    12,533
    9,725
    Gulf Coast, FL
    The new Nightforce NX8 and ATACR F1 1-8x24's are released and available for pre-order at Euro Optic.

    It looks like the NX8 is a 30mm with capped windage and uncapped zero stop elevation and the ATACR is fully capped with 34mm tube. I should have my NX8 MRAD next week.


    Links below:

    NX8 MRAD Details

    NX8 MOA Details

    ATACR F1 MRAD 1-8x24
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: 617hotcan
    Worth $500 more than the Trijicon?

    Edit. $1500 more for the 34 mm lol

    I can't comment on these new NF's yet but I do have a few of their 1-4's and those are great but this is obviously apples to oranges. I had the Trijicon briefly and while it wasn't terrible I wasn't impressed, I kept it for less than a month. I was actually about to pull the trigger on a S&B 1-8 a few weeks ago right at the same time I saw people talking about NF possibly releasing a 1-8 soon and held off.

    I'll be able to give you a solid answer next week but based on my experience with the Trijicon and overall experience with NF in general I would say yes it should easily be worth the cost difference and probably more.
     
    Note that both have very bright, daylight visible reticle illumination.

    Is that based on having seen them personally? Or the vendor's marketing blurb...? (serious question... not trying to be a smart-ass... just that I've heard that one before, only to be seriously disappointed...)
     
    I prefer a 30mm tube anyways. The price point is lower than expected for that one.

    eta: 17oz fuck yeah!

    Exactly. I prefer exposed zero stop elevation turrets and the NX8 with them in a lighter package and the lower price point is a win for me. Not to mention they’re shipping next week with the ATACR’s just a little further out.
     
    Two scopes, not just one

    IMG_0078.JPG
     
    Frank, will you be posting any more pics? A pic of the ATACR turrets with the caps off would be awesome. I’m probably not the only one that’s really curious about them and I’m not seeing any pics anywhere.
     
    Mmmmmmmmmkay why is the FOV significantly less on the 34mm compared to that of the 30mm???
    Given the FOV and the lighter weight, the 30mm is a no-brainer as far as I can tell.
     
    Nightforce is claiming day bright, so that may be the biggest difference. With the March low end variables, illumination is a weak point.

    ILya

    I think the March's are very niche. They are the only LPVs I know of with a parallax adjustment. I'm a big March fan, but I'm much more interested in the NX8.
     
    I will definitely have to check these out at SHOT Show. I’m very, very excited. I had T&E’d the 1-4 several years ago. Even then, it was outdated. Been waiting on NF to catch up to the LPV market. Really glad to see these being brought to the market.
     
    Is that based on having seen them personally? Or the vendor's marketing blurb...? (serious question... not trying to be a smart-ass... just that I've heard that one before, only to be seriously disappointed...)

    I have handled both the NX8 and ATACR 1-8x personally, and can confirm that they are easily daylight bright. It's hard to see from the reticle pictures, but the illuminated ring at 1x, lit up, looks much like a reflex dot. I had no concerns about acquisition of this dot under bright conditions (my normal digs are Aimpoint T2s and Kahles 1-6 G4B).
     
    Now at $1,715, with an elevation turret, zero stop, and at 17oz I can see what NX8 brings to the market but NXS series glass and the overall feel of the NSX series is definitely on the low end of the high end glass out there today.

    The ATACR on the other hand I'm stuggling with. 21oz for Capped turrets? With the ATACR at $2,744 I'm not seeing what this scope does that the MK8 doesn't. If it were significantly lighter or offered the same quality as the MK8 for significantly less cost I'd sing a different tune. Right now I'm seeing MK8's at Universal Mania with the TMR for $2,454 or $3,124 for the H27D at guns midwest. If you shop around and catch it at the right time I've seen the H27D for $3,000, the extra $250 over the ATACR for turrets seems like a good investment to me especially when the ATACR is only 2oz lighter than the MK8 without them. I recall reading that the ATACR was supposed to blow the MK8 out of the water but from looking at the price, the weight, the features, the specs, and if the ATACR's glass quality and overall feel is similar to the rest of the ATACR line I'm not it seeing it so far. Maybe once I get my hands on of these ATACR's I'll understand. The MK8's glass, durability, and tracking ability are either equil or better than the best optics on the market hopefully the ED glass in the ATACR can actually bring something to the MK8 so far in LPV's in 7yrs that the MK8's been out no one else has come close.

    As for the 34mm vs 30mm maintube I agree that with an LPV it's unnecessary but it's not necessarily undesirable. Having a larger maintube does add durability. One of the drawbacks is people tend to think that it adds a significant amount of weight but that's not true. Go and look at somewhat compact optics like the ATACR 4-16 or the S&B Ultrashorts both weigh 30-32oz and have a much smaller body than their larger 5-25x26 brothers yet they weigh nearly the same. The scopes aluminium bodies aren't what add significant weight it's mostly the lenses and the turrets that do.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ajl
    Now at $1,715, with an elevation turret, zero stop, and at 17oz I can see what NX8 brings to the market but NXS series glass and the overall feel of the NSX series is definitely on the low end of the high end glass out there today.

    The ATACR on the other hand I'm stuggling with. 21oz for Capped turrets? With the ATACR at $2,744 I'm not seeing what this scope does that the MK8 doesn't. If it were significantly lighter or offered the same quality as the MK8 for significantly less cost I'd sing a different tune. Right now I'm seeing MK8's at Universal Mania with the TMR for $2,454 or $3,124 for the H27D at guns midwest. If you shop around and catch it at the right time I've seen the H27D for $3,000, the extra $250 over the ATACR for turrets seems like a good investment to me especially when the ATACR is only 2oz lighter than the MK8 without them. I recall reading that the ATACR was supposed to blow the MK8 out of the water but from looking at the price, the weight, the features, the specs, and if the ATACR's glass quality and overall feel is similar to the rest of the ATACR line I'm not it seeing it so far. Maybe once I get my hands on of these ATACR's I'll understand. The MK8's glass, durability, and tracking ability are either equil or better than the best optics on the market hopefully the ED glass in the ATACR can actually bring something to the MK8 so far in LPV's in 7yrs that the MK8's been out no one else has come close.

    As for the 34mm vs 30mm maintube I agree that with an LPV it's unnecessary but it's not necessarily undesirable. Having a larger maintube does add durability. One of the drawbacks is people tend to think that it adds a significant amount of weight but that's not true. Go and look at somewhat compact optics like the ATACR 4-16 or the S&B Ultrashorts both weigh 30-32oz and have a much smaller body than their larger 5-25x26 brothers yet they weigh nearly the same. The scopes aluminium bodies aren't what add significant weight it's mostly the lenses and the turrets that do.

    I do really like the CQBSS and I LOVE the H27D reticle but the CQBSS isn’t a true 1x like these are and that pinch turret drives me insane. Other than that I do like the optic and I think it’s one of the best 1-8’s out there.

    The glass on the NXS line is very good though, I don’t know what these use but I can tell you that from experience using NXS’s with NV clip ons that the resolution is very high.

    I’m sure the ATACR will be a hit especially for those wanting capped turrets, but they’re going to sell a metric shit load of NX8’s. Not just because of the lower price point compared to the ATACR but also what it offers and the price point compared to similar scopes. It appears that NF really hit the nail on the head with their 1-8’s. I’ve been waiting a decade for them to roll out a 1-6/8 FFP and they not only did it, but they did two entirely different models. This is by far the most excited I’ve ever been about a new optic.

    I love that these use a regular illumination knob too. It’s also really cool that the NX8 weighs in exactly the same as their 1-4 while also being .05” shorter. .05” is really nothing size wise but it’s still shorter vs longer.
     
    Guys,

    Have been getting quite a few questions on these guys already so we put up some helpful images: Here are reticle pics as well at 1x and 8x showing full detail:

    NF 1-8 RETICLE PICS

    Quoting dumb and dumberer: "It's so shooort! :eek:

    Jason

    Damnit, I wish I hadn’t seen than FC-DM reticle in the ATACR. I really really like that, I think I’m going to need one of those too.
     
    I'd be interested in a glass/quality comparison to the K16i/Z8i, Minox ZP8, and March Shorty.

    I've owned the ZP8, but am having trouble pulling the trigger on another LPV. I can't ever seem to get past non-1x magnification at the low end. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's something that can ever be resolved in a traditional optic.
     
    Last edited:
    I do really like the CQBSS and I LOVE the H27D reticle but the CQBSS isn’t a true 1x like these are and that pinch turret drives me insane. Other than that I do like the optic and I think it’s one of the best 1-8’s out there.

    The glass on the NXS line is very good though, I don’t know what these use but I can tell you that from experience using NXS’s with NV clip ons that the resolution is very high.

    I’m sure the ATACR will be a hit especially for those wanting capped turrets, but they’re going to sell a metric shit load of NX8’s. Not just because of the lower price point compared to the ATACR but also what it offers and the price point compared to similar scopes. It appears that NF really hit the nail on the head with their 1-8’s. I’ve been waiting a decade for them to roll out a 1-6/8 FFP and they not only did it, but they did two entirely different models. This is by far the most excited I’ve ever been about a new optic.

    I love that these use a regular illumination knob too. It’s also really cool that the NX8 weighs in exactly the same as their 1-4 while also being .05” shorter. .05” is really nothing size wise but it’s still shorter vs longer.

    I've tried most of the LPV's on the market and haven't come across any LPV ever that is an absolute completely true 1x they all have a very small amount of magnification. Leupold is the only manufacturer which is upfront about it as they have a history of stating exact magnification levels of all their scopes in their specs and I appreciate that type of integrity. Whereas other manufactures state one magnification level and actual testing reveals a slightly different truth. Carl Zant of PRS blog did testing (I'll link that for you) on this and Nightforce is one of many manufacturers (most do) which claim a slightly different magnification level than actual. So when NF calls it a 1x that doesn't mean it's literally 1x if it were actually measured it may be 1.08x or 1.1x who knows because NF unlike Leupold doesn't have a history of stating exact magnification levels of their scopes. 1.1x of the MK8 is a very small amount of magnification it's easy to use both eyes open with a 1.1 with no issue and never notice that it's 1.1x. Other LPV's have a small amount of magnification as well even some red dots like the the MRO does and I'd be willing to bet that the NF is no exception again it's that Leupold probably to their peril is the only manufacturer up front about it.

    I'm surprised you don't like the pinch turn turrets I love them I think they're the perfect locking system the MK8's turrets are always locked to prevent them becoming accidentally moved, an awsome feature. They require a such a light pinch I never notice actuating them they just do their job without me having to do anything like pull the turret up to lock it or anything else it's just so fast, efficient, and hastle free.

    NXS glass hasn't been without criticism over the years even right here on SH. They don't offer S&B or MK8 levels of quality sorry guys I know you're excited about the new release but they don't. NSX glass is good glass but not great glass. It definitely fills a nitch in the market of offering better performance than the Trijicon. NXS series scopes also really do offer alot for the money no doubt the NX8 will do well.

    I still can't wrap my head around the fact the ATACR doesn't have turrets with a zero stop and locking turret feature especially given the price and weight which are similar to the MK8 that has both features. At 21oz and $2,700 I don't like the idea of depending on a reticle and only a reticle and being forced to use a hold over. Problem is at extended ranges if that rifle is canted at all and the shooter doesn't realize it will result in placing the shot incorrectly. It's easy to cant a rifle even very slightly and not know it especially on unlevel ground or when in an awkward shooting position.
     
    Last edited:
    I've tried most of the LPV's on the market and haven't come across any LPV ever that is an absolute completely true 1x they all have a very small amount of magnification. Leupold is the only manufacturer which is upfront about it as they have a history of stating exact magnification levels of all their scopes in their specs and I appreciate that type of integrity. Whereas other manufactures state one magnification level and actual testing reveals a slightly different truth. Carl Zant of PRS blog did testing (I'll link that for you) on this and Nightforce is one of many manufacturers (most do) which claim a slightly different magnification level than actual. So when NF calls it a 1x that doesn't mean it's literally 1x if it were actually measured it may be 1.08x or 1.1x who knows because NF unlike Leupold doesn't have a history of stating exact magnification levels of their scopes. 1.1x of the MK8 is a very small amount of magnification it's easy to use both eyes open with a 1.1 with no issue and never notice that it's 1.1x. Other LPV's have a small amount of magnification as well even some red dots like the the MRO does and I'd be willing to bet that the NF is no exception again it's that Leupold probably to their peril is the only manufacturer up front about it.

    I'm surprised you don't like the pinch turn turrets I love them I think they're the perfect locking system the MK8's turrets are always locked to prevent them becoming accidentally moved, an awsome feature. They require a such a light pinch I never notice actuating them they just do their job without me having to do anything like pull the turret up to lock it or anything else it's just so fast, efficient, and hastle free.

    NXS glass hasn't been without criticism over the years even right here on SH. They don't offer S&B or MK8 levels of quality sorry guys I know you're excited about the new release but they don't. NSX glass is good glass but not great glass. It definitely fills a nitch in the market of offering better performance than the Trijicon. NXS series scopes also really do offer alot for the money no doubt the NX8 will do well.

    I still can't wrap my head around the fact the ATACR doesn't have turrets with a zero stop and locking turret feature especially given the price and weight which are similar to the MK8 that has both features. At 21oz and $2,700 I don't like the idea of depending on a reticle and only a reticle and being forced to use a hold over. Problem is at extended ranges if that rifle is canted at all and the shooter doesn't realize it will result in placing the shot incorrectly. It's easy to cant a rifle even very slightly and not know it especially on unlevel ground or when in an awkward shooting position.

    If I was mostly holding I wouldn't mind the pinch turrets as much but I dial a lot with a 1-8 and it's just kind of annoying to have to always pinch it. The only locking turret designs I'm a fan of are S&B's where you can either lock or unlock them or the NF 4-16x42's turret.

    I can see why they offered capped turrets, a lot of people want them and there's a good chance that optic came about because of a military request and that's how it is. With that said though I would order an ATACR F1 1-8x24 the instant it's available (just like I did the NX8) if they offered a version with the 4-16x42's elevation turret for a little more $$$. IMO that would be the ultimate 1-8 optic. Combine it with the NX8 line and they've got the 1-8 market on lockdown.

    I really do disagree as far as the NXS glass and I've had a lot of them mostly in the form of 3.5-15X50 F1's plus some in SFP, and several of the compact optics. I rate it in the "great glass" category and when you get their you're really splitting hairs as you're already well beyond what's considered serviceable. In lower power optics glass quality isn't quite as noticeable as the same glass in a high power optic, IMO that's where they really begin to separate. But is the glass as good as S&B's overall? Not really but in terms of resolution which is most important to me they are VERY close. I don't think the ATACR glass is quite as good as S&B's in any category except resolution either, but it's still phenomenal glass and wouldn't limit anyone from doing what they need to. It's really splitting hairs when you get up there. Feature set, eyebox, and reliability are far greater performance factors at these levels than a touch better glass here and there.
     
    Nightforce Optics Adds Riflescope to
    Renowned ATACR™ Series
    New ATACR 1-8x24 F1 Delivers Precision Near and Far
    S.gif
    Lavonia, GA, U.S. - (December 15, 2017) Nightforce® Optics, leading manufacturer and marketer of premium sport optics and related products including riflescopes, spotting scopes, and accessories, today unveiled their latest Advanced Tactical Riflescope, (known as ATACR™), in a 1-8 power with a 24mm objective lens. The new ATACR™ 1-8x24 F1 is engineered and built as the ultimate low-power variable riflescope. It features a Nightforce intelligent first focal plane reticle, pristine ED glass, bright daylight illumination, and is presented in a lightweight, compact package.

    "We originally designed the Nightforce ATACR first focal plane riflescopes for our military customers," said Nightforce Director of Sales and Marketing, Gordon Myers. "They remain the foundation for our MilSpec riflescopes to this day. ATACR optics are well-received by long range shooters, because we combine battle-proven ruggedness with high quality optics and functionality. Our new ATACR 1-8x24 F1 incorporates all the advantages of the ATACR family in one of the most compact and adaptable 1-8 power optics available in the marketplace today," he added.
    S.gif
    d5cc8f95-4a3f-462e-a915-ccdbc9fe1321.png


    "The new ATACR 8 power characterizes the Nightforce theme of 'Rugged, Reliable, Repeatable™", said Alan Stilwell, North America Sales Manager. "At dusk, dawn, or mid-day; whether you're shooting close-quarters or long-range distances, the versatile ATACR 1-8x24 F1 delivers a superior field of view and is exceptionally precise. This riflescope's bomb-proof reliability, extremely low-profile adjustments, and this model's intelligent FC-DM® reticle, is robust enough to partner up with any designated marksman or competitor."

    Measuring a mere 10 inches in length and weighing 21 ounces, the ATACR 1-8x24 F1 is rich with standard mission-critical features including a daylight-visible, center red dot for rapid engagements, and multi-coated ED glass that furnishes superb light transmission, brilliant images, and exceptional color contrast. The 8x zoom helps locate, identify, and engage targets at maximum effective ranges. While the low-profile, true .1 Mil-Radian adjustments are capped to prevent accidental adjustment.

    "We united legendary Nightforce toughness with precision-engineered components and high-tech expertise, resulting in the most technologically advanced optic
    S.gif
    [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"89","width":"350","src":"http:\/\/files.constantcontact.com\/95cca6bf401\/61bf6eed-24bd-4a31-a0fc-f4cd32436498.jpg"}[/IMG2]
    Nightforce has ever offered," according to Stilwell. "The new ATACR 1-8x24 F1 is mechanically unrivaled to withstand a lifetime of harsh recoil so that years from now, your scope will be as precise as the day it was new," he said.
    NIGHTFORCE ATACR 1-8x24 F1 SPECIFICATIONS:
    • Focal plane: First
    • Objective outer diameter: 34 mm
    • Field of view @100 yards/100 meters 1x: 11.26 mm | 96.1 ft | 29.3 m
    • Field of view @100 yards/100 meters 8x: 3.19 mm | 13.1 ft | 4 m
    • Eye relief: 3.74" | 95 mm
    • Internal adjustment range (Mil): e: 30 | w: 30
    • Click value: .1 MIL-RADIAN
    • Parallax adjustment: Fixed at 125 m
    • Tube diameter: 1.34"/34 mm
    • Eyepiece outer diameter: 46 mm
    • Overall length (in/mm): 10.08/256
    • Weight (oz/g): 21/595
    • Mounting length (in/mm): 5.67/144
    • PTL (Power Throw Lever): Standard
    • Reticles available: FC-DM™
    • Illumination: Daylight visible, externally adjustable
    • Elevation feature: Capped, finger-adjustable
    • Covers: Tenebraex® included
    • MSRP: $2,800

    The new Nightforce ATACR 1-8x24 F1, and the entire line of Nightforce premium optics and accessories will be on display at SHOT Show 2018 in Las Vegas, NV. Please visit Nightforce in booth # 20449.

    For information on the new Nightforce ATACR 1-8x24 F1 riflescope, click here.
    For further information on Nightforce Optics, please visit www.nightforceoptics.com, or email Strategic Marketing Manager, Fred Karl at [email protected].

    Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, and Pinterest for social media updates.
     
    I would order an ATACR F1 1-8x24 the instant it's available (just like I did the NX8) if they offered a version with the 4-16x42's elevation turret for a little more $$$. IMO that would be the ultimate 1-8 optic.

    I agree with this. I was expecting the standard ATACR turrets. I understand that they can’t please everyone, but I think 8X is enough magnification that I would rather dial elevation than hold at distance.
     
    I agree with this. I was expecting the standard ATACR turrets. I understand that they can’t please everyone, but I think 8X is enough magnification that I would rather dial elevation than hold at distance.

    I agree with both of you, but I think the vast majority these days are those either in a 3 gun/competition role, or a military role, where it involves multi distance targets and fast engagement, so the consensus tends to use hold overs and Christmas tree style reticles. Where I shoot, its all known distances and nothing moves, so I prone out and prefer to dial elevation and hold wind, but if I wasn't lazy and had a huge open area to myself, id probably setup targets from 50-800m and practice using holds and fast engagement over various distances for fun. I found the downside of the Leupold stuff, even with exposed turrets, was that id max out the elevation before hitting the stop, and still have to hold the remainder of the needed elevation to make hits on my furthest steel (and I hated the "open" center for small wind holds). The 4-16 turret would be pretty awesome though...
     
    I agree with this. I was expecting the standard ATACR turrets. I understand that they can’t please everyone, but I think 8X is enough magnification that I would rather dial elevation than hold at distance.

    I like the option to accurately hold both elevation and wind or dial elevation and hold wind with the same optic based on the individual scenario. Just changing the elevation turret would allow both methods to be used in the same optic and it would literally be perfect. Not saying people still won’t find things to complain about (they always will) but I think this is a reasonable request that would be appealing to a lot of users. I would expect it to come at an increased price of course but it should still be within the prices of the competition (Leupold, March, S&B) but absolutely top them all in feature set at that point.

    If this was available yesterday when I ordered the NX8 I still would have gotten an NX8 too but I absolutely would have ordered this. I have used for all of them and either way I now need to buy more rifles to put some 1-4’s on that the NX8’s will replace, or sell off yet more stuff that got upgraded.

     
    FWIW (hoping I don't get screamed at), I DID see a NF ATACR 1-8 with the 4-16 exposed locking turret when I was doing the demos... not sure why it wasn't in the first production run, but one DOES physically exist. Maybe NF will elaborate more on if/when it will become production.
     
    I agree with both of you, but I think the vast majority these days are those either in a 3 gun/competition role, or a military role, where it involves multi distance targets and fast engagement, so the consensus tends to use hold overs and Christmas tree style reticles. Where I shoot, its all known distances and nothing moves, so I prone out and prefer to dial elevation and hold wind, but if I wasn't lazy and had a huge open area to myself, id probably setup targets from 50-800m and practice using holds and fast engagement over various distances for fun. I found the downside of the Leupold stuff, even with exposed turrets, was that id max out the elevation before hitting the stop, and still have to hold the remainder of the needed elevation to make hits on my furthest steel (and I hated the "open" center for small wind holds). The 4-16 turret would be pretty awesome though...

    That’s why you offer it as it is with the FC-DM reticle but with the addition of the 4-16x42 locking zero stop turret. Users that definitely want capped can buy the current version and save a few bucks or can buy the upgraded turret model and it will have the benefits of capped since it’s locking with the option of having a better turret for dialing. Plus those who just want to dial have what they want. Both are left with a feature they wouldn’t need but wouldn’t hinder performance at all either.

    Plus they have the options to do both when they figure out using both methods is far more dynamic.
     
    That’s why you offer it as it is with the FC-DM reticle but with the addition of the 4-16x42 locking zero stop turret. Users that definitely want capped can buy the current version and save a few bucks or can buy the upgraded turret model and it will have the benefits of capped since it’s locking with the option of having a better turret for dialing. Plus those who just want to dial have what they want. Both are left with a feature they wouldn’t need but wouldn’t hinder performance at all either.

    Plus they have the options to do both when they figure out using both methods is far more dynamic.

    Its coming... just not during the preliminary launch :) I wasn't able to get any more information than that. It unfortunately wont be on my ATACR 1-8, but as soon as there is a part number, I will have one on order.
     
    I'm curious how the NX8 compares to the Trijicon Accupower 1-8x28. I ordered one of those for Black Friday. The NX8 is definitely lighter and more compact. The ATACR's FOV leaves a lot to be desired; especially at that price point.
     
    I would like to hear how the illumination is turned on and off. If it can turn itself off after an hour or turn its self on by being moved that would be a very nice feature for a defensive weapon.
     
    I'm curious how the NX8 compares to the Trijicon Accupower 1-8x28. I ordered one of those for Black Friday. The NX8 is definitely lighter and more compact. The ATACR's FOV leaves a lot to be desired; especially at that price point.

    The ATACR has a HUGE eye box... it will make the FOV seem much larger than the specs state. Loving or hating a scope based solely on what a piece of paper says wont be doing anyone justice. I know it will be a while before these are sitting in someone's retail store so you can play with them and compare for yourself, but rest assured, a lot of people are excited about these new NF scopes for a reason! Especially those, such as myself, who have had the opportunity to see them in person.
     
    How's the eye box on the NX8?

    Also, are there any plans on making the exposed elevation turret lockable in the future?

    Same as the 1-4... bit tighter since its a compact scope.

    There currently IS a locking turret (same as the 4-16 ATACR) ATACR 1-8, but its not currently in production. Ive seen it, it exists, its just not on the preliminary production run for reasons I don't know.