Advanced Marksmanship Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
- Thread starter onechance
- Start date
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
One of my shooting partners has one and it seems to be a solid unit. I have one of the 2500's and it works for me, I mainly use it for wind at the firing position, I haven't advanced far enough to start adding in all of the enviornmental conditions. I am still learning and reading and sending rounds down range and I hope to one day be able to consistently make first round hits on steel at various distances in any kind of weather conditions. (I am sure that is everyone's goal and keeps us all going to the range week in and week out)
One of my shooting partners has one and it seems to be a solid unit. I have one of the 2500's and it works for me, I mainly use it for wind at the firing position, I haven't advanced far enough to start adding in all of the enviornmental conditions. I am still learning and reading and sending rounds down range and I hope to one day be able to consistently make first round hits on steel at various distances in any kind of weather conditions. (I am sure that is everyone's goal and keeps us all going to the range week in and week out)
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I have used the 4000 for years, and it has been very reliable.
I have used the 4000 for years, and it has been very reliable.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO it is far too expensive for what it does and ease of use. I think there are better solutions for a lot less money. </div></div>
When you take into account everything I use when I go shoot, the Kestrel is a very small percentage of the overall cost. Having the ability to accurately identify wind and environmental conditions at my location is worth that small cost to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO it is far too expensive for what it does and ease of use. I think there are better solutions for a lot less money. </div></div>
When you take into account everything I use when I go shoot, the Kestrel is a very small percentage of the overall cost. Having the ability to accurately identify wind and environmental conditions at my location is worth that small cost to me.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I use it to input the environmental conditions into BulletFlight or during comps to give me the DA for reference against my DA cards. I also like to practice my wind reading by guessing the wind speed and then using the Kestrel to find the actual wind speed.
It works you don't have to worry about that.
I use it to input the environmental conditions into BulletFlight or during comps to give me the DA for reference against my DA cards. I also like to practice my wind reading by guessing the wind speed and then using the Kestrel to find the actual wind speed.
It works you don't have to worry about that.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
It does what it states it will do as do all Kestrels. I can't fault the quality or accuracy of their products. I just think the price point on this particular model is too high relative to what you get in some of the others. I am in no way suggesting there is a performance issue.
It does what it states it will do as do all Kestrels. I can't fault the quality or accuracy of their products. I just think the price point on this particular model is too high relative to what you get in some of the others. I am in no way suggesting there is a performance issue.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Most seem to have missed the point. the op was looking for info on the 4500 WITH ballistic programs .
im also curious to hear what people think who have actualy used them
Most seem to have missed the point. the op was looking for info on the 4500 WITH ballistic programs .
im also curious to hear what people think who have actualy used them
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I have tried, and been unable to find out, if the issue with the Horus program that was made for PDAs (I assume they are using a version of that in these Kestrels) has been fixed. The issue was (and still would be, unless they have fixed it in their updates, which I have not seen) that the program returns elevation numbers that are not accurate with any rifle or caliber I have tried to use the program with. There are other programs on the market which have worked much better in that regard. These errors are of no importance unless you are shooting long range, but long range is where one really needs such a program to be accurate. I am sure that most of us can easily get to 600, or even further, using the reticle, or specific sighting procedures, and thus would not really need such a program unless we were shooting farther than that.
Having a ballistic program in your wind meter is only useful if the ballistic program gives you numbers that you can actually use.
I have tried, and been unable to find out, if the issue with the Horus program that was made for PDAs (I assume they are using a version of that in these Kestrels) has been fixed. The issue was (and still would be, unless they have fixed it in their updates, which I have not seen) that the program returns elevation numbers that are not accurate with any rifle or caliber I have tried to use the program with. There are other programs on the market which have worked much better in that regard. These errors are of no importance unless you are shooting long range, but long range is where one really needs such a program to be accurate. I am sure that most of us can easily get to 600, or even further, using the reticle, or specific sighting procedures, and thus would not really need such a program unless we were shooting farther than that.
Having a ballistic program in your wind meter is only useful if the ballistic program gives you numbers that you can actually use.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I was all set on getting one of these, I guess its back to the drawing board or doing things the old fashioned way. I was curious about one thing and that is the 4500v says it can give wind direction, does it do this by itself or do you need the wind vane kit?
I was all set on getting one of these, I guess its back to the drawing board or doing things the old fashioned way. I was curious about one thing and that is the 4500v says it can give wind direction, does it do this by itself or do you need the wind vane kit?
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I use one and. It's by far the most accurate ballistics computer I've ever used. It's been perfect to the the 10th mil every time. I'm extremely happy with mine.
I use one and. It's by far the most accurate ballistics computer I've ever used. It's been perfect to the the 10th mil every time. I'm extremely happy with mine.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
To the OP... are you asking about the kestrel 4500NV in conjunction any ballistic program/device, or the kestrel 4500NV W/ATrag???
To the OP... are you asking about the kestrel 4500NV in conjunction any ballistic program/device, or the kestrel 4500NV W/ATrag???
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
franky, any of the Kestrels can be used to determine wind direction, without a wind vane kit, by holding it in different positions until you find the position where the wind reading is highest.
franky, any of the Kestrels can be used to determine wind direction, without a wind vane kit, by holding it in different positions until you find the position where the wind reading is highest.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I used earlier version of Atrag and found it to be accurate. You might wish to read this: Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.
With respect to the wind function, the best use of that is to learn to estimate the wind <span style="font-style: italic">without</span> it. When you are actually shooting, you won't have time to use it - by the time you have measured the wind with the Kestrel, the wind will have changed.
So, when you are not shooting, estimate the wind without it. Then measure it with the Kestrel. Repeat until you are pretty good without the Kestrel. That will improve your ability to estimate the wind when shooting.
Ballistics programs are fun to play with, and a great experimental tool for learning what matters. However, these days I carry a Density Altitude dope card in the field, along with some way to measure the barometric pressure and temperature.
That might be my Kestrel 4000, or, if I'm traveling light, my Casio Pathfinder watch and a cheap zipper-pull thermometer.
I used earlier version of Atrag and found it to be accurate. You might wish to read this: Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.
With respect to the wind function, the best use of that is to learn to estimate the wind <span style="font-style: italic">without</span> it. When you are actually shooting, you won't have time to use it - by the time you have measured the wind with the Kestrel, the wind will have changed.
So, when you are not shooting, estimate the wind without it. Then measure it with the Kestrel. Repeat until you are pretty good without the Kestrel. That will improve your ability to estimate the wind when shooting.
Ballistics programs are fun to play with, and a great experimental tool for learning what matters. However, these days I carry a Density Altitude dope card in the field, along with some way to measure the barometric pressure and temperature.
That might be my Kestrel 4000, or, if I'm traveling light, my Casio Pathfinder watch and a cheap zipper-pull thermometer.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
At the time that I found the errors in ATrag, I was also using other programs. With the same inputs, some of the other programs gave me similar outputs to ATrag, but some did not, and, of those, at the time, one was much better in terms of giving numbers that actually matched what my bullets were doing. ATrag always gave me elevation figures which were too high. Therefore, I do not think my inputs were the problem.
I have read the article you mentioned, Lindy. Good article, by the way.
At the time that I found the errors in ATrag, I was also using other programs. With the same inputs, some of the other programs gave me similar outputs to ATrag, but some did not, and, of those, at the time, one was much better in terms of giving numbers that actually matched what my bullets were doing. ATrag always gave me elevation figures which were too high. Therefore, I do not think my inputs were the problem.
I have read the article you mentioned, Lindy. Good article, by the way.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
bigsky, whether accuracy to the tenth of a mil is sufficient to be useful at extended ranges depends on the size of the targets one is shooting. I am glad that that level is good for you. Unfortunately, it is not good for me.
bigsky, whether accuracy to the tenth of a mil is sufficient to be useful at extended ranges depends on the size of the targets one is shooting. I am glad that that level is good for you. Unfortunately, it is not good for me.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
A tenth of a mil at 1k is 3.6". Are you saying that if you were holding center of target a hit 3.6" away is not good enough?
A tenth of a mil at 1k is 3.6". Are you saying that if you were holding center of target a hit 3.6" away is not good enough?
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used earlier version of Atrag and found it to be accurate. You might wish to read this: Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.
With respect to the wind function, the best use of that is to learn to estimate the wind <span style="font-style: italic">without</span> it. When you are actually shooting, you won't have time to use it - by the time you have measured the wind with the Kestrel, the wind will have changed.
So, when you are not shooting, estimate the wind without it. Then measure it with the Kestrel. Repeat until you are pretty good without the Kestrel. That will improve your ability to estimate the wind when shooting.
Ballistics programs are fun to play with, and a great experimental tool for learning what matters. However, these days I carry a Density Altitude dope card in the field, along with some way to measure the barometric pressure and temperature.
That might be my Kestrel 4000, or, if I'm traveling light, my Casio Pathfinder watch and a cheap zipper-pull thermometer.
</div></div>
What Lindy says,...I have the PLRF 15C/NOMAD/KESTREL 4500NV setup but for ease of use and in the field a decent dope card and altitude density work, plain and simple.
A dope card costs next to nothing, whilst all the fancy kit combined with PDA etc may come to more than the rig you are shooting!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used earlier version of Atrag and found it to be accurate. You might wish to read this: Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.
With respect to the wind function, the best use of that is to learn to estimate the wind <span style="font-style: italic">without</span> it. When you are actually shooting, you won't have time to use it - by the time you have measured the wind with the Kestrel, the wind will have changed.
So, when you are not shooting, estimate the wind without it. Then measure it with the Kestrel. Repeat until you are pretty good without the Kestrel. That will improve your ability to estimate the wind when shooting.
Ballistics programs are fun to play with, and a great experimental tool for learning what matters. However, these days I carry a Density Altitude dope card in the field, along with some way to measure the barometric pressure and temperature.
That might be my Kestrel 4000, or, if I'm traveling light, my Casio Pathfinder watch and a cheap zipper-pull thermometer.
</div></div>
What Lindy says,...I have the PLRF 15C/NOMAD/KESTREL 4500NV setup but for ease of use and in the field a decent dope card and altitude density work, plain and simple.
A dope card costs next to nothing, whilst all the fancy kit combined with PDA etc may come to more than the rig you are shooting!
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
blklabs, it depends on the size of the target. 3.6" from center may be fine if the target is 7.2" or more in diameter, but if the target is under 7.2" in diameter, then 3.6" from center is a complete miss.
blklabs, it depends on the size of the target. 3.6" from center may be fine if the target is 7.2" or more in diameter, but if the target is under 7.2" in diameter, then 3.6" from center is a complete miss.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
A tenth of a mil is also about a third of a minute of angle. No one is shooting targets that small at 1000 yards with a realistic expectation of hitting them on the first shot.
And no one has a ballistic program which is more accurate at distances past 500 yards than a tenth of a mil. Those inclined to believe otherwise might find this enlightening: Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies
A tenth of a mil is also about a third of a minute of angle. No one is shooting targets that small at 1000 yards with a realistic expectation of hitting them on the first shot.
And no one has a ballistic program which is more accurate at distances past 500 yards than a tenth of a mil. Those inclined to believe otherwise might find this enlightening: Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Lindy, I respect you highly, so please do not take this wrong. There are indeed people who can get first round hits on targets that small (smaller, actually, such as standard size clay birds, which are a little over 4 " in diameter) most of the time (though certainly not all the time). I do not claim to be one of them, but I am going to be. One of those people is my teacher. Presently, I am getting first round hits on standard clay birds at 1000 yards about 4 tries out of 10, and I do not care one bit whether anyone believes that or not. The more I practice, the higher that percentage will go.
With all due, considerable, respect, you may be a world authority on shooting techniques, information, etc., but you have no way of knowing what "no one is doing."
For the record, ATrag has always given high elevation numbers for me, while Exbal has always been significantly better. I realize that, for the shooting most are doing, the difference is moot, but I would hate to see someone not try to beat that skill level because someone, whose opinion they respect, told them it was not possible.
Lindy, I respect you highly, so please do not take this wrong. There are indeed people who can get first round hits on targets that small (smaller, actually, such as standard size clay birds, which are a little over 4 " in diameter) most of the time (though certainly not all the time). I do not claim to be one of them, but I am going to be. One of those people is my teacher. Presently, I am getting first round hits on standard clay birds at 1000 yards about 4 tries out of 10, and I do not care one bit whether anyone believes that or not. The more I practice, the higher that percentage will go.
With all due, considerable, respect, you may be a world authority on shooting techniques, information, etc., but you have no way of knowing what "no one is doing."
For the record, ATrag has always given high elevation numbers for me, while Exbal has always been significantly better. I realize that, for the shooting most are doing, the difference is moot, but I would hate to see someone not try to beat that skill level because someone, whose opinion they respect, told them it was not possible.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
4 out of 10 times ? Like in each range trip, you shot a cold bore at a clay pigeon and 4x out of 10 tries you hit or at one trip you hit it 4x out of 10 shots ?
Can you give me the specs on your rifle Tigerhawk, how you are shooting it ? As well, are you always going to the same range, if so, are you using the same dope for every try or are you changing your dope based on conditions, if so, what is your average change of conditions for the 10 tries... interested to see what you doing.
4 out of 10 times ? Like in each range trip, you shot a cold bore at a clay pigeon and 4x out of 10 tries you hit or at one trip you hit it 4x out of 10 shots ?
Can you give me the specs on your rifle Tigerhawk, how you are shooting it ? As well, are you always going to the same range, if so, are you using the same dope for every try or are you changing your dope based on conditions, if so, what is your average change of conditions for the 10 tries... interested to see what you doing.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I'll donate $1000 to the Wounded Warrior Foundation for anyone who can hit a clay pigeon at Rifles Only on the first shot at 1000 yards. If the shooter misses, they donate $1000 to the WWF.
I'll donate $1000 to the Wounded Warrior Foundation for anyone who can hit a clay pigeon at Rifles Only on the first shot at 1000 yards. If the shooter misses, they donate $1000 to the WWF.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Frank, on each range trip that I try this, I fire my first shot of the day at a standard clay bird at 1000 yards. About 4 times out of 10 that I try this, I hit it.
The rifle is a Tac Ops Lima, in .308, with a very heavy barrel. The scope is a Leupold Mark 4 M1-16x, on a NightForce base with Leupold Mark 4 rings.
The ammunition, believe it or not, is Federal 168 SMK. This is the round for which the chamber was specifically cut.
I shoot prone, on the ground, with a bipod.
I know that you do not like groups, so I will not bore you by telling you the groups this rig shoots, but I will say that it is one of the most accurate rifles I have heard of, and I know about some of the most accurate rifles on earth.
I change my dope based on conditions each time. I would have to go through all of my records of these shoots to accurately figure out the average change in conditions over all of the times I have tried this, but if I make a SWAG, I would say that the total temperature range for all of the tries has been over 20 degrees F.
Frank, on each range trip that I try this, I fire my first shot of the day at a standard clay bird at 1000 yards. About 4 times out of 10 that I try this, I hit it.
The rifle is a Tac Ops Lima, in .308, with a very heavy barrel. The scope is a Leupold Mark 4 M1-16x, on a NightForce base with Leupold Mark 4 rings.
The ammunition, believe it or not, is Federal 168 SMK. This is the round for which the chamber was specifically cut.
I shoot prone, on the ground, with a bipod.
I know that you do not like groups, so I will not bore you by telling you the groups this rig shoots, but I will say that it is one of the most accurate rifles I have heard of, and I know about some of the most accurate rifles on earth.
I change my dope based on conditions each time. I would have to go through all of my records of these shoots to accurately figure out the average change in conditions over all of the times I have tried this, but if I make a SWAG, I would say that the total temperature range for all of the tries has been over 20 degrees F.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Shooting at Rifles Only,
where the wind is known to blow just a little bit
,
at a Ø4.33" clay pigeon,
at a distance of 1000 yards,
taken as a cold bore shot,
with factory (match) ammo,
shooting a 168 grain SMK,
a bullet known to be <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT accurate</span> past 600 yards?
I wish I had the money to get in on this bet! Heck, I wish I could afford to drive down for the show!
Shooting at Rifles Only,
where the wind is known to blow just a little bit
at a Ø4.33" clay pigeon,
at a distance of 1000 yards,
taken as a cold bore shot,
with factory (match) ammo,
shooting a 168 grain SMK,
a bullet known to be <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT accurate</span> past 600 yards?
I wish I had the money to get in on this bet! Heck, I wish I could afford to drive down for the show!
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, on each range trip that I try this, I fire my first shot of the day at a standard clay bird at 1000 yards. About 4 times out of 10 that I try this, I hit it.
</div></div>
With the bullet?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, on each range trip that I try this, I fire my first shot of the day at a standard clay bird at 1000 yards. About 4 times out of 10 that I try this, I hit it.
</div></div>
With the bullet?
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
No, KIMO. After firing the first shot of the day, I take the rifle down range and use it to beat the clay bird into many pieces.
But, thank you for making me laugh.
No, KIMO. After firing the first shot of the day, I take the rifle down range and use it to beat the clay bird into many pieces.
But, thank you for making me laugh.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
ranger, the accounts you have heard about the 168 SMK being "NOT accurate past 600 yards" are usually from people whose rifles have a 1:12 twist. A 1:10, or even a 1:11 twist often gives substantially better results. This rifle does not have a 1:12 twist. In any case, I know what this rifle will do. Tac Ops also knows what this rifle will do.
I also never said I could take one shot on a given day and hit a clay bird at that distance reliably. Not yet.
ranger, the accounts you have heard about the 168 SMK being "NOT accurate past 600 yards" are usually from people whose rifles have a 1:12 twist. A 1:10, or even a 1:11 twist often gives substantially better results. This rifle does not have a 1:12 twist. In any case, I know what this rifle will do. Tac Ops also knows what this rifle will do.
I also never said I could take one shot on a given day and hit a clay bird at that distance reliably. Not yet.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Yes, the Federal Gold Medal Match .308 Winchester 168 gr SMK is indeed known for becoming unstable past 600 yards. Very well documented by the Bench Rest shooting community.
Tac Ops is a great rifle, but it doesn't change the law of physics.
Put another way, I don't believe you and I think you're talking a bunch of bull.
Yes, the Federal Gold Medal Match .308 Winchester 168 gr SMK is indeed known for becoming unstable past 600 yards. Very well documented by the Bench Rest shooting community.
Tac Ops is a great rifle, but it doesn't change the law of physics.
Put another way, I don't believe you and I think you're talking a bunch of bull.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
ranger, I do not care what you or anyone else thinks. I have no need to prove anything, and I have discussed this bullet and why some people get different results, with a number of people, including some very good shots who have seen me shoot this rifle. I have discussed the fact that my bullets are not keyholing at that distance with others in the Tactical Rifle community who know about these things, including someone who builds some of the most accurate rifles in the world. His tactical rifles shoot better than benchrest guns.
You cannot say that the bullet is "known for becoming unstable past 600 yards" without also discussing the specifications of the rifles from which it "becomes unstable." Not all rifles will impart the same degree of stabilization, and stabilization depends in part on the rifle.
As far as the laws of physics, our civilization does not understand even a fraction of how physics works yet. Obviously, there are things we do not know. The bumble bee is known to be aerodynamically incapable of flight. This is "well documented" by the scientific community. Last I checked, they still fly. I tend to believe what my bullets are doing, rather than what anyone says they should be doing.
Put another way, I think you are rude, prejudiced, arrogant, and not very bright.
ranger, I do not care what you or anyone else thinks. I have no need to prove anything, and I have discussed this bullet and why some people get different results, with a number of people, including some very good shots who have seen me shoot this rifle. I have discussed the fact that my bullets are not keyholing at that distance with others in the Tactical Rifle community who know about these things, including someone who builds some of the most accurate rifles in the world. His tactical rifles shoot better than benchrest guns.
You cannot say that the bullet is "known for becoming unstable past 600 yards" without also discussing the specifications of the rifles from which it "becomes unstable." Not all rifles will impart the same degree of stabilization, and stabilization depends in part on the rifle.
As far as the laws of physics, our civilization does not understand even a fraction of how physics works yet. Obviously, there are things we do not know. The bumble bee is known to be aerodynamically incapable of flight. This is "well documented" by the scientific community. Last I checked, they still fly. I tend to believe what my bullets are doing, rather than what anyone says they should be doing.
Put another way, I think you are rude, prejudiced, arrogant, and not very bright.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I'm not going to judge if someone on here is claiming to shoot 4 out of 10. After all, i don't know the altitude/conditions he's shooting at nor how much practice he's putting in nor do we know his barrel length/twist or quality/make of his bipod/front rest.
Having said that I would love it if he posted a clip on here not because I doubt him or to show others up but because I would find it good viewing.
I'm by far the greatest shot in the world, not even in the village but I can produce consistently good results at my local range that I shoot day in, day out with minimal change in conditions. Put me at a non-uniform distance with inconsistent winds, elevation to consider, perhaps mirage, altitude and other conditional changes etc and I'll be lucky to hit a barn door. No disrespect at all intended to Tiger but far too many of us shoot well within our comfort zone at a convenient local range. Fine for load development but not if you want to improve.
I'm not going to judge if someone on here is claiming to shoot 4 out of 10. After all, i don't know the altitude/conditions he's shooting at nor how much practice he's putting in nor do we know his barrel length/twist or quality/make of his bipod/front rest.
Having said that I would love it if he posted a clip on here not because I doubt him or to show others up but because I would find it good viewing.
I'm by far the greatest shot in the world, not even in the village but I can produce consistently good results at my local range that I shoot day in, day out with minimal change in conditions. Put me at a non-uniform distance with inconsistent winds, elevation to consider, perhaps mirage, altitude and other conditional changes etc and I'll be lucky to hit a barn door. No disrespect at all intended to Tiger but far too many of us shoot well within our comfort zone at a convenient local range. Fine for load development but not if you want to improve.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
TJ, thank you for injecting some additional reality into this "discussion." I never stated that I was running all over the world and doing this kind of shooting in a bunch of different conditions. Most of it has been done at one of only two places, though neither is a designated shooting range. The conditions at these places do change, substantially, with the seasons, and I plan to keep trying to do this throughout the year, so I will have the chance to do it under as many different conditions as possible. The person who is teaching me to do this is a far better shot than I am, and has routinely made shots that other people considered impossible, so I know that I can, with more practice, better my average.
I do get a ton of practice. I have learned that, when you shoot over 12 thousand rounds a year, year after year, you see that some things can be done that are not possible for people of lower skill levels, even with equipment with which it might initially seem impossible to do them.
I would have to measure the barrel, but I believe it is 20", and the twist is either 1:10 or 1:11. The maker does not remember. The barrel is approximately 1.25" in diameter.
There seem to be some people on this site who live to cry "bullshit" whenever someone says they can do something that the "bullshit" cryers cannot do, or think cannot be done. I long ago learned that there was no point in trying to prove anything to such people, since there is no benefit to doing so, and they are not interested in the truth anyway.
As far as making a video, if I get around to it, I will make one. It may be a while, since I am principally concerned with shooting, rather than filming. I agree it would make good viewing, at least for some people.
TJ, thank you for injecting some additional reality into this "discussion." I never stated that I was running all over the world and doing this kind of shooting in a bunch of different conditions. Most of it has been done at one of only two places, though neither is a designated shooting range. The conditions at these places do change, substantially, with the seasons, and I plan to keep trying to do this throughout the year, so I will have the chance to do it under as many different conditions as possible. The person who is teaching me to do this is a far better shot than I am, and has routinely made shots that other people considered impossible, so I know that I can, with more practice, better my average.
I do get a ton of practice. I have learned that, when you shoot over 12 thousand rounds a year, year after year, you see that some things can be done that are not possible for people of lower skill levels, even with equipment with which it might initially seem impossible to do them.
I would have to measure the barrel, but I believe it is 20", and the twist is either 1:10 or 1:11. The maker does not remember. The barrel is approximately 1.25" in diameter.
There seem to be some people on this site who live to cry "bullshit" whenever someone says they can do something that the "bullshit" cryers cannot do, or think cannot be done. I long ago learned that there was no point in trying to prove anything to such people, since there is no benefit to doing so, and they are not interested in the truth anyway.
As far as making a video, if I get around to it, I will make one. It may be a while, since I am principally concerned with shooting, rather than filming. I agree it would make good viewing, at least for some people.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Tiger hawk,
What is your muzzle velocity and what dope are you using to 1000 yards with the 168gr smk ?
Question do you want a free slot to the Fall Shooters Bash to quell the nay Sayers? Then you can take Lindy's bet
Tiger hawk,
What is your muzzle velocity and what dope are you using to 1000 yards with the 168gr smk ?
Question do you want a free slot to the Fall Shooters Bash to quell the nay Sayers? Then you can take Lindy's bet
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Jeez,
so THAT'S how to get into the fall Shooter's Bash ...
Jeez,
so THAT'S how to get into the fall Shooter's Bash ...
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so THAT'S how to get into the fall Shooter's Bash ...</div></div>
Might work once. Probably not repeatable...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so THAT'S how to get into the fall Shooter's Bash ...</div></div>
Might work once. Probably not repeatable...
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Frank,
The muzzle velocity of that load in that rifle averages 2732 fps. The chamber is a very precisely cut, tight, match chamber, which, according to the maker, causes the velocity to be a little higher than usual.
It depends on the temperature, humidity, etc. From a 100 yard zero, I have come up between 35.25 and 36.75 MOA, so far. Prior to doing any 1000 yard shooting, I shot this rifle at 200, 300, 465, 555, and 965 yards, and recorded the required elevations, so that I would have something to check the data I got from various ballistic programs against.
I really appreciate your offer, Frank, but there is no point in my taking Lindy’s bet at this time. I told you I am hitting the clay bird at 1000 yards with my first shot of the day, an average of 4 times out of every 10 times that I try. Why anyone would think, from that, that I am claiming to be able to be certain of hitting 1 clay bird at 1000 yards on the first shot on my next (or any given) try is beyond me.
How about this: When (or if) I get to the skill level that I can do this 9 out of 10 times (or, for more certainty, let’s say 45 out of 50 times), I will let you know and, if the offer is still open at that time, I will gladly take it. Not because I will be certain of hitting 1 bird in 1 try (that would require 10 out of 10), but because I would have enough of a chance of hitting it to make it a worthwhile bet. If I lose, donating $1000.00 to the Wounded Warrior Fund does not seem like a bad thing at all.
Frank,
The muzzle velocity of that load in that rifle averages 2732 fps. The chamber is a very precisely cut, tight, match chamber, which, according to the maker, causes the velocity to be a little higher than usual.
It depends on the temperature, humidity, etc. From a 100 yard zero, I have come up between 35.25 and 36.75 MOA, so far. Prior to doing any 1000 yard shooting, I shot this rifle at 200, 300, 465, 555, and 965 yards, and recorded the required elevations, so that I would have something to check the data I got from various ballistic programs against.
I really appreciate your offer, Frank, but there is no point in my taking Lindy’s bet at this time. I told you I am hitting the clay bird at 1000 yards with my first shot of the day, an average of 4 times out of every 10 times that I try. Why anyone would think, from that, that I am claiming to be able to be certain of hitting 1 clay bird at 1000 yards on the first shot on my next (or any given) try is beyond me.
How about this: When (or if) I get to the skill level that I can do this 9 out of 10 times (or, for more certainty, let’s say 45 out of 50 times), I will let you know and, if the offer is still open at that time, I will gladly take it. Not because I will be certain of hitting 1 bird in 1 try (that would require 10 out of 10), but because I would have enough of a chance of hitting it to make it a worthwhile bet. If I lose, donating $1000.00 to the Wounded Warrior Fund does not seem like a bad thing at all.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
What is your average group size at 1000 yards ?
What Elevation are you at ? Because at sea level under standard atmospheric conditions that load is going sub sonic at 1008 yards, at 1000 yards the velocity is 1123fps which suggests a less than stellar performance especially if the BP or Temp is less than standard conditions. So being 1/10th of a mil accurate with a bullet that is barely supersonic seems a bit out of the ordinary given the flight record for the 168gr especially around the transonic region. It actually might be the reason you only hit 4 out of 10 tries.
What is your average Wind Call at your Range...
I have a 16" GAP AR10 that I can hit a sub MOA target at 1000 yards 5 out of 10 times, but I really don't consider that to be 1/10th or better accurate. It uses 39MOA to 1000 yards. I sort of consider that getting really lucky.
And saying you shoot over 12k rounds a year, and that you are an above average shooter should put you into the Top 10 of the match easily even if you only hit 4 our of 10 cold bore shots, that still doesn't mean you can't hit on your second shot 9 out of 10 times. You don't have to take Lindy's bet, but would like to see your results with a crowd. On me...
What is your average group size at 1000 yards ?
What Elevation are you at ? Because at sea level under standard atmospheric conditions that load is going sub sonic at 1008 yards, at 1000 yards the velocity is 1123fps which suggests a less than stellar performance especially if the BP or Temp is less than standard conditions. So being 1/10th of a mil accurate with a bullet that is barely supersonic seems a bit out of the ordinary given the flight record for the 168gr especially around the transonic region. It actually might be the reason you only hit 4 out of 10 tries.
What is your average Wind Call at your Range...
I have a 16" GAP AR10 that I can hit a sub MOA target at 1000 yards 5 out of 10 times, but I really don't consider that to be 1/10th or better accurate. It uses 39MOA to 1000 yards. I sort of consider that getting really lucky.
And saying you shoot over 12k rounds a year, and that you are an above average shooter should put you into the Top 10 of the match easily even if you only hit 4 our of 10 cold bore shots, that still doesn't mean you can't hit on your second shot 9 out of 10 times. You don't have to take Lindy's bet, but would like to see your results with a crowd. On me...
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Frank, thank you very much! It never occurred to me that the 168 grain bullet might be the cause of my only being able to hit 4 out of 10 tries. I assumed that, since I am hitting 4 out of 10 tries, the gun/optic/mount/bipod/load combination was fine, and it was only my lack of skill that was at fault. Before I try this again, I am going to get some Federal 175 grain Match loads (Mike has said that these will work just fine in his rifles that are set up for the 168 SMKs), and see what I can do with those. I will let you know what happens, and then we can discuss your generous offer of my doing this in front of a crowd, on you. How is that?
Do you mind if I do not state my average 1000 yard group size here? If I do, it will just cause a bunch of the "bullshit" cryers to yell again.
I have done this at about 1800 feet, and at about 4200 feet. Obviously, I have better retained velocity at 4200 feet, but it is usually windier there, at least where I go.
Average wind call where I shoot at 1800 is 0.75 MOA right windage. Average wind call where I shoot at 4200 is 2 MOA right windage.
Frank, thank you very much! It never occurred to me that the 168 grain bullet might be the cause of my only being able to hit 4 out of 10 tries. I assumed that, since I am hitting 4 out of 10 tries, the gun/optic/mount/bipod/load combination was fine, and it was only my lack of skill that was at fault. Before I try this again, I am going to get some Federal 175 grain Match loads (Mike has said that these will work just fine in his rifles that are set up for the 168 SMKs), and see what I can do with those. I will let you know what happens, and then we can discuss your generous offer of my doing this in front of a crowd, on you. How is that?
Do you mind if I do not state my average 1000 yard group size here? If I do, it will just cause a bunch of the "bullshit" cryers to yell again.
I have done this at about 1800 feet, and at about 4200 feet. Obviously, I have better retained velocity at 4200 feet, but it is usually windier there, at least where I go.
Average wind call where I shoot at 1800 is 0.75 MOA right windage. Average wind call where I shoot at 4200 is 2 MOA right windage.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Average wind call where I shoot at 1800 is 0.75 MOA right windage. Average wind call where I shoot at 4200 is 2 MOA right windage. </div></div>
I guess that goes to show you, at distance, its all about the wind.
As to where your shooting Tiger, that's practically no wind at all brother. Almost like shooting on the moon. Count yourself lucky. I live under opposite conditions....
Have a great evening!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Average wind call where I shoot at 1800 is 0.75 MOA right windage. Average wind call where I shoot at 4200 is 2 MOA right windage. </div></div>
I guess that goes to show you, at distance, its all about the wind.
As to where your shooting Tiger, that's practically no wind at all brother. Almost like shooting on the moon. Count yourself lucky. I live under opposite conditions....
Have a great evening!
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
KIMO, just out of curiosity, what is your average wind call, and at what distance, where you shoot?
You too!
KIMO, just out of curiosity, what is your average wind call, and at what distance, where you shoot?
You too!
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
I'm just a hillbilly and can barely read....much less record and keep track of such things! That being said, since 1 mph of wind at 1k will blow a typical .308 bullet about 10 inches (lets say 1 moa for sake of argument), that means an average wind call of .75 or 2 moa is very little wind at all...
I live in Gold Beach and its blowing, always, alot. 10 to 20 mph is common and the days it drops to below 10 mph are alot of fun and hit rates go up dramatically. Most of my efforts nowadays are on striving for second round hits and with wind I just set it and forget it on the scope, spot first round impact and hold the rest of the time. Did I forget to mention our wind is horizontal and verticle? It can be very difficult and occasionally almost impossible.
I'm just a hillbilly and can barely read....much less record and keep track of such things! That being said, since 1 mph of wind at 1k will blow a typical .308 bullet about 10 inches (lets say 1 moa for sake of argument), that means an average wind call of .75 or 2 moa is very little wind at all...
I live in Gold Beach and its blowing, always, alot. 10 to 20 mph is common and the days it drops to below 10 mph are alot of fun and hit rates go up dramatically. Most of my efforts nowadays are on striving for second round hits and with wind I just set it and forget it on the scope, spot first round impact and hold the rest of the time. Did I forget to mention our wind is horizontal and verticle? It can be very difficult and occasionally almost impossible.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
That sounds like a place that would be very good for building skill, if not for having a generally high hit percentage.
That sounds like a place that would be very good for building skill, if not for having a generally high hit percentage.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Our Average wind call is between 2.5 and 3.5 Mils with a typical 308, meaning a 175gr, the 168gr bullets get blown around quite a bit. So, yes, .72 to 2MOA is very light winds or at least not very high full values for sure. We did have 12 to 14MPH winds blowing the other day from the 5 to 7 O Clock position, one shoot might have held a 1/2 Mil Right wind while the next shooter held 1 Mil Left wind, so the changes were tough.
It's certainly changes the dynamic when you engage sub moa targets under such conditions.
Our Average wind call is between 2.5 and 3.5 Mils with a typical 308, meaning a 175gr, the 168gr bullets get blown around quite a bit. So, yes, .72 to 2MOA is very light winds or at least not very high full values for sure. We did have 12 to 14MPH winds blowing the other day from the 5 to 7 O Clock position, one shoot might have held a 1/2 Mil Right wind while the next shooter held 1 Mil Left wind, so the changes were tough.
It's certainly changes the dynamic when you engage sub moa targets under such conditions.
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Damn,
I would have to improve to hit my 1.8 MOA (16" square) target at 1000, cold bore, 4 in 10 times.
I have gone 10 for 10 after getting on target, but there lies the challenge, for me.
And I use bullets with a higher ballistic coefficient!
More practice I guess...
-Bob
Damn,
I would have to improve to hit my 1.8 MOA (16" square) target at 1000, cold bore, 4 in 10 times.
I have gone 10 for 10 after getting on target, but there lies the challenge, for me.
And I use bullets with a higher ballistic coefficient!
More practice I guess...
-Bob
Re: Kestrel 4500 with Ballistics programs
Frank, then one possible additional factor here is that the winds I have been shooting in are not full value, since where I shoot at 1800 feet altitude, the wind usually comes from 4:00-4:30, and where I shoot at 4200 feet, the wind usually comes from 4:30.
Frank, then one possible additional factor here is that the winds I have been shooting in are not full value, since where I shoot at 1800 feet altitude, the wind usually comes from 4:00-4:30, and where I shoot at 4200 feet, the wind usually comes from 4:30.
