Kinda feel humbled by asking

[blakheaven]

OK like it says I feel kinda humbled to ask but I have gone through my books mental archives of past experiences and read here and really no definitive answer. I have started using Hornady Fl sizer and seating dies because I like the design. My issue is this: I had new brass that chambered easily and I fire formed the brass by firing them (no duh). When I did my normal method of only bumping the shoulder back a few thousands, the brass did not chamber (well with alot of force on the handle it would but whose that dumb) so I kept bumping and bump until I literally had the FL die FL sizing (meaning I must have one heck of a tight chamber since it is a new weapon which thats a good thing I guess, longer brass life) but even FL re sized the brass is cambering better but still awfully tight for my liking. Furthermore when I resize I am getting alot of resistance. I thought Hornady was a pretty solid brand so is it the brass or are these dies acting funky? I use Lyman single stage heavy iron or w/e they are made out of presses and my bench is rock solid so I dunno why the resistance and tight chambering.

 

[264win]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

A little more info would help, what caliber,rifle,load,and chamber are you using ? also a picture of before and after brass would help
My 1st thought would be you have either a semi auto , or just a loose /sloppy chamber and need to use small base dies to resize the case its full length.

 

[fish30114]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

Well a loose chamber would not cause a need to use small base dies first off-- those would be if, as the OP suspects might be the case, those would be needed if you have a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">TIGHT</span></span> chamber.

If you are having trouble with the die not sizing the brass small enough, it could be you need a small base die, but I doubt it....I would agree it would help us figure things with you if you stated caliber/type of brass, type of rifle, what experience you have with other rifles etc.

It could be as simple as tolerance stack, meaning that you have a near minimum size chamber in your rifle, and a near max size die. This alone could cause the issue. How are you measuring your brass to determine how far you are moving the shoulder back? I have had dies that I had to grind the bottom off of in order to hit the shoulder and move it back--again, IMO due to tolerance stack.

Also, if you aren't actaully moving the shoulder back, your die will actually push the shoulder <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">forward</span></span> during sizing, and it can be HARDER than fireformed to chamber! Does just fired brass chamber in the rifle fine??

Keep us posted, maybe we can help you figure it out

 

[blakheaven]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

Cal .308 Win, rifle M40A3 clone with Schneider barrel, load 45gr IMR 4064 173gr military issue special ball, chamber was done with a 7.62 NATO spec reamer. I think the chamber might be too tight not sloppy cause FL sizing isn't doing the trick. I anneal also to relieve stress in the neck. As far as determining the shoulder bump I have always done it the same way: the old lighter and look for ring method. I see if it chambers if it is tight I lower the die some more ect until I feel I have bumped the shoulder just enough to close the handle which should be about 3-5 thousandths but I have yet to pony up and actually buy the actual measuring tool because I have been loading consistent ammo for about 10 years now and its always worked for sub MOA ammo so far. You have me intrigued with the moving the shoulder forward in a die, I never heard of this. The brass chamber tight right after firing but still chamber-able just on the tight side for me. After resizing it is still tight so you could say its like its doing nothing except that I am applying a larger than normal force on the piston so I can't be doing nothing. Something else of interest. The necks have dark powder stains on them which implies I am not going with a hot enough load so go figure...

 

[cooper_257]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

you need to measure your fired brass, then measure it again after you re size to actually see if the shoulder is being bumped 2 thousandths is good in a bolt gun 4to 6 in a semiautomatic. hornaday make a good gauge for this.

 

[karb]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

Maybe you could use a thinner shell holder to manage
The shoulder a little more. Like these.........

http://www.redding-reloading.com/in...ew=article&id=35:competition-shellholder-sets

 

[fish30114]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

Low pressure isn't the only reason for sooty necks as a quick point. A die that is sizing your neck down a lot below the OD of the chamber in the neck can contribute to that.

I have had a couple of dies in a few different calibers, 308, 270 and 300 WSM, where the die never hit the shoulder, and when sizing the body was getting hit, and the shoulder moved forward--and the cases would not chamber at all in two of the cases, on the 270 it was just really hard to close the bolt.

It took me a while, and some help from the Accurate Reloading forum to figure it out, and basically, I just zizzed about 8-10 thou of of the bottom of the die, so I could get the shoulder moved back with the press just shy of camming over on the base of the die--which is how I like it.

It sounds like to me you have a tight chamber, but it is at least a little longer than the die you have, just a few thou makes a big difference. I think the way you are judging your sizing 'bump' is fine, but it is really hard to detect just a few thou that way, so I would either try screwing the die in some more if you can and see what happens, or figure a way to more precisely measure your before and after shoulder position.

Your rifle sounds like a nice build, not to sure about the ball ammo thing, but whatever--maybe I read that wrong--but it might be worth investing in a custom die, or a higher end die than your Hornady--I like them too, but something like a Forster bench rest sizing die, I feel is a better die, and the one I REALLY like is the Forster Bushing Bump die, just measure several of your fired cases, and figure which bushing you want, and you can order the die with the one on either side of it (they typically come with 3 bushings)This die hits the body little to none, and scoots the shoulder back, and sizes the neck to the selected bushing size only.

Good luck!

 

[blakheaven]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

The M118 special ball to be exact, I work in munitions and a friend gets me them. Why do you prefer the forester bushing die set? I have always used Lee and some RCBS. As far as shaving a few thousands off the die or shell holder is there a method to this? A grinder seems kinda "inconsistent". Maybe I should just purchase a custom die set since I have around 6 grand in this rifle (haven't reloaded for 308 in a long time so I got rid of my Lee dies couple years ago)
My only issue about copping out to the new die set is I have always been a firm believer in that reloading is primarily the user not the fancy dies. Not to take away from the bells and whistles that I am sure make it easier

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

Spend the $35 and get answers instead of questions.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Kinda feel hubled by asking

Check the case length (base to end of neck). Overlong cases can bind at the mouth. Try trimming them to a shorter case length and see if that helps. Maybe your chamber isn't cut to the conventional length.

Greg

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Kinda feel humbled by asking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My issue is this: I had new brass that chambered easily and I fire formed the brass by firing them (no duh). When I did my normal method of only bumping the shoulder back a few thousands, the brass did not chamber (well with alot of force on the handle it would but whose that dumb) so I kept bumping and bump until I literally had the FL die FL sizing (meaning I must have one heck of a tight chamber since it is a new weapon which thats a good thing I guess, longer brass life) but even FL re sized the brass is cambering better but still awfully tight for my liking.</div></div>

It might surprise you to know that the FL sizing die will push on the case near the base to make it smaller diametrically. This push will cause the case to grow in length, moving the sholder forward.

What should not surprise you is that using a FL sizing die to push on th sholder DOES result in FL sizing. (Duh)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Furthermore when I resize I am getting alot of resistance. I thought Hornady was a pretty solid brand so is it the brass or are these dies acting funky? I use Lyman single stage heavy iron or w/e they are made out of presses and my bench is rock solid so I dunno why the resistance and tight chambering. </div></div>

Time for measurement tools. You need a way to measure the sholder position (to 0.001 and a way to measure the width of the case just above the web to 0.0002 (that's 2 ten-thou). This will identify whether the problem is at the sholder itself, or down at the base.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Kinda feel humbled by asking

The following is my stock description of how to setup and use a RCBS Precision Mic to measure headspace. If you get a Redding instant indicator instead (I much prefer) then use the GO gauge to setup the indicator so that it reads 0.x30" (what revolution of 10ths you're on doesn't really matter since we're checking differences of thousandths) and proceed as below.


Get a GO gauge for your chosen chamber. Make sure the bolt WILL close on it (otherwise you've got bigger problems.) Assuming yes, put it in the Mic and measure it. Right that number down (on a Redding indicator this should be 0.x30").

Then take a piece of scotch tape stick it on the bottom of the headspace gauge and use a razor blade to trim it so you have a nice little circle of tape on the bottom. Put this in your gun and try to close the bolt. If it closes easily, take it out and measure again with the headspace gauge. It should be 0.001 to 0.002" longer. Right that down and add a 2nd layer of tape to the gauge and repeat.

If (or when) it just BARELY closes take it out and measure again, THIS is your new zero. You want to size your brass so that they're 0.002-0.004 under this number(depending on your preferences for reliability vs absolute accuracy and your equipment's tolerances when sizing).

Note that I suggest 0.002-0.004 under, this is under the absolute limits of your chamber and not under the size of your fired brass. Typically your fired brass should spring back about 0.001" so this should work out to 0.001-0.003 actual change to your fired brass. Also if you poorly lubricate your brass (I personally have had bad luck getting reliable results with Hornady One-Shot) the shoulder or FL sizer can actually end up making the brass longer for some reason. Properly lubricated brass (Imperial sizing wax or RCBS liquid on a pad is very repeatable for me) should provide a nice smooth stroke and repeatable results +/- 0.001" . If the press stutters or sticks then you weren't lubed properly and actual results will vary +/- several thousandths.

Make sure you check overall case length and trim as needed after sizing. I personally trim every time, even if it's not strictly needed, so that I know I have a consistent bearing surface with the bullet.

Also note that I've measured new brass and factory loaded rounds and found them to be 0.009" or more undersized from a GO Gauge.

 

[blakheaven]

Re: Kinda feel humbled by asking

I appreciate all the sound advice, and ya getting all the nice measuring tools has been on the priority list for a while. I just don't enjoy ordering stuff from online sites too much. I will update this when I have tried everything listed above. Thanks again

 

[TAC06]

Re: Kinda feel humbled by asking

My brother had sort of the same problem with a Krieger AR15 barrel. After several sessions him and a gunsmith finally ended up with the Go/NoGo guages and they couldn't get the bolt closed. They put a reamer in the chamber and they started cutting metal out of the neck area in the chamber, alot of metal. Then they polished then fired the AR and the rifle started funtioning like it was supposed too. Appartently Krieger either didn't do a good job reaming or thier factory reamer was bad and that was why the neck part of the chamber didn't get cut in. Just a suggestion to look into! Possible the Mil spec reamer you used a few to many times.