Advanced Marksmanship "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

[Hellbender]

I had a match at my farm a few months ago, invited about a half dozen shooters.
Had this little scenario for a stage that made some good head scratching for everyone.
The pre-stage briefing was given on their lunch break, so they couldn't see targets......

You have 4 targets to engage at an unknown distance, rangefinders are allowed. 4 shots in 3 minutes. Targets are closer than 200 yards.

The only visible target is a 1 inch diameter Shoot-n-See on a piece of cardboard.

Target #1 - 1" Orange Shoot-n-See

Target #2 - Located 4 1/2 inches Left and 3 3/8" Down from Target #1

Target #3 - Located 13.02 centimeters Right and 12.07 cm Up from Target #1

Target #4 - Located 7.0 inches Left and 114.3 millimeters Up from Target #3

They got to discuss and scratch their heads over lunch break and then we went to shoot.
Since it was UNKNOWN distance, it made it pretty fun....

I'd like to get some input from you guys on how you would handle the scenario.

We had two different approaches to the problem and both worked....

NOTE: I had the pics turned wrong in the orig. post, you might have to reload the page if you had looked at this earlier.

Here's what they could see.....

Here's the invisible targets on the back.....

 

[blklabs]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

I would have a hard enough time doing the different conversions to inches. Thankfully there is an app for that! Looks like a good challenge though!

 

[McLarenross]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Thats really cool!

 

[Rifle Barrel Blanks]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Very nice, sounds like it would be fun

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

That sound like ALOT of fun!

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Diabolical! To make competitors do math!
Was there time given to do the math, once the range was known?
I will definitely have to do something like that at my next match in the spring. I'll never hear the end of it...
Anyway. The 1st thing I'd do is convert the metrics to inches. Then I'd draw the positions of where the TGT's should be on a range card for 100yd distance. Then I'd do the moa math once the actual range was known.
Dang. I had to think for a minute...

 

[Peloton]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Brain cramp! Sounds fun though.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Was there time given to do the math, once the range was known?
</div></div>

4 shots in 3 minutes

They all had the entire lunch break (1 hour or so) to do most of the math, only had to adjust for distance and shoot 4 shots on the line.

But also remember, they only had the one aiming point, so you had better know your click values well!

Zero stops can get in the way, too! So knowing your reticle holds could be important.

You have to REALLY think this one through from start to finish to get it.

 

[tigerhawk]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

This is great! I am going to do this too!

 

[jbailey]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Great stage Hellbender - love it!

I past on this link to some match organizers I know. Hope to see this one someday!

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

We did a similar one once where we had a 1" box and you had to place shots at precise locations around it using the knobs.

First thing I would do is lase it.
Then get everything down to a common unit of measure, inches.
Figure out what my .1 MIL would subtend at the lased distance (e.g. for 175Y, .36*1.75)
Then divide the measurements by that (thereby converting to MIL) and walk them in.

VERY nice exercise. I can imagine the chin music you got on that one.

Can't wait to see what the other approach is.

--Fargo007

 

[jbailey]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

For the match organizers to make this stage a bit easier to set up and run, what if you did this by setting it up on a double sided piece of photocopied paper? On the side visible, you would have a black 1" dot in the center And on other side (which will not be visible to shooters), you have 1" squares (or circles, whatever). Photocopy a ton of these sheets and set them up on a poster (might have to be KD in this case). Each shooter gets his/her own sheet and at the end of the stage, the papers are retrieved and the hits scored. Given that its only a 11x8.5" piece of paper, you will not have as many targets possible, but, in addition to the visible dot, you might have room for 3 to 4 hidden targets.

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Sure....

Intersperse some no-shoots in there too........

Touch one, and the whole target's a zero.

--Fargo007

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

JamesBailey..

I cut up all the cardboard into approx. 2'x2' squares, make sure you mark the bottoms so they will all be set up the same way.

Then I stacked all the cardboard up with the bottoms together and took a small sharp wire and poked holes all the way through all the pieces of cardboard to mark each target location.
That saved trying to measure each one out separately, and all targets were then centered on the holes.

Use the bottom of the cardboard to make sure they are set up level to the world, I put 2 nails in a pallet (nails leveled w/ a level) to set the targets on.

We just changed out targets between shooters, but you could line up a bunch and just put shooter #'s on them if you had lots of shooters. Just make sure the bottoms are all leveled.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

It was funny, when I first described the stage, everyone just sat there a minute and didn't say anything....

It reminded me of that blank Spongebob Squarepants....blink....blink....!!

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Fargo007..

If you have a mil scope why would you change everything into inches?

NOT saying it's wrong (cuz it's not and it works), but complicates matters more.

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fargo007..

If you have a mil scope why would you change everything into inches?

NOT saying it's wrong (cuz it's not and it works), but complicates matters more. </div></div>

Another way I suppose would be to lase the distance in meters (or convert the yards to meters), and use centimeters as my lowest common denominator. Since 1cm at 100M is equal to 1/10 MIL.

My laser does yards, so starting with that I guess I just thought to work off that.

--Fargo007

 

[spot69221]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

You could 'think' about it all lunch but you didn't know the yardage to the target yet.

 

[brunop]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

If no laser, I'd mil the 1" dot to find distance and go from there. My USO has the mil-gap reticle with half-mil hashes and .1MOA & .7MOA line-thickness.

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

I proved it out using the distance in meters and centimeters as the unit.

Assuming 175Y, which is 159.25M, each tenth moves the bullet 1.5925CM. That is the divisor for each distance in CM you intend to move the impact.

Yards/Inches: 14.3cm = 5.63" 5.63/.63" (.1 MIL at that distance) = 8.9 (.9 MIL).

Meters/CM:

175Y = 159.5M 14.3cm / 1.595 = 8.9 (.9 MIL)

---------------

Calculation steps for yards:

1 - Convert cm/mm to inches.
2 - extrapolate .36 to the distance
3 - divide by #2

Calculations steps for meters:

1 - Convert to meters (my dope is yards, so I lase in yards)
2 - extrapolate cm to that distance (although we only have to move the decimal point, it's still technically an operation)
3 - divide by #2

I think the calculations are pretty similar. Anyone have a different way of tackling this monster?

Congrats on creating a VERY fine exercise. I bet most people got so tied up in the math they forgot to factor in the dope change from their zero to the actual shooting distance.

--Fargo007

 

[gugubica]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

This was one of my favorite stages, that and the waterborne, and the rooftop and the tree. Damn this was a fun match.

It is real easy to overthink this. It is easier than it might appear. I am in Florida and my data book is in MO, I will let everyone think on it awhile then post my formula when I get home.

I love this kind of stuff, I often overthink thw physics of something simple, so this stage was perfect for my overactive brain.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Math in public is something I really shouldn't do. But taking the 175 yard example and to calculate moving the point of impact 7 inches (horizontally, for vertical you've got to consider the scope elevation correction also), maybe I'd start with standard mil ranging formula and work from there:

Height (in.) x 27.77 = yards to target
---------
Mils

Therefore, 1 in target at 175 yard reveals:

1 x 27.77 = 175
--------
Y

1 = 175
---- ----
Y 27.77



Therefore,

Y = 27.77 = .1586 mil per inch at 175 yards.
-------
175

7 inches of movement at 175 yards= .1586mil x 7" = 1.11 mil.


How'd I do? Zero'd the stage?.......typical......

 

[one shot ST]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

I'll do all the conversions in cm..

target 2 left 11.43 cm and 8,57 cm down

target 3 right 13.02 cm and 12.07 cm Up

target 4 left 17.78 cm and 11.43 cm up

with the laser I find the distance... for example 180 m

.1 mil is 1.8 cm.....


2 .6 MIL left .47 MIL down
3 .72 MIL right .7 MIL up
4 .98 MIL left .63 MIL up

with a calculator I've done all the matter in 1.45 minutes ... about 1 minute to shot...

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

I'm thinking this is an EXCELLENT idea. Thanks for that.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

gugubica shot the best on this stage, and used a different method from the rest of the guys.

I'm still not sure exactly how he did it, but it worked well.

I was ROing, so just got to hit the high points with everyone.

With the yardage unknown, I would have calculated everything for my 100 yard zero beforehand, and then used a multiplier when I learned the distance on the line.

Lets do it one step at a time....

First....how do you calculate the exact mils or moa at 100 yards...do EACH shot separately!! That's how you have to shoot it.

SO..for right now...everyone just do the math(and give the adjustment for EACH shot) for the individual shots at 100 yards...4 shots...4 adjustments

 

[sled_mack]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

I'm sure davide uses metric because it is native to him. But I would do this:

1. Convert all offsets to cm.
2. Range target in yards.
3. WRITE DOWN my base dope for the first target.
4. Convert yards to meters (or range again in meters). Now I know the exact cm/.1 MIL to adjust.
5. Use the ratio from step 4 and convert all cm to MIL.

The hard part that I see would be going back to the base dope between each shot. At least it would be for me.

So, how would I have done? Any flaws in my method?

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

There are many ways to do this, everyone just give the actual amount they would adjust thier scope (in mils or moa) for EACH of the 4 shots at 100 yards.

We will add the complication of the unknown distance later.

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Target #1 - 1" Orange Shoot-n-See

Target #2 - Located 4 1/2 inches Left and 3 3/8" Down from Target #1

Target #3 - Located 13.02 centimeters Right and 12.07 cm Up from Target #1

Target #4 - Located 7.0 inches Left and 114.3 millimeters Up from Target #3</div></div>

Because it's 100Y not 100M, depending on where I hit the dot I would hold accordingly for that difference on subsequent shots. So - from dope where I'm hitting the dot:

Shot 2 - 1.1 MILS left, .8 Down. Fire holding on the dot.

Return knobs to POA/POI of the dot.

Shot 3 - 1.3 MILS right, 1.2 MILS up. Fire holding on the dot.

Shot 4 - Continuing from that setting - 1.7 MILS left 1.1 MILS up. Fire.

And hopefully I remember to back the windage off in the correct direction..... LOL

--Fargo007

 

[sled_mack]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Hellbender,

First converting to cm:
T1 - 0,0
T2 - 11.43 L, 8.57 D
T3 - 13.02 R, 12.07 U
T4 - 17.78 L, 11.43 U

100 yards is about 91.5 M.
1 MIL = 9.15cm

So converting to MIL, all referencing T1:
T1 - 0,0
T2 - 1.25 L, 0.95 D
T3 - 1.42 R, 1.32 U
T4 - 1.94 L, 1.25 U

That's more math than I've done on my lunch break in a long time!

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Now how would you handle closer than 100 yards?

Farther?

 

[sled_mack]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

That's why I converted the raw distances to cm. What ever the distance to target in meters, convert to cm (M * 100 = cm), divide by 1000 and you have cm/MIL at that distance.

The big catch, is that when converting to MIL, T1 is not going to be at 0,0 MIL on the scope.

I'll do 200M since I know my dope for that distance:
All numbers in MIL, all from 0,0 on the scope, aiming point is T1 for all shots. 1 MIL = 20 cm.
T1 - 0, .6 U
T2 - .57 L, .17 U
T3 - .65 R, 1.20 U
T4 - .89 L, 1.17 U

How am I doing?

 

[sled_mack]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

OK, still lunch time. 50 meters. I'm going to pick a number here, and guess that my dope for 50 M is .2 MIL up. So...

All numbers in MIL, all from 0,0 on scope, aiming point is T1 for all shots. 1 MIL = 5 cm.
T1 - 0, .2 U
T2 - 2.29 L, 1.51 D
T3 - 2.60 R, 2.61 U
T4 - 3.56 L, 2.49 U

I would like to know if I'm on the right track here, or if I missed something.

And I'm just keeping the 2 decimal places for math purposes. I'm not implying that I could hold that last .0x for the shot.

I think I should be putting a page with some notes on this in my data book. It's one thing to do the math when you have time to think about it. It's another thing to do it during the time pressure in a match. Fun stuff though.

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, still lunch time. 50 meters. I'm going to pick a number here, and guess that my dope for 50 M is .2 MIL up. So...

All numbers in MIL, all from 0,0 on scope, aiming point is T1 for all shots. 1 MIL = 5 cm.
T1 - 0, .2 U
T2 - 2.29 L, 1.51 D
T3 - 2.60 R, 2.61 U
T4 - 3.56 L, 2.49 U

I would like to know if I'm on the right track here, or if I missed something.

And I'm just keeping the 2 decimal places for math purposes. I'm not implying that I could hold that last .0x for the shot.

I think I should be putting a page with some notes on this in my data book. It's one thing to do the math when you have time to think about it. It's another thing to do it during the time pressure in a match. Fun stuff though. </div></div>

My first post was pretty much that - I did everything right there and then as quickly as I could in inches (because I was working with yards). I wanted to test myself out to see what I could come up with under pressure.

I will probably include some version of this in one of my matches, and give props to the creator.

"The Hellbender Stage."

--Fargo007

 

[jbailey]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I will probably include some version of this in one of my matches, and give props to the creator.

"The Hellbender Stage."

--Fargo007


</div></div>

Very sweet! I lobbied Freddy for this one, so now I need to go practice it with my training buddies in the field - don't want to NO GO it w/ BHTC!

 

[gugubica]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

OK

At 100 yards,
target 2: 1.26 mils left, .95 down
Target 3: 1.44 mils right, 1.33 mils up
target 4: 0.53 mils left, 2.59 mils up

All from the visable target.

At 87 yards,
target 2: 1.44 left, 1.08 down
target 3: 1.64 right, 1.52 up
target 4: 0.6 left, 2.96 up

At 215 yards,
target 2: 0.58 left, 0.44 down
target 3: 0.666 right, 0.618 up
Target 4: 0.244 left, 1.203 up

Lets see what everybody comes up with at these ranges!

 

[gugubica]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

I used odd ranges so everyone couldn't just half or double data.

Do you guys that are wanting to use this in a match want me to post the easy method or not?

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used odd ranges so everyone couldn't just half or double data.

Do you guys that are wanting to use this in a match want me to post the easy method or not? </div></div>

Looking at the adjustments and the distances, I can see that you already did.

I think 'bender was looking for the actual scope adjustments. So since the precision we have on the scope is .1 MIL, you still need to decide to round either up or down.

--Fargo007

 

[sled_mack]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Fargo-
It is your keen interest in this thread that has me thinking I should be making notes in my log book. Something tells me I'll see it again one day!

And reading comprehension is key... I just realized I had different numbers for the last target than you guys. After about the fifth time I read Hellbender's post I realized that T4 is reference from T3, not the orange dot. And that wasn't even under pressure of a match.

gugubica-
I'd be curious to hear what your easy method is, just to see if it is any real amount different from what I was doing.
ETA - I see it now. How can the obvious be so hidden at times?

 

[CommAV8OR]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Although my first impression was DUDE WTF!!!!



I like it. This is Sick and an Original Idea.



I'm gonna add this to my playdates

 

[Hellbender]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

gugubica was the only one to hit all 4 targets at the match (of course I wasn't shooting.....

....right)

And he did figure out a simpler way to make it work than what I was thinking, I know the basics of what he did, but not the details.

I would have figured out my dope for my zero range (100 yards) during lunch, and then used a multiplier at the firing position to convert my dope to the ranged distance.

How would you guys have figured the multiplier??

Remember, they had a lot of time during lunch to discuss this and do the math, but on the firing line, three minutes goes fast, so you needed to do as much as possible beforehand.

 

[fargo007]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gugubica was the only one to hit all 4 targets at the match (of course I wasn't shooting.....

....right)

And he did figure out a simpler way to make it work than what I was thinking, I know the basics of what he did, but not the details.

I would have figured out my dope for my zero range (100 yards) during lunch, and then used a multiplier at the firing position to convert my dope to the ranged distance.

How would you guys have figured the multiplier??

Remember, they had a lot of time during lunch to discuss this and do the math, but on the firing line, three minutes goes fast, so you needed to do as much as possible beforehand.

</div></div>

Nice shooting Gu-

:-D

Way to own it.

--Fargo007

 

[gugubica]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Thanks Fargo, it was more proof of concept then ability.

I started out by triging this out like Hellbender described, then, I thought I would check my math with ranging software...click, the light bulb went of.

Process:

Required, LRF and ranging software.

Determine what 1 inch mils to at the range of the target. Why 1 inch? Because that's what I converted the given adjustments to...it does not matter that I shoot mils.

Plug 1 inch as the target size into software, enter different mil values until you get the actual rage...done, that is your multiplier for every target. Take that number and multiply it by the distance you need to hold off, example, if you find that a 1 inch target mils at .18 mils, multiply that by 4.5 to get the left correction to target 2.

The theory is that the center to center distance of 4.5 inches is the same as edge to edge distance of a 4.5 inch wide target, so when you find the mil of said target at a known distance you have the center to center correction. You could also enter each correction distance into your software to get the angular correction, but I think getting the constant for a 1 inch and multiplying is faster.

You can do this with any unit, just make sure that it matches what you converted the given distances to and that you use that unit in your software.

If you converted to cm, use 1 cm, feet, 1 foot...etc.

You do need to have ranging software to do this, but really, there is no excuse not to...I used my cell phone.

 

[gugubica]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Oh, and don't forget to add or subtract the values to your dope for the range.

I would recommend dialing your dope and holding the target corrections, or you could dail your dope then count the correction clicks.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Everyone is doing it in mils so far so I'll throw in my .02 for my system (IPHY)!

Convert all measurements to inches!

Target one I'll call "Zero" and work from there.

Target two - 4 1/2" left / 3 3/8 down from "zero"
Target three - 5 1/8" right / 4 3/4" up from "zero"
Target four - 1 7/8" left / 9 1/4 up from "zero"

Now depending on Range! Divide my above figures by Range in hundreds of yards (eg. 187 yards would use 1.87 or 87 yards would use .87) and make the adjustment from my Target One "Zero"

So, as stated above make a diagram of target setup with measurements. As soon as I get a known range divide all the figures by that number (range in hundreds). Write the results on the Range Card and dial in for Target One.

Curious as to my outcome!

This is great stage for a comp!

Nice work!

 

[tnichols]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

And I thought I was working/practicing hard to have all my bases covered if I were to go to a precision/tactical rifle match. Then I read this...now my brain hurts

 

[mkollman74]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Dastardly (but fun)!!

 

[Tomcat]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Range, shoot, and hopefully hit target 1
Then
aim 4.5 down 3 L - shoot
from that
aim 13.02 R, 12.07 L - shoot
from that
aim 7 L , 114.3 R - shoot

easy peasy lemon squeezy

 

[greentimber]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Floyd, I don't even know what you just said!

That's bad. Good thing my crown is crooked, my scope clicks broke, my ammo is loaded without the powder, ummm... what other excuses can I come up with? Oh, my favorite- The radiation off the power lines bent my reticle.

 

[rickp]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

Ok,
Here's how I came to an answer.
Lets use 180y as the range.
I converted all the metric distances to inches. then converted the inches to mils.

So...
I figured .1 mil=.648" @180y
then using the 1" target we could see as my center hold for all other targets I would place targets 2,3 & 4 as follows.

Target 2: .7mils x .5mils
Target 3: .8mils x .7
Target 4: 1.1 x.7

Windage holds are not including wind, so I would add or take away as necessary.

Lets hope I didn't embarrass myself. I suck at math too.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Re: "Know your Scope" exercise at match...TOUGH!!

1- Range the target in yards
2- Convert all offsets to inches (I'm an MOA guy)
3- Adjust elevation and shoot the shoot'n'see (this will include sighters)
4- Adjust elevation/wind OPPOSITE of desired target 1 keeping track of adjustments.
5- Aim and fire at shoot'n'see
6- Return to zero
7- Repeat 4-6 for target 2
8- Repeat 4-6 for target 3


The reason I think that'd work for me is I like to have my crosshairs ON something which this allows me to do. I feel I can focus better if I have a visual confirmation I'm not moving, jerking, etc. and the shoot'n'see would be my reference point.