Knowledge Request - Current FFL Regulations on out-of-state transfers from private party

[chrome]

All,

Looking for some third party verification/advice on current regulations/practice for FFLs and how they receive out-of-state transfers from private parties. I am a relatively new transplant to my current locale, and I've only used this FFL a few times, so I take 100% responsibility for not triple checking this with them beforehand.

However, I had a rifle shipped in from a private party (non-ffl), out of state, and when I went to go pick it up today, they informed me this transfer isn't ready, and for all intents and purposes this rifle is "in transfer jail", and at high risk of being sent back to the sender since it didn't originate from an FFL. The manager at the store quoted "inter-state commerce laws, and the ATF will have a shit fit about this.."

I've been buying guns for 14+ years now just as a data point, and I have honestly never run into this issue to date with 50+ of out-of-state transfers into FFLs. Some quick google-fu yields these two attached documents which seem to give the green light pretty clearly an FFL can accept an out-of-state transfer from a private party. Purpose of this post is not to generate a bunch of info to go crush my FFL with, and I definitely understand he has the right to run his business 100% the way he sees fit, but honestly just looking into this for my own edification moving forward.

Thoughts on the below, These sources seem current via ATF website:

 

[Sean the Nailer]

There's a whole thread about this, stickied, in the DIY section. Hope that helps.

(it's been there for many years)

 

[chrome]

Shit, sorry I missed that, thx.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Your FFL is re-fucking-tarded.

 

[Bigfatcock]

I bet you won’t hit him!

 

[Northfl]

Were you in shooters wed? I was there and a guy was raising sand about this same thing. Guy behind the counter was telling him they were just following the law. That every other ffl was wrong

 

[Northfl]

My bad. Was Tuesday i was in there

 

[chrome]

Thx for the ping, but i wasn't in JAX for this one.

 

[Northfl]

ok. Wasnt you then. All good

 

[Waorani]

Many FFLs won't accept transfers from individuals. Doesn't make sense to me but that's their choice. Was the transfer not coordinated w/ your FFL ahead of time? Didn't they have to send copy of their FFL to seller? Seems the details of transfer from non-FFL would have come up.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Many FFLs won't accept transfers from individuals. Doesn't make sense to me but that's their choice. Was the transfer not coordinated w/ your FFL ahead of time? Didn't they have to send copy of their FFL to seller? Seems the details of transfer from non-FFL would have come up.

Correct it is their choice, the law says they can. The issue is they believe they CAN NOT.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I have delt with this a few times. I live a few miles from the world famous Impact Guns. I have been a customer since they were a little shit hole store in a back alley. Pushing 25 years. And everytime I have done a private transfer across state lines (requires FFL) some douche bag sales idiot on the floor says "NO!!!!". I then tell them they are wrong and ask for the manager and he sometimes says " NO" or "I am not sure we can do that". I show him the ATF regulations and he gets the "shipping/recieving" guy who says " hell yea we do it every day".

People are FUCKING retarded.

 

[chrome]

Many FFLs won't accept transfers from individuals. Doesn't make sense to me but that's their choice. Was the transfer not coordinated w/ your FFL ahead of time? Didn't they have to send copy of their FFL to seller? Seems the details of transfer from non-FFL would have come up.

Good question. Technically not specifically coordinated ahead of time for this particular transfer, but they gave me a copy of their FFL/SOT for prior transfers which influenced me not having the discussion ahead of time (once again, 100% on me).

 

[chrome]

I have delt with this a few times. I live a few miles from the world famous Impact Guns. I have been a customer since they were a little shit hole store in a back alley. Pushing 25 years. And everytime I have done a private transfer across state lines (requires FFL) some douche bag sales idiot on the floor says "NO!!!!". I then tell them they are wrong and ask for the manager and he sometimes says " NO" or "I am not sure we can do that". I show him the ATF regulations and he gets the "shipping/recieving" guy who says " hell yea we do it every day".

People are FUCKING retarded.

Thanks for the data point above. I am still waiting on the official determination if this transfer gets denied, and I may not find out in time to defend my position (if I go that route).

I guess what i am searching for in my mind is what has happened within this industry that influences an FFL's thinking to deny personal OOS transfers? What case study, case law, precedent, situation, etc, has made them scared to do this, especially in the light of what seems to be clear ATF regulations allowing for it? Ultimately, the honest question, what is the risk and how often does that risk materialize in these situations?

Worst case scenario this gets shipped back and it takes another 2 weeks to do the round robin back to me, could be a lot worse in the end.

 

[Waorani]

Good question. Technically not specifically coordinated ahead of time for this particular transfer, but they gave me a copy of their FFL/SOT for prior transfers which influenced me not having the discussion ahead of time (once again, 100% on me).

Understandable. I have copies of a couple local FFLs but still always email a request for them to send directly just so they know what's up. Did seller include copy of their DL? Hopefully you're just talking to the wrong folks at that place. But if not, convincing them they are wrong probably won't be easy. I'd probalby look for a more user friendly FFL.

 

[Nik H]

This has happened to some buds I know in a couple of different shops.

The reason always is ignorance on the part of the receiving FFL. Most of them are incredibly ignorant of the laws. To protect yourself in the future, you should discuss the policy in use at that particular shop before you arrange the delivery. Saves a ton of headaches. Then stick with that FFL.

Although no law prevents an FFL from accepting a delivery from a private individual from out of state, the fact is many won't. It is their prerogative and they will tell you to fuck off and go elsewhere. Some can be rude about it.

This is as bad but not as bad as the FFL dealers charging a fee for transfer that is a % of the price versus charging a flat fee. Some actually do it. I told one to suck a bag of dicks when I found out. Thankfully, it was before the arrangement was made.

 

[308pirate]

I guess what i am searching for in my mind is what has happened within this industry that influences an FFL's thinking to deny personal OOS transfers? What case study, case law, precedent, situation, etc, has made them scared to do this, especially in the light of what seems to be clear ATF regulations allowing for it? Ultimately, the honest question, what is the risk and how often does that risk materialize in these situations?

Worst case scenario this gets shipped back and it takes another 2 weeks to do the round robin back to me, could be a lot worse in the end.

All it takes is one ATF agent who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground to make a negative comment about the 100% lawful practice of a non-FFL mailing a long gun or shipping via common carrier any firearm to an FFL in a different state for a transfer and FFLs everywhere act like fucking morons.

There is absolutely NOTHING that even questions the legality of what your seller did. People are idiots and no amount of rational thinking or explanation will appease them.

Find an intelligent FFL and then pay whatever he requires to remain in his good graces.

 

[chrome]

Understandable. I have copies of a couple local FFLs but still always email a request for them to send directly just so they know what's up. Did seller include copy of their DL? Hopefully you're just talking to the wrong folks at that place. But if not, convincing them they are wrong probably won't be easy. I'd probalby look for a more user friendly FFL.

Agreed, lesson learned for sure on my part. I primarily have done most of my transfers in Florida where the shop was super flexible and chill on out of state transfers, but we are temporarily living in Northern VA, and I am still finding my way with preferred FFLs.

The seller did include a copy of his state DL. Unfortunately the people I am talking to are the owners, and my few interactions with them have been less than impressive from a customer standpoint, but the bar was set high while in Florida.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Thanks for the data point above. I am still waiting on the official determination if this transfer gets denied, and I may not find out in time to defend my position (if I go that route).

I guess what i am searching for in my mind is what has happened within this industry that influences an FFL's thinking to deny personal OOS transfers? What case study, case law, precedent, situation, etc, has made them scared to do this, especially in the light of what seems to be clear ATF regulations allowing for it? Ultimately, the honest question, what is the risk and how often does that risk materialize in these situations?

Worst case scenario this gets shipped back and it takes another 2 weeks to do the round robin back to me, could be a lot worse in the end.

I am going to tell you a little a little story.

I am a mechanic (posted that before) I have a part of my customer base that 100% +100% refuses to use pennzoil products.

This is because they believe Pennzoil is shit and damages engines. They fail to understand that this old "wife's tell" comes from when the oil fields in Pennsylvania started to run low/dry. The oil was of very low quality. That was 80ish years ago.

They fail to grasp that time has passed. That Pennsoil is just a brand that has been bought and sold many times. That we now know a lot more than we did 80 years ago.

And that my friend is what you are dealing with. Either an old old ruling/regulation from 50 years ago or an internet rumor.

Set those mother fuckers straight.

 

[308pirate]

I am going to tell you a little a little story.

I am a mechanic (posted that before) I have a part of my customer base that 100% +100% refuses to use pennzoil products.

This is because they believe Penzoil is shit and damages engine. They fail to understand that this old "wife's tell" comes from when the oil fields in Pennsylvania started to run low/dry. The oil was of very low quality. That was 80ish years ago.

They fail to grasp that time has passed. That pensoil is just a brand that has been bought and sold many times. That we now know a lot more than we did 80 years ago.

And that my friend is what you are dealing with. Either an old old ruling/regulation from 50 years ago or an internet rumor.

Set those mother fuckers straight.

Are these the same people who bring their 100% computer controlled car in for a "tune up"

LOL

 

[2ndamendfan]

Are these the same people who bring their 100% computer controlled car in for a "tune up"

LOL

Basically yea.

 

[308pirate]

Basically yea.

Get that god damned Pennzoil outta my Rambler!!!!!

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Get that god damned Pennzoil outta my Rambler!!!!!

View attachment 7170979

The one with the "Push-Button Transmission".

 

[kenny1773]

I recently spoke to my FFL about this as I was thinking about buying something from out of state from someone I know.

I should also mention that my FFL is awesome, coolest FFL I have ever worked with.

He said, no problem, just make sure they 100% follow the rules of the shipping company they are going to use

So I started looking them up, you might want to show your FFL the UPS page

Shipping Special-Care or Regulated Items | UPS - United States

Learn about how to ship regulated and special care items with UPS, from perishables and wine to firearms and animals.

www.ups.com

UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer,, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.

USPS a non-ffl cannot mail a handgun, but a long gun is fine

432 Mailability | Postal Explorer

pe.usps.com

432.3
section d
Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.

can't find the direct fedex link, but theirs is similar to this

Shipping Legalities
Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL) only. The recipient must have an FFL; however the sender is not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose (including sale or resale).

 

[Supersubes]

All,

Looking for some third party verification/advice on current regulations/practice for FFLs and how they receive out-of-state transfers from private parties. I am a relatively new transplant to my current locale, and I've only used this FFL a few times, so I take 100% responsibility for not triple checking this with them beforehand.

However, I had a rifle shipped in from a private party (non-ffl), out of state, and when I went to go pick it up today, they informed me this transfer isn't ready, and for all intents and purposes this rifle is "in transfer jail", and at high risk of being sent back to the sender since it didn't originate from an FFL. The manager at the store quoted "inter-state commerce laws, and the ATF will have a shit fit about this.."

I've been buying guns for 14+ years now just as a data point, and I have honestly never run into this issue to date with 50+ of out-of-state transfers into FFLs. Some quick google-fu yields these two attached documents which seem to give the green light pretty clearly an FFL can accept an out-of-state transfer from a private party. Purpose of this post is not to generate a bunch of info to go crush my FFL with, and I definitely understand he has the right to run his business 100% the way he sees fit, but honestly just looking into this for my own edification moving forward.

Thoughts on the below, These sources seem current via ATF website:

View attachment 7170890

View attachment 7170891

They’re idiots. If someone came to them to send a gun to another state, they’d log it in as being received from the person, take some of their money for their trouble, and then send it off. EXACTLY what they’re doing now except the person isn’t standing in front of them, since it came as a parcel.

See if they’ll ship it down the road to the next FFL. They obviously want to wash their hands of it. Problem solved.

 

[chrome]

I recently spoke to my FFL about this as I was thinking about buying something from out of state from someone I know.

I should also mention that my FFL is awesome, coolest FFL I have ever worked with.

He said, no problem, just make sure they 100% follow the rules of the shipping company they are going to use

So I started looking them up, you might want to show your FFL the UPS page

Shipping Special-Care or Regulated Items | UPS - United States

Learn about how to ship regulated and special care items with UPS, from perishables and wine to firearms and animals.

www.ups.com

USPS a non-ffl cannot mail a handgun, but a long gun is fine

432 Mailability | Postal Explorer

pe.usps.com

can't find the direct fedex link, but theirs is similar to this

Shipping Legalities
Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL) only. The recipient must have an FFL; however the sender is not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose (including sale or resale).

Thanks for the above, good references. And agreed on the pistol via USPS, I remember learning that very early in my shooting career. Ultimately avoided USPS all together given their tracking systems are in the stone age compared to Fedex/UPS.

They’re idiots. If someone came to them to send a gun to another state, they’d log it in as being received from the person, take some of their money for their trouble, and then send it off. EXACTLY what they’re doing now except the person isn’t standing in front of them, since it came as a parcel.

See if they’ll ship it down the road to the next FFL. They obviously want to wash their hands of it. Problem solved.

Great idea regarding sending it to another FFL. Hopefully will find out later today what happens with this rifle.

 

[Supersubes]

Thanks for the above, good references. And agreed on the pistol via USPS, I remember learning that very early in my shooting career. Ultimately avoided USPS all together given their tracking systems are in the stone age compared to Fedex/UPS.



Great idea regarding sending it to another FFL. Hopefully will find out later today what happens with this rifle.

One other thing, if you haven’t checked already. Brownells has a really easy FFl search tool. Map based using zip code. You might be surprised how many of your neighbors are FFL’s. Many of the other distributors have a similar tool. Gunbroker does this.

 

[chrome]

Update: no determination given, owner of the shop is OOO. TBD Monday by COB.

 

[Maggot]

Agreed, lesson learned for sure on my part. I primarily have done most of my transfers in Florida where the shop was super flexible and chill on out of state transfers, but we are temporarily living in Northern VA, and I am still finding my way with preferred FFLs.

The seller did include a copy of his state DL. Unfortunately the people I am talking to are the owners, and my few interactions with them have been less than impressive from a customer standpoint, but the bar was set high while in Florida.

From now on, while in NOVA, go to Virginia Arms in Mananas. When Bernie owned it I dealt with them a lot and never had any problem. Cant testify as to the new owner but they deal with a lot of LEO's and military so they should be very familiar with laws, and flexible.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Is it possible that the seller lives in a state that requires an FFL to transfer any firearm out of state to another FFL and he was just ignorant of this before selling? This is the only reason I can see why an FFL might not accept transfer from an individual as some states require it by law to be shipped from one FFL to another.

 

[chrome]

Is it possible that the seller lives in a state that requires an FFL to transfer any firearm out of state to another FFL and he was just ignorant of this before selling? This is the only reason I can see why an FFL might not accept transfer from an individual as some states require it by law to be shipped from one FFL to another.

Good question, hadn't run into this before. FWIW, shipment originated in Louisiana.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Good question, hadn't run into this before. FWIW, shipment originated in Louisiana.

To my knowledge Louisiana has no such law in place but I haven’t checked either. Let me see...

 

[SilentStalkr]

Just checked the ATF site and as far as I can tell Louisiana has no law that says when selling a firearm across state lines that an FFL deal in Louisiana has to send it to the FFL in the state of the one buying the firearm. Some states require that. It appears that Louisiana does not. Anyway the most important thing is that it goes to the FFL dealer in the state of whoever is buying it. That is law. Doesn’t matter if it was shipped privately or not as long as the FFL is there to do the check in the buyers state and check it in, so to speak, in that state. I hope that makes sense. I’ve bought and sold tons of stuff this way. There is nothing illegal about it. Find you a local FFL dealer that will accept shipments from private parties!

 

[chrome]

From now on, while in NOVA, go to Virginia Arms in Mananas. When Bernie owned it I dealt with them a lot and never had any problem. Cant testify as to the new owner but they deal with a lot of LEO's and military so they should be very familiar with laws, and flexible.

Thanks for that POC. Ironically, found this shop just north of me that clearly outlines their policies (accepts private transfers). I'll find out tomorrow the fate of the action, but really hope if they wont do the transfer they'll atleast kick it over to this shop:

Firearms Transfers | Virginia Gun Dealers | NOVA Armory

NOVA Armory offers firearms transfers and FFL Licenses in Arlington, VA. Our gun transfers include handguns, receivers, frames & more. Visit our gun shop today.

www.novaarmory.com

 

[Maggot]

Thanks for that POC. Ironically, found this shop just north of me that clearly outlines their policies (accepts private transfers). I'll find out tomorrow the fate of the action, but really hope if they wont do the transfer they'll atleast kick it over to this shop:

Firearms Transfers | Virginia Gun Dealers | NOVA Armory

NOVA Armory offers firearms transfers and FFL Licenses in Arlington, VA. Our gun transfers include handguns, receivers, frames & more. Visit our gun shop today.

www.novaarmory.com

Nice find, they seem to lay it all out in an easy to follow format. Nice selection of firearms as well. Ill check them out.

 

[Rlandry]

I sent a 1911 to Ed Brown for some work. The requirement was it has to be sent 2nd Day Air by common carrier. They sent it back to me, adult signature required. That was it, no FFL involvement other than on their end.That was according to BATF requirments.

 

[Supersubes]

I sent a 1911 to Ed Brown for some work. The requirement was it has to be sent 2nd Day Air by common carrier. They sent it back to me, adult signature required. That was it, no FFL involvement other than on their end.That was according to BATF requirments.

That’s typical though. This differs in that the gun isn’t going back to who they received it from. Still no special requirements, but that’s tripping them up.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I sent a 1911 to Ed Brown for some work. The requirement was it has to be sent 2nd Day Air by common carrier. They sent it back to me, adult signature required. That was it, no FFL involvement other than on their end.That was according to BATF requirments.

Your 1911 is your property. 2nd day air is not a requirement from the government it is a requirement for UPS and FedEx after a rash of handguns being stolen in transit 20 years or so ago.
In the OP's case he has not completed the purchase yet and so it is not his property yet. Any purchase that crosses state lines requires an FFL receive the firearm and log it into their log books. Before then transferring it to the buyer. Before the buyer can take possession he must fill out a 4473 and pass a background check.

 

[SilentStalkr]

I sent a 1911 to Ed Brown for some work. The requirement was it has to be sent 2nd Day Air by common carrier. They sent it back to me, adult signature required. That was it, no FFL involvement other than on their end.That was according to BATF requirments.

That’s typical though. This differs in that the gun isn’t going back to who they received it from. Still no special requirements, but that’s tripping them up.

Your 1911 is your property. 2nd day air is not a requirement from the government it is a requirement for UPS and FedEx after a rash of handguns being stolen in transit 20 years or so ago.
In the OP's case he has not completed the purchase yet and so it is not his property yet. Any purchase that crosses state lines requires an FFL receive the firearm and log it into their log books. Before then transferring it to the buyer. Before the buyer can take possession he must fill out a 4473 and pass a background check.

Also to note Rlandry, you are sending YOUR pistol into Ed Brown (an FFL/manufacturer) for work. The gun is simply being sent in for work or maintenance, it’s not changing owners so this is perfectly fine and a totally different scenario than the OP is talking about. As mentioned earlier, let’s try not to trip him up.

 

[chrome]

Waiting for a call back from the original FFL on their final word. I have confirmed with two other local FFLs they'll accept the shipment either from this denying FFL and/or a private party.

Very much regret not doing more market research on this earlier, lesson learned.

 

[chrome]

Final Update: Firearm in hand finally. The owner was adamant his policy protects him and me, but given I've transferred items there before and that he "knows me", he allowed the transfer.

Lots of lessons learned, and also new FFLs found throughout the process who'll get a new customer moving forward.

 

[kenny1773]

glad it ended well, but all that means is that this FFL knows 100% what the law is and what he can and cannot do
he was just being an ass

 

[Jgunner]

Tell the ffl to do his job or send it to someone who will.

fedex wanted 150 bucks to ship a 10/22 a couple states over, “had to be 2 day air’d” is what this retard told me. Soi showed him fedex policy from THEIR site. Tried to tell me it would be less if it was from ffl to ffl, even though i was legal and sending to an ffl. i asked him why he is stone walling me, let me ship my legal package the Legal way for a reasonable fee. He said no. So i let at him with as many 4 letter words as i could muster, told him to go back to California where they appreciate his defectiveness.

 

[Northfl]

I was shipping a stock to alex sitman to get an adjustable comb installed. Ups store said we dont ship guns. I had to explain to the girl that it was only a block of wood its not a gun. They shipped it though. Stupid ass people i swear

 

[2ndamendfan]

I was shipping a stock to alex sitman to get an adjustable comb installed. Ups store said we dont ship guns. I had to explain to the girl that it was only a block of wood its not a gun. They shipped it though. Stupid ass people i swear

So in the not to distance past I shipped a stock to a friend. He claimed he wanted a custom stock, but hell he wont use it. What a Bee-otch.

Talking about you @1J04

Anyway I tried UPS store also and they said no go also. I argued for about 15 seconds screw them, USPS did not even ask what was in the box.

I normally I like UPS but this time was they were stupid.