I'm not having much luck with the search function but as the title suggests... Kowa Prominar vs Vortex Razor of equivalent objective lens- has the Hide argued this?
-LD
-LD
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what if he’s talking about kowa genisis prominar vs razor UHD binos….? Different story imoI have both...
Kowa TSN88 and the Votrex Razor 85 Sorry its no comparison...the Kowa is in a completely different league to the Vortex!!!
No worries... i just instantly presumed it was spotting scopes..what if he’s talking about kowa genisis prominar vs razor UHD binos….? Different story imo
…but I do agree…if it’s the spotters…it’s no contest the kowa for sure.
I have the razor HD it's fine although they've shifted to china for their razors which pisses me off a lot. Sportsmans had them on sale for 769 with a stand and a 100$ gift card. It's better than my older Kowa but not by a lot, compared to a friend's swarovski it's not as good but not by a lot. The reason a lot of people get the kowa is the long eye relief eyepiece it's just really really nice to get behind.
Also the razor has fine eye relief, no problem with sunglasses at 25x-30x, my older leupold and burris spotters you have to shove your eyeball against it.
I'm always learning (or at least try to be)- I see now that it should be written it as "Highpower" rather than a previous post I made calling it "High Power" but would humbly offer as an excuse that spellcheck did me wrong. It sounds like you have a good handle on what put me along this path at least.I have been using the TSN 663 for over 10 years shooting Highpower. Kowa is the favored company in Highpower, not just because of glass and image quality, but because of the eyepiece feature. The LER (Long Eye Relief) 25/27X eyepiece allows you to shoot in position and still be able to easily glance through the scope at the same time. No need to break position befind the gun to check the target or wind/mirage.
Birdwatchers, a somewhat finicky/odd bunch, choose high-end optics and love to argue merits of each one. Kowa is at the top of their list too. Their view of Vortex Razor is that the scope is slightly a step below Kowa, but still very good.
Biggest downside to Kowa is the lack of an eyepice reticle option.
I appreciate the input Keith,OP,
Having dabbled in F-Class for a while, I was able to peep through numerous spotters by just asking for permission. I sold my old Leupold spotter after picking up a Kowa Prominar 883. I still look through different glass when possible. The only thing that would get me away from my 883 is trying the Kowa Prominar 99 and seeing a substantial increase in performance.
YMMV,
Keith
Would you mind me asking how much you appreciate/use the dual focus that the Kowa offers (aside from glass quality)? I've been pretty happy with being able to 'dial in' with the Razor but admittedly don't know what I might be missing with that option.I have had them all (including the Big 3 Euro Models) and the Kowa stands above them all. They simply have the formula dialed for spotters. Some people don't like the fact that they don't have the protective rubber armour, I could care less. I just wrapped mine with some cheap camo stretchy wrap and it works great.
I appreciate the input Keith,
I reckon that's the root of my uncertainty- not having the opportunity to look through other options to understand what I'm missing out on but also not looking to drop 10's of thousands of dollars buying all the different options that are recommended just to make myself smarter. Certainly good feedback though.
-LD
Well Sir- you certainly put me down a rabbit hole tonight based off of your comment (I can't seem to locate the LER eyepiece just yet but I know that I placed it somewhere where I wouldn't lose it which for some reason is away from the rest of the boxes...) but your 'made in China' comment made me pull everything out that I could find tonight (instead of going to bed as I planned to)... Apologies for the 'spaghetti' pictures but hopefully it can still add at least some value to the discussion...
You will never see a High Power (that is the proper spelling, I was using "shorthand") "Across The Course" stand at PRS matches due to their slow set-up, but I do see some PRS "style" tripods that lay legs flat at XTC matches. The general concensus on the Polecat is that it is a bit "wobbly" in the standing height. The 1" is a lot more stable. Yes, many shops stopped making stands due to the shrinking numbers of High Power shooters. But there are still a few in addition to Creedmoor, such as Freeland and Ray-Vin classic tripods. Ray-Vin is now made by HicTec. They have some cool short tripods for F-class or bench use:Highpower shooters use a vertical shaft with a tripod base as opposed to PRS shooters that use traditional tripods.....
Creedmoor's PoleCat V2 scope stand... am I interpreting the data correctly that by opting for the 1" I'll essentially be acquiring a more stable/heavier product and platform than their 3/4" model?
However, we still like to read mirage to indicate wind 100-200 yards in front of the target. That is where the difference between a Kowa and a cheaper scope is most obvious.
Perfect excuse for a "hey look at my gun" pic:
Mine says "Made in China" on the bottom of it and it's definitely a Razor lol.
This is what I have:
Vortex Razor HD 20-60x85 Spotting Scope - Angled
Vortex Razor HD 20-60x85 Spotting Scope - Angled - Simply one of the finest spotting scopes you can buy, the top-tier Razor HD spotting scope competes at the highest level of performance. The sophisticated triplet apochromatic lens system delivers high-definition views across the entire field of...www.sportsmans.com
I pretty much only use the small focus knob. The large focus knob for me is if the spotter gets out of focus riding in my backpack. I digiscope quite a bit as well and it works great in that capacity also.Would you mind me asking how much you appreciate/use the dual focus that the Kowa offers (aside from glass quality)? I've been pretty happy with being able to 'dial in' with the Razor but admittedly don't know what I might be missing with that option.
Really appreciate you sharing that all with me- that does seem to support everything that I've been able to dig up in my own research but you can't beat personal experience. As a fun story- I was rather amazed last year on how different our eyes work. I was testing out the 85mm spotting scope with Vortex's reticle eyepiece and where one fellow could see the reticle perfectly- I had to screw around rather significantly for it to appear to my eyes, let alone bring it in focus.Having seen a few spotters here and there....
As far as pure image quality with spotters goes, I think Kowa Prominar is the best we currently have. 88mm is fantastic. 99mm is unbelievable. If Kowa made an eyepiece with a reticle, I would be running one of these. I think Swaro's binocular eyepiece gives it an edge for prolonged observation, but in terms of pure image, to me, Kowa has an edge.
Between Kowa Prominar and Vortex Razor spotters, for the large models (88mm vs 85mm), Kowa is a better image. Kowa is also a more expensive spotter, so whether this image quality difference is worth the price difference for you is a personal choice.
On long eye relief eyepiece: Vortex does make one that is 22x on the 85mm model and 17x on the 65mm model. I tested it with a 65mm body and was quite imrpessed with it. They have a version of the same long eye relief eyepiece with a reticle (85 model only). It works quite nicely, but then again, I tend to not run spotter magnification super high, so 22x worked fine for me.
As far as where Razor spotters are made, that changed a couple of times. They started out in Japan with the Gen1 spotter. As their volumes went up, production of Gen1 spotters moved to China. I think that was right around the time they introduced the first gen 50mm spotter. When they went to Gen2 (helical focuser version), the spotter ended up with US assembly primarily out of Japanese glass and US made parts.
Gen1 Burris Signature HD spotter is essentially what Gen 1 Razor used to be, which is why their eyepiece fits. I think Vortex also used to offer that eyepiece with their Gen1 spotter. I vaguely remember testing it. Good image quality, though eyerelief was a little on the short side.
This SHOT show Burris showed a Gen2 of their spotter that also went to a helical focuser. I think the Gen1 eyepiece is compatible with the new body.
That's a depth of field issue. What model is the Razor and how far away are you from the object you're observing?I currently have the 1st gen Razor. My biggest complaint is the focus. It is so "precise" that if I am looking at something that is moving, if it moves a couple steps away it goes out of focus and I have to adjust. I am constantly having to adjust the focus.
I have been thinking about the Kowa Prominar, however have no way of looking thru one. Does anyone have any thoughts on the focus and if it constantly needs adjustment? Or is my old eyes?
Bill
It is a 20-60x85. Have the issue at any distance I am looking at.That's a depth of field issue. What model is the Razor and how far away are you from the object you're observing?
You will never see a High Power (that is the proper spelling, I was using "shorthand") "Across The Course" stand at PRS matches due to their slow set-up, but I do see some PRS "style" tripods that lay legs flat at XTC matches. The general concensus on the Polecat is that it is a bit "wobbly" in the standing height. The 1" is a lot more stable. Yes, many shops stopped making stands due to the shrinking numbers of High Power shooters. But there are still a few in addition to Creedmoor, such as Freeland and Ray-Vin classic tripods. Ray-Vin is now made by HicTec. They have some cool short tripods for F-class or bench use:
In all honesty, the High Power stand is not practical anywhere outside of High Power. Even the best 1" pole by Ray-Vin has some wobble or tremors when used standing and scoring practical matches. Binoculars are much better than staring through a single eyepiece. If you are scoring on a practical event with several targets, trying to move a scope around and find them is more difficult. As to the benefit of a 20-60X vs the 25X LER, the higher magnification is hardly used. It does have some practicality such as spotting for a smaller target like 1MOA steel at longer distance.
As for E-targets eliminating the need for scopes, that is somewhat correct. However, we still like to read mirage to indicate wind 100-200 yards in front of the target. That is where the difference between a Kowa and a cheaper scope is most obvious.
Perfect excuse for a "hey look at my gun" pic:
@smoothy8500 what kind of tripod is that?