Lake City Brass - Headstamp chart?

[simonp]

So perhaps my google fu is lacking but doing a search online yielded disappointing result. I was looking for some form of chart that lists the various headstamps on Lake City brass.

By way of background.

I have started sorting my fire formed LC brass by year, this was once fired brass I purchased, loaded with 55's to fireform to my barrel before sorting through and starting the process of using it for 69 or 77 SMK's. The normal or most common headstamp is easy enough, the two digits represent the year. However I have some LC marked brass that does not have that two year marking, some of it is marked .223 and some of it is not. Would that be LC brass produced for commercial use instead of military? Any real differentiation on the quality of the brass?

Obviously, I am culling this brass and putting it to one side and further I am putting all the 223 aside as a group to make sure I dont load it to 5.56 pressures.

Thanks

 

[nn8734]

There’s no difference between 223 and 556 lc brass to my knowledge. It’s just marked that way from LC to differentiate to what pressure it was loaded to (223 or 556).

Sorting by head stamp won’t make any difference-sort by weight instead if you looking for best case capacity consistency.

What rifles are you loading for? What powder and primer you using?

 

[simonp]

I am using Reloder 10 and Federal Primers for the 69 SMK(s) right now.

 

[nn8734]

What rifle(s)? If its for carbines with red dots or lpvos I wouldn’t bother with any sorting of anything, just load and go. If its for a SPR/DMR, sorting may help but my mk12 (and/or me) cant tell the difference between weigth sorted brass and ogive sorted 77smks vs when i just load without sorting anything in advance.

Im using AA2520 and R7-1/2 primers (and LC brass).

 

[simonp]

Current rifle that I am loading for is a carbine with a 18" WOA barrel and LPVO so sorting may be overkill.

Will be loading for a service rifle down the line too though, debating about virgin Starline brass for that or using 1x LC brass.

 

[nn8734]

Current rifle that I am loading for is a carbine with a 18" WOA barrel and LPVO so sorting may be overkill.

Will be loading for a service rifle down the line too though, debating about virgin Starline brass for that or using 1x LC brass.

Yea wouldnt bother for that rifle…

I would buy some premium brass for service rifle and develop loads with that brass and the 1x LC stuff (do all the sorting, brass prep, etc to both) and see if the juice is worth the extra squeeze for the premo brass in your service match rifle.

 

[M4orturnate]

Not worth the time. Also the weight of the brass does not dictate capacity so weight sorti g is a total waste of time. If you want best accuracy it has to be from the same lot not just manufacture. Not worth it for 500y and in shooting especially with a gas gun

 

[OkieMike]

Target Sports USA used to sell it... They're the only retailer I could find that ever sold it. But I didn't exactly break my neck looking either.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/tar...5-grain-fmj-1000-rounds-lc223bk-p-110563.aspx

I gotta wonder how many boxcar loads of overrun you have to buy before you can negotiate a different headstamp.

It's standard Lake City brass. Proceed accordingly.

Mike

 

[Snuby642]

Current rifle that I am loading for is a carbine with a 18" WOA barrel and LPVO so sorting may be overkill.

Will be loading for a service rifle down the line too though, debating about virgin Starline brass for that or using 1x LC brass.

Don't buy virgin 223 brass unless maybe bench rest competition.

You want first fired for accuracy and case capacity.

I headstamp sort the brass and fully prep it including 0.002 mandrell also bump it 0.003 - 0.004 under for ar's.

You can get very good results with no more work or expense than that.

 

[Molon]

Also the weight of the brass does not dictate capacity so weight sorti g is a total waste of time.

"Dictates"? Maybe not. Correlates? Absolutely.

...

 

[Snuby642]

Did every case get the same charge?

Cases with more volume need more powder than smaller cases to get the same speeds.

Was this virgin brass or all first fired from same gun.

This was what kind of a test?

 

[Molon]

This was what kind of a test?

The kind of test that provided 100% more first hand data on the subject matter than you did.

...

 

[Haney]

The kind of test that provided 100% more first hand data on the subject matter than you did.

...

Winner !

 

[Haney]

Did every case get the same charge?

Cases with more volume need more powder than smaller cases to get the same speeds.

Was this virgin brass or all first fired from same gun.

This was what kind of a test?

Damn , you just don't get it . Like these words of bullshit you wrote..."You want first fired for accuracy and case capacity"...

How is a random piece of brass from the range more accurate than virgin brass that starts out at SAAMI specs ? How did you conduct that test?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

For those that want to know. My H20 test showed Starline virgin brass to be very close to lapua in case capacity. Confirmed by MV testing loaded with TAC.

 

[supercorndogs]

The kind of test that provided 100% more first hand data on the subject matter than you did.

...

I don't see how there is enough there to glean much from it, in relation to the statement that weight sorting LC brass doesn't relate to its internal capacity. Are you saying weight sorted LC is more consistent for internal capacity?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I don't see how there is enough there to glean much from it, in relation to the statement that weight sorting LC brass doesn't relate to its internal capacity. Are you saying weight sorted LC is more consistent for internal capacity?

I think he just had some relevant info and provided it.

 

[Snuby642]

None of it like your own first fired or even range brass.

Compare it after sizing on your die.

Virgin brass is shit.

 

[RegionRat]

Virgin brass is shit.

Here is another "arrow or indian" metaphor...

I never liked fire forming brass, but not so long ago that was the only way to get certain 6 BR variants like 6 Dasher for example.

We took virgin Lapua 6 BR and fire formed it.

I was talked into the caliber by some friends who had more trigger time than me and were accomplished shooters.

I was just going to go with straight 6 BR and have it over with for use as a club gun for mid-range 600 yard prone matches, but they talked be into it by winning in matches during their fire forming..... that isn't just virgin brass but brass that is being blown to a wildcat during the match.

I will say this a different way for folks who don't compete.

A mid range match is three strings of 20 shots for record, with unlimited sighters. So guess that you will burn 60 rounds plus anywhere from 6 to 20 sighters. I watched as they took and fire formed 6 BR into 6 Dasher during a well attended match and won against a tough field of shooters.

So much for virgin brass being shit... that exercise convinced me to go ahead with 6 Dasher all those years ago, and later on you could buy it already formed. I have both Alpha 6 Dasher and still have fire formed Lapua. Both shoot great.

The takeaway is... if the brass is high quality to being with, the novice needs to spend time learning the difference in the performance of the virgin and fire formed brass. Some energy is spent expanding and flowing the case to the walls of the chamber, but it isn't by itself the reason to condemn all virgin brass. YMMV

 

[spife7980]

Many find virgin bras to be the best there is. Its just not the same component condition as it is for the rest of the barrels life once its been fired.

 

[Snuby642]

My point is if you develop loads with virgin brass you will have to change it once you have fire formed all of it.

Buying new brass and running it to experation is one thing. You still end up two loads.

I consider virgin brass in an ar about as usefull as factory loads.

Many I have measured have 0.007 - 0.008 headspace for starters.

That brass has a lot if room to bounce around, same with buying thier unloaded brass.

My dies won't move it except for the Sinclair mandrell.

I like to use fire formed brass to eliminate wasted time and materials.

My dies work it all down to my preference, they are all the same.
The amount of variance has then been reduced but I still sort headstamps. The powder drop is normaly within 0.6g between brass changes. A short ladder test and right back to normal.

My preferred 223 brass is left all over every range due to a perception and stupidity problem.

Volumetric water test of virgin brass doesn't replace testing resized brass from your dies.

Life is short.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

My point is if you develop loads with virgin brass you will have to change it once you have fire formed all of it.

Buying new brass and running it to experation is one thing. You still end up two loads.

I consider virgin brass in an ar about as usefull as factory loads.

Many I have measured have 0.007 - 0.008 headspace for starters.

That brass has a lot if room to bounce around, same with buying thier unloaded brass.

My dies won't move it except for the Sinclair mandrell.

I like to use fire formed brass to eliminate wasted time and materials.

My dies work it all down to my preference, they are all the same.
The amount of variance has then been reduced but I still sort headstamps. The powder drop is normaly within 0.6g between brass changes. A short ladder test and right back to normal.

My preferred 223 brass is left all over every range due to a perception and stupidity problem.

Volumetric water test of virgin brass doesn't replace testing resized brass from your dies.

Life is short.

"Volumetric water test of virgin brass doesn't replace testing resized brass from your dies."

- I don't think anyone suggested that though did they, just some general information about the volume of one brass compared to another???

 

[Haney]

My point is if you develop loads with virgin brass you will have to change it once you have fire formed all of it.

Buying new brass and running it to experation is one thing. You still end up two loads.

I consider virgin brass in an ar about as usefull as factory loads.

Many I have measured have 0.007 - 0.008 headspace for starters.

That brass has a lot if room to bounce around, same with buying thier unloaded brass.

My dies won't move it except for the Sinclair mandrell.

I like to use fire formed brass to eliminate wasted time and materials.

My dies work it all down to my preference, they are all the same.
The amount of variance has then been reduced but I still sort headstamps. The powder drop is normaly within 0.6g between brass changes. A short ladder test and right back to normal.

My preferred 223 brass is left all over every range due to a perception and stupidity problem.

Volumetric water test of virgin brass doesn't replace testing resized brass from your dies.

Life is short.

Do you shoot groups with this brass ? Once fired range brass is Not "Fire Formed " until it is fired in your chamber .

 

[OkieMike]

My point is if you develop loads with virgin brass you will have to change it once you have fire formed all of it.

Buying new brass and running it to experation is one thing. You still end up two loads.

I consider virgin brass in an ar about as usefull as factory loads.

Many I have measured have 0.007 - 0.008 headspace for starters.

That brass has a lot if room to bounce around, same with buying thier unloaded brass.

My dies won't move it except for the Sinclair mandrell.

I like to use fire formed brass to eliminate wasted time and materials.

My dies work it all down to my preference, they are all the same.
The amount of variance has then been reduced but I still sort headstamps. The powder drop is normaly within 0.6g between brass changes. A short ladder test and right back to normal.

My preferred 223 brass is left all over every range due to a perception and stupidity problem.

Volumetric water test of virgin brass doesn't replace testing resized brass from your dies.

Life is short.

.008" headspace is about right.

I just measured a loaded case... Federal white box of LC18 I still had laying around. With the Hornady comparator it measured 1.457" from base to datum line on the shoulder.

I also picked out a "random case" (another LC18) from some range brass that I bought from a member here... Fired out of who knows what weapon... Base to datum measured 1.465"

Then I measured base to datum on a piece of LC18 that I loaded to go shoot this weekend... 1.463" (I can get away with.002 bump in my gasser. Runs it like a sewing machine in fact)

So yeah, I'm with you on once fired vs virgin brass... I got fire formed brass that didn't cost me a primer, powder charge, and bullet.

Mike

 

[Haney]

Lack of experience is shining bright .

 

[supercorndogs]

Lack of experience is shining bright .

Are you here to show us the way, or throw barbs because you can't understand the discussion?

 

[diggler1833]

Just some observations from an idiot that may or may not pertain to this discussion:

I definitely have to mess with charge weights again when going from quality virgin to once fired brass...however, I've yet to ever need more than a 1% correction in charge weight - so I feel pretty confident doing load development with virgin brass. It takes ~20 rounds or less to get everything dialed back in.

Quality virgin brass is still more than adequate for shooting low ES and SDs. My last two boxes of 6.5x47 Lapua brass had an extreme spread of .002 in headspace when measuring from the base of the case to the datum line in the shoulder with my Hornady comparator. I don't have my spreadsheet in front of me, but I think I got close to the same (.002 - maybe .003) on the Starline brass testing I did in 6.5 Grendel and Creedmoor. *Obviously internal volume will be more of a factor in velocity*, but my last time out with my second 6.5x47, I had two SDs under 5 for five-shot groups with virgin brass.

I also picked up quite a bit of once fired LC 5.56 brass from various ranges. It worked extremely well in my bolt .223, but I'd still have to tweak the charge weight a tenth or so between firings numbers two (not formed to my chamber) and three (formed to my chamber) to maintain velocity. So in this regard I see range pick-up brass as no more useful than virgin brass on that first firing in my rifle...albeit a heck of a lot cheaper.

Don't get me wrong; I love me some free range brass (or did when I used to shoot at ranges). I just don't quite understand the nose in the air at testing and using good virgin brass.

 

[OkieMike]

Lack of experience is shining bright .

Ever offer anything constructive? Or do you just walk in, run your cock holster, shit a big pile, and leave?

Wouldn't matter if you did offer any real advice... The last person I would listen to is someone who talked about smoking dope at the range.

Mike

 

[Snuby642]

So in this regard I see range pick-up brass as no more useful than virgin brass on that first firing in my rifle...albeit a heck of a lot cheaper.

If you are full length sizing your die probably will not move virgin brass.

Your die probably will move first fired brass to your desired bump at the least. It will fit your chamber better unless it is a custom chamber.

If first fired lapua brass were laying at the range and I got it I would give it to someone that thought it made a difference in an ar since there would not be enough for me to bother with.

If people treated their range brass like it were lapua they would be supprised at the results.

But no, they take short cuts, are unhappy with those results and blame it on cheap components.

I think especially in an ar platform that the brass used is not the main culprit in sub expectation results.

Lapua gets a week at the spa and range brass gets the hose at best.

And no diggler, not trying to disrespect you.

 

[spife7980]

If you are full length sizing your die probably will not move virgin brass. You have a fucked up die or shell holder then

Your die probably will move first fired brass to your desired bump at the least. It will fit your chamber better unless it is a custom chamber. Unless the chamber it came out of was too fat to fit in a good chamber. Which might explain why the person who shot it left it.

If first fired lapua brass were laying at the range and I got it I would give it to someone that thought it made a difference in an ar since there would not be enough for me to bother with.

If people treated their range brass like it were lapua they would be supprised at the results. If by range brass you mean crap brass and expect poor results then sure

But no, they take short cuts, are unhappy with those results and blame it on cheap components. Or maybe the crap brass that gets left behind is crap and left behind for a reason

I think especially in an ar platform that the brass used is not the main culprit in sub expectation results. Lowering your expectations is the only way this makes any sense.

Lapua gets a week at the spa and range brass gets the hose at best.

And no diggler, not trying to disrespect you.

Maybe the fact that you cant tell a difference is more indicative of the ability than the brass.

 

[diggler1833]

So virgin brass just gets a pass over my Sinclair expander mandrel ONCE I've verified that my factory brass headspace isn't too excessive for my chamber. After that, it gets a light chamfering and deburring before getting stuffed with primer, powder, and bullet.

I've found in my measurement testing that OAL for most decent virgin factory cases are within. 004 - .005 for an ES, and SD is under .001...so I don't bother trimming unless I stumble across an anomaly.

I'm also an idiot, so I have written in each die box my headspace measurement (along with the comparator size I used). It makes a handy, quick reference guide...and I don't always have to go looking for my load book.

typically, virgin brass is going to be over .002 - .003 from your chamber's shoulder, so bumping it further (bolt gun) to try to uniform everything when I'm already getting good results isn't a route I've had much desire to explore. For an AR, I've always had decent luck at .005 bump...no solid reason to keep it at that, but I'm just content with my results. Fortunately FOR ME, my only two AR chambers that I've used virgin brass in have had more than .005 for the brass I used.

There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat here, and there are also certain obvious ways to do it wrong.

At this point in my personal reloading journey, I've come across a method that absolutely gives me the results I want and are consistent. It doesn't have to be your method, and I won't accuse anyone of being an idiot if they choose to do it differently...there's always a good chance they could be doing it better than me anyway.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Little late here but I just got about 1000 pcs of LC .223 brass. I’m treating it like lapua, giving it a full makeover and plan on practicing PRS with it. Might even work up a lesser charge to save barrel life, probably using it inside 450 yards on skills stage. Any advice is appreciated

 

[Snuby642]

I’m treating it like lapua,

That is the big point right there.

If you prep your sorted brass like it was valuable it will let you know how good your rifle and it's driver are.

If you are having problems on target careful reloading practices are one thing you can controll.

I would not begin to argue Lapua brass being the gold standard.
But if you can't get sub moa results with quality prepped first fired range brass you are probably wasting your money on new brass .

 

[simonp]

I don’t use Lapua in my gas guns - just not wealthy enough to drop that much coin and not sure it’s necessary. I’ve been running primarily LC brass and some testing of Starline brass. If I spend the time on the LC - sort, anneal, neck turn, proper sizing etc I can get sub moa and with the right load sub 1/2 moa.

I’ve been using the LC 223 headstamp brass the last few months as I had so much of it and I’ve been pleased. I just started to process a bag of LC 21 and am curious to see if there will be any difference

 

[Rogerthatout]

Brian Litz swears that Annealing saves brass life but does little to nothing to help numbers or groups…. He tested this

 

[simonp]

Brian Litz swears that Annealing saves brass life but does little to nothing to help numbers or groups…. He tested this

I don’t have enough data to say one way or another.

I anneal after every firing to prolong brass life and reduce springback - if it adds to accuracy too then that’s gravy

 

[Mitchell3006]

Just some observations from an idiot that may or may not pertain to this discussion:

I definitely have to mess with charge weights again when going from quality virgin to once fired brass...however, I've yet to ever need more than a 1% correction in charge weight - so I feel pretty confident doing load development with virgin brass. It takes ~20 rounds or less to get everything dialed back in.

Quality virgin brass is still more than adequate for shooting low ES and SDs. My last two boxes of 6.5x47 Lapua brass had an extreme spread of .002 in headspace when measuring from the base of the case to the datum line in the shoulder with my Hornady comparator. I don't have my spreadsheet in front of me, but I think I got close to the same (.002 - maybe .003) on the Starline brass testing I did in 6.5 Grendel and Creedmoor. *Obviously internal volume will be more of a factor in velocity*, but my last time out with my second 6.5x47, I had two SDs under 5 for five-shot groups with virgin brass.
View attachment 8082435




I also picked up quite a bit of once fired LC 5.56 brass from various ranges. It worked extremely well in my bolt .223, but I'd still have to tweak the charge weight a tenth or so between firings numbers two (not formed to my chamber) and three (formed to my chamber) to maintain velocity. So in this regard I see range pick-up brass as no more useful than virgin brass on that first firing in my rifle...albeit a heck of a lot cheaper.

Don't get me wrong; I love me some free range brass (or did when I used to shoot at ranges). I just don't quite understand the nose in the air at testing and using good virgin brass.

Do you excess LC 5.56?

 

[diggler1833]

Do you excess LC 5.56?

No Sir. I ran most of that stuff so hard that it only lasted me 4-5 firings.