Rifle Scopes Lapping Cheaper Scope Rings

[UserNameInvalid]

So I've been doing a lot of reading and lurking and picking up a lot of useful info. So a big thanks to everybody on the forum. But along with reading I've been doing some thinking, and couldn't find any posts on this topic.

I've been reading about scope lapping and think it seems a good idea, and good insurance to keep expensive optics safe from stress. If I understand correctly, lapping removes imperfections in the rings, giving a larger contact surface and assuring that the rings are perfectly in line with each other. Thus giving a "perfect" fit to the scope and relieving the scope of stress. So assuming both sets of rings were lapped, what would be the difference in a pair of Badger Ordnance/ NF rings and a much much cheaper set if both have been lapped to a "perfect" or as close as possible fit. ( Assuming neither set of rings has any major defect or misalignment to begin with)?

And as far as " much much cheaper" I'm talking the $20 dollar ones big box stores use. I plan on going back and making sure all the rifles I have are in tip top shape before starting any new builds. Mainly the ones purchased before doing my research.

I don't have any problem with buying quality once and not having to worry, but is there really any significant difference? Especially if the scope rings are properly lapped. I'm just not seeing the $300 dollar price tag if the end product/results could be had for a lot less. Aren't you just paying a lot for Extremely tight tolerances that can be beat by lapping anyway?

 

[0311@LAR]

Buy some Seekins, throw your lapping bar away, mount your scope. Spend all the time you would be lapping rings on drinking beer instead.

 

[UserNameInvalid]

I'm not worried about time, working on my guns is by far my favorite past time. I just know i have 7 rifles ranging from .22's with cheaper scopes up to a savage 12f/tr with a $1400 leupold that I want to ensure isn't under stress. The lapping bar would be significantly cheaper if the end result is going to be the same as spending a chunk of change on all new rings.

Plus I'm already sold that lapping is a good thing. While not always necessary, I can't find a single con to lapping all of my scope rings as longs as its done correctly.

 

[0311@LAR]

If you buy a quality rail, and quality rings, lapping should never be necessary. You said it yourself, you have a $1400 optic, why not spend $140 on a top notch set of rings? Look at some of the threads on here, guys are running $4000 optics in Seekins, Badgers, Sphur, ect..... and aren't lapping them, because it isn't necessary.

 

[UserNameInvalid]

A lapping bar is a lot cheaper than 7 sets of decent rings. I haven't heard of a single con for lapping. And I'm just wondering how much different a set of lapped cheap rings vs expensive rings really are. What are the cheaper rings missing? Are there any other real qualities of expensive rings that lapping doesn't make up for? Am I gaining anything other than a brand name and the right to say my rings cost $150 and lapping is not "necessary".

 

[RHunter]

Sounds like you really want to lap a set of rings, if that is what you want to do, go for it.

Lapping was almost a necessity when rings were basically hand machined, now with precision CNC machining, you don't need to worry about it unless your base has issues.

 

[MJY65]

I've never owned a lapping bar because I think the concept is a little goofy. If you think about a misaligned ring, perhaps off by a few degrees, you have two "corners" of the ring touching and two not. The contact points may create stress in the tube if overtightened. Out comes the lapping bar. You knock down the high spots where it was touching and get rid of the stress. Unfortunately, you haven't added anything to the open corners. All you have done is enlarge the ring. Next, the scope slips under recoil and you wonder why.

As others have said, the best plan is good rings.

 

[phlegm]

The only time you would lap a set of quality mounting hardware is if the screw holes in your receiver are misaligned and twisting the scope base. I'd say most shooters with high standards would prefer to have a gunsmith correct this by enlarging and re-aligning the holes, rather than trying to lap the rings.

 

[terrible tim]

Personally, I would just make sure the rings are properly aligned prior to dropping in the scope. For a 1" scope, buy a 1" wood dowel & spray it with white paint or clear lacquer. Paint the inner surface of the lower ring bases with lipstick and gently drop in the dowel. Press on the dowel & remove carefully. Now look at the bottom of the dowel. Are the contact spots uniform? If not, adjust the base where it mounts to improve alignment. You should be able to get 99% of problems worked out with this method. For 30mm scopes, use a 30mm dowel (if you can find one). I use one piice bases for my 30mm stuff, so it isn't an issue for me.

Be careful of lapping, if you remove too much metal, you can create a sloppy fit and negate all of the benefits. I think people can become a bit too anal with all of this stuff.

 

[RHunter]

Lipstick?

Yeah, I'll ask the queen if I can borrow that out of her cammo kit.

Where did you come up with that stupid idea? You do realize that if rings are out of alignment they are out maybe a few thousandths.

Where the hell are you going to buy a 30 or a 34 MM precision machined dowel?

Where is that stupidest thing you have ever been told thread? This deserves a mention.

 

[UserNameInvalid]

I guess what I'm searching for is any reason to buy the expensive rings if lapped cheap rings will be perfectly aligned too???

The only thing I can think of is aluminum hardness.But couldn't this be over come by using cheap steel rings instead??
And the softer al. What is it really missing in terms of actual real world performance?

Can anybody think of any reasons other than " thats what everyone else does" ??

 

[brwn bggr]

I have used Badger,MK4's, and NF's...I lap every set of rings I mount...
It does not take that much time...I grind my own bars,to be -.003" from nominal...I'll listen to everyone tell me how perfect this set of rings is and that set...and I'm really glad they are happy..!tolerances stack...period! Your perfect rings mounted to a even slightly off base will result in rings no longer in line...whether the base is off in pitch,or yaw,it will be exaggerated by the time it gets to the center of the rings...some rings that I've hit with the bar,clean up almost immediately,others require more time to finish up...as to why buy quality rings,base over dime store variants...because I can't do anything about the mating interface between ring/base...I believe quality parts keep this true and constant without shifted or having a high spot disappear after a few recoil cycles and have the ring move...

 

[RHunter]

What is it really missing in terms of actual real world performance?

You cant answer that question because each mount will be different.

It depends on the degree of misalignment. It depends on the spread. It depends if they are a unimount or separate rings.

The scope quality also matters, you cant "true" a shit scope. Shit is shit.

Its pretty obvious if you are going to have issues when you drop a scope on mounted ring bases by simply turning the scope, you could even use feeler gauges if you have some thin enough to check the fit.

I don't lap rings but I don't buy crap equipment either. All my precision rigs are on chassis, not small thin bases mounted to the action in a fiberglass stock. These CNC machined rails on chassis run pretty true. Put a good set of rings on them and I have never encountered an issue with rings that needed to be lapped. When I miss a target, it is not because I did not lap my rings, it was because I screwed up with the shot or screwed up loading the ammo.

The biggest issue you will find with cheap rings is the center of the ring is not centered on the bore when mounted. They will be shifted either left or right. Lapping will not fix that. Better quality rings tend to be true to the mount center.

 

[terrible tim]

Dude, lighten up! Anyone can whittle up a perfect 30mm dowel in a few minutes. What do you use for stock inletting other than lamp black?

 

[RHunter]

whittle up a perfect 30mm dowel in a few minutes

Right, let me get my buck knife out and get right on that.

Well at least we know where your lipstick comes from...

 

[brwn bggr]

You cant answer that question because each mount will be different.

It depends on the degree of misalignment. It depends on the spread. It depends if they are a unimount or separate rings.

The scope quality also matters, you cant "true" a shit scope. Shit is shit.

Its pretty obvious if you are going to have issues when you drop a scope on mounted ring bases by simply turning the scope, you could even use feeler gauges if you have some thin enough to check the fit.

I don't lap rings but I don't buy crap equipment either. All my precision rigs are on chassis, not small thin bases mounted to the action in a fiberglass stock. These CNC machined rails on chassis run pretty true. Put a good set of rings on them and I have never encountered an issue with rings that needed to be lapped. When I miss a target, it is not because I did not lap my rings, it was because I screwed up with the shot or screwed up loading the ammo.

The biggest issue you will find with cheap rings is the center of the ring is not centered on the bore when mounted. They will be shifted either left or . Lapping will not fix that. Better quality rings tend to be true to the mount center.

Simply not true sir...
I have taken rings that were out quite a bit in "X"(left/right)
And crushed the wing on the "+" side,followed by lapping,and obtained 100% contact on the lower ring half...
Too much effort,if you ask me,but that is part and parcel as to why you and I both buy higher end components...

 

[RHunter]

And crushed the wing on the "+" side,followed by lapping,and obtained 100% contact on the lower ring half..

Fair enough but I have seen some so off center nothing would fix them.

 

[brwn bggr]

Fair enough but I have seen some so off center noting would fix them.

Touche' ...me as well...

 

[MJY65]

I guess what I'm searching for is any reason to buy the expensive rings if lapped cheap rings will be perfectly aligned too???

Because unless you have access to some serious machinist tools and skills to match, you're not going to get them perfectly aligned. You are much more likely to just egg out the hole even worse.

 

[brwn bggr]

Because unless you have access to some serious machinist tools and skills to match, you're not going to get them perfectly aligned. You are much more likely to just egg out the hole even worse.

So true...ring lapping is not simply throwing some abrasive slurry on a wooden dowel ( sorry,couldn't resist ) and pushing it back and forth for a while...if your rings require more than a light rub,and you have to remove a fair amount of metal...the abrasive compound will build up first on the outer edges...if not corrected,this will lead to as mentioned,bell mouthing and flairing...after a while,you'll do a contact rub and see you only have 60% in the middle of the ring,so you lap some more only to find out on your next check that now you only have 40% contact...because just rubbing back and forth cuts on an arched ramp,on the outsiders where the slurry is built up...so as mentioned,good tools and some experience...again,another reason to begin with quality parts...unless you have someone handy to walk you though it,you might be better off with the cheap rings until you are happy with the results...

 

[g2gjoe]

Dude, lipstick? Wow, really? Wooden dowel? WTF?
That is so stupid it's annoying.

Op.
Listen, cheap rings are just that, cheap. I've had crossbolts break and snap at just 35 inch pounds of torque. Top halves that didn't match the bottom halves. Etc..
I use good rings because I use good optics. Good optics are not cheap. I'd rather not leave ring marks on them, and I like precision. And you can't find very decent rings for well under $100.

Now, my next statement probably goes against popular opinion.
You should always lap your rings.
I do. Why? Because the rings cost less than the scope. Doesn't matter if I use Leopold mk lV, nightforce , or any others. If they didn't need it, and they usually don't, I don't feel it was a waste of my time. Better safe than sorry. You can even use the lapping bar to mount your rings.

Of course if you're using a cheap piece of shit scope, then I guess it doesn't really matter. And you can use all the lipstick you want.

 

[g2gjoe]

Oop's, I meant to say, you can find very decent links for well under 100 bucks.

 

[UserNameInvalid]

Well thank you all for the input. Gonna end up with a lapping bar and high quality rings and bases at least for the more expensive scopes I have. My hopes of saving a couple bucks have been thwarted but at least I know everything will be set up properly.

Thanks everybody

 

[haunas]

My question is how precise can a cheap lapping bar be tolerance wise? Most of the ASTM certified stuff is big bucks and that is what I would want to be measuring against. Not a $40 steel dowel of unknown tolerance or manufacture. Just some thoughts but go for it.

 

[RHunter]

Dude, lipstick? Wow, really? Wooden dowel? WTF?
That is so stupid it's annoying.

That is so funny it's painful

 

[UserNameInvalid]

My question is how precise can a cheap lapping bar be tolerance wise? Most of the ASTM certified stuff is big bucks and that is what I would want to be measuring against. Not a $40 steel dowel of unknown tolerance or manufacture. Just some thoughts but go for it.

I'm going to get to kokopelli kit. seems like a very precise kit. Probably be a few weeks for me to actually get around to doing anything.(finals are a tad stressful) I'll try to remember to post results.

 

[MJY65]

I'm going to get to kokopelli kit. seems like a very precise kit.

I think the precision of the bar is only a small(but important) part of the equation. The second, and perhaps bigger, factor is how you apply the forces to the bar. It may be optimistic to think that very many of us could run the bar so perfectly as to get equal forces all the way around a cylindrical bar/ring set up. There will always be a tendency to pull or push the bar off axis. Unless a person is exceptionally skilled or exceptionally lucky, it probably won't happen. That's not to say that a lapping kit will ruin every ring it touches, but I doubt it really gets you to where you are hoping to be.

 

[UserNameInvalid]

I think the precision of the bar is only a small(but important) part of the equation. The second, and perhaps bigger, factor is how you apply the forces to the bar. It may be optimistic to think that very many of us could run the bar so perfectly as to get equal forces all the way around a cylindrical bar/ring set up. There will always be a tendency to pull or push the bar off axis. Unless a person is exceptionally skilled or exceptionally lucky, it probably won't happen. That's not to say that a lapping kit will ruin every ring it touches, but I doubt it really gets you to where you are hoping to be.

Even if I get a some ovaling from lapping incorrectly, I figure 2 lined up ovals is better than two slightly out of line but still square mounts. As long as the lapping isn't bad enough to cause the scope to slip i figure the removal of stress is a lot more important.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

honestly, I'd rather buy a set of quality rings and not worry about it. since I've been working here I've never had to do any lapping. I just advocate getting quality mounts.
but to answer the question, another huge difference in cheaper scope rings vs expensive ones is the material. cheap scope mounts = cheap metal and cheap anodizing, or paint in some cases. you also run the risk of the ring being out of spec. in one way or another. over torque the screws and you've got yourself even more problems. better just but something good out the gate

 

[brwn bggr]

I would not discount anyone's knowledge or experience,but I am a bit surprised by the consensus here...it seems most do not lap...
Having said that,it is now fairly clear why I see so many scopes with clamp marks on them...as to the OP,take your time,use as little compound as possible and follow instructions...you'll be just fine...
Have a smilie face day...!

 

[Graham]

Lapping Cheaper Scope Rings

If you have to lap your rings, you're doing it wrong.

I have never lapped a set of quality rings. There is simply no need to do so unless your scope tube is out of spec, meaning unless it has too thick an outside diameter.

 

[brwn bggr]

If you have to lap your rings, you're doing it wrong.

I have never lapped a set of quality rings. There is simply no need to do so unless your scope tube is out of spec, meaning unless it has too thick an outside diameter.

Being in the same geography,+/-,I look forward to disagreeing with you over a cup of coffee one day...in the mean time,I expect to keep doing if the wrong way...grin!
...kirt...

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Never seen ring marks from quality rings unless the scope was moved in the rings and due to my addiction I have bought and sold alot of scopes. I have seen ring marks from low quality rings of which I dont use anymore. I use Nf on my high dollar scopes and have used warnes on all my lower end and rimfire scopes.

 

[my human host]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that lapping rings makes them over sized and oblong.

Rings halves are never a true half diameter of the scope tube. There's room to go a little bit deeper before the two halves of the rings touch. In effect, your seating the scope deeper into the ring halves.

Personally I'm not going to assume any set of rings is perfectly aligned and free of sharp edges, no matter whose name is on the box they came in. To each their own.

 

[jtv3062]

I would not discount anyone's knowledge or experience,but I am a bit surprised by the consensus here...it seems most do not lap...
Having said that,it is now fairly clear why I see so many scopes with clamp marks on them...as to the OP,take your time,use as little compound as possible and follow instructions...you'll be just fine...
Have a smilie face day...!

If your scope base not flat and twisted because of the receiver and you install rings and lap them. What happens when you remove the rings and flop them front to back back to front or switch them onto another rifle? Marks on your scope from your lapped rings would be my guess.

You won't see marks on anybody's scopes who knows how to properly beds the base, and use quality components. I know I have no use for lapping bars.

 

[RHunter]

I've been shooting a lot of years, never lapped a set of rings and I can probably out-shoot most people in here. I am of the opinion you need to lap rings when a problem exists, not when one doesn't. I don't see lapping rings only for the sake of doing it just to cover all the bases as a worth-while endeavor.

If you had the absolute best rifle on the planet where everything was in perfect spec, .05% of shooters could actually shoot that rifle to a level close to its potential.

Lapping rings without reason is like having a false sense of security. You think you will be a better shooter because you did it. You think you are bringing your equipment up to your shooting ability when in fact its your ability that has a problem.

When I look at some of the comments in here, its almost like you have this lapping crowd that thinks everyone that does not don't lap their rings is beneath them or is not a *real* shooter...

Then I look at the crowd that does not see the need and they seem to come from the corner of common sense.

This discussion reminds me of "this" shooter, we all know him, the guy that has and does the following:

Weight sorts his brass
Neck turns his brass
Deburrs the primer pockets
Opens up the flash holes
Uses vhitavuori powder exclusively
Uses bench rest primers
Uses bullets no one else ever heard of
Weight sorts his bullets
Trims the meplats
Uses a micrometer bullet seating die
Measures the length to ogive 4 digits past the decimal point
Thinks taper crimping is only done on factory ammo
Shoots his rifle from a gun vice on a bench
Would not consider EVER using a Remington action
Replaces his barrel after 800 rounds
Wears yellow tinted shooting glasses
Lapps his scope rings
Cleans the bore after every 10 shots
Uses a Schmidt Bender 5x25 and never shoots past 100 yards
Thinks wood stocks hinder accuracy

And still looks for a problem with his equipment or ammo or weather as the reason he cant shoot rather than accepting the fact he just sucks at the sport. Some people spend more time fucking with their equipment than shooting it and that is why they cant shoot for shit.

 

[0311@LAR]

"Some people spend more time fucking with their equipment than shooting it and that is why they cant shoot for shit. "



Agreed, I would worry about ring marks on my scope, but I have a match this weekend.

 

[MJY65]

Rings halves are never a true half diameter of the scope tube. There's room to go a little bit deeper before the two halves of the rings touch. In effect, your seating the scope deeper into the ring halves.

Yes, and that is by design. As soon as the two halves touch, you are no longer applying the correct clamping force the scope itself.

I think that a lot of scopes are damaged by guys putting too much torque on the ring screws in order to make the rings touch on the sides. That pulls the ring out of round and puts the pressure in the wrong spots. Once I bought a good quality inch lb torque driver, I realized how little 20-25 inch lbs really is. It's nowhere close to "tight as you can get it".

 

[haunas]

Yes, and that is by design. As soon as the two halves touch, you are no longer applying the correct clamping force the scope itself.

I think that a lot of scopes are damaged by guys putting too much torque on the ring screws in order to make the rings touch on the sides. That pulls the ring out of round and puts the pressure in the wrong spots. Once I bought a good quality inch lb torque driver, I realized how little 20-25 inch lbs really is. It's nowhere close to "tight as you can get it".

What he said. Install it properly.

 

[my human host]

Laffin. Guys, it takes like 5 or 10 minutes to lap a "bad" set of rings and even less to get a verification lap (I do the same thing with locking lugs on a trued action) on a good set. It's not that big of a deal. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it.

Only in the scope forum.

 

[HOGWILD]

I would think if you were installing a scope in a poorly made set of rings that were not machined properly your lapping alignment bars will tell you how bad the machining was! Like most everyone has mentioned most of the higher quality made manufacturers do not need lapping! I have also seen a lot of cheaper rings that needed lapping that I have done and I never go to 100% removal in fear of damaging them where they will not grip the tube! Doing this to say a set of NEAR ring's would be stupid but ya never know until ya align the alignment bars ? Trying to lap a set of expensive rings would for sure void any warranty I would bet!
Here is a question no body has mentioned in a scope install that I am curious about and it's the bedding of your bases ? Several quality base manufacturers mention doing this and have heard that a few guys do this step? I have never done this and curious how many do?

 

[brwn bggr]

I would think if you were installing a scope in a poorly made set of rings that were not machined properly your lapping alignment bars will tell you how bad the machining was! Like most everyone has mentioned most of the higher quality made manufacturers do not need lapping! I have also seen a lot of cheaper rings that needed lapping that I have done and I never go to 100% removal in fear of damaging them where they will not grip the tube! Doing this to say a set of NEAR ring's would be stupid but ya never know until ya align the alignment bars ? Trying to lap a set of expensive rings would for sure void any warranty I would bet!
Here is a question no body has mentioned in a scope install that I am curious about and it's the bedding of your bases ? Several quality base manufacturers mention doing this and have heard that a few guys do this step? I have never done this and curious how many do?

Ya,I'll bite,at the risk of taking fire...
If the base is not integrated with reciever by the manufacturer,then absolutely...
It would be far worse to "not" bed a quality base to a factory receiver,than it would be to "not" lap a quality set of rings on a quality,properly bedded base...