ON February 18, 2011, Victor posted this in another topic here.
"Gents, may I be so bold if you have not heard for the first time we have civilian LEGAL IR lasers available. Laser Devices has been pestered for YEARS to get a Class 1 system out there. At this years Shot Show, they listened to a few. Presently, they have released the DBAL-I2, OTAL and ITAL with a eye safe IR laser for ranges 75-100 yards. You can see a review and the laser shown in different lighting environments here. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-i2-class-1-ir-laser/
So everyone knows, these units are the SAME as the restricted counterpart DBAL/OTAL/ITAL units, nothing has changed with the body housings of the units, except for the IR laser output power. The great thing is, if they ever go down, they are covered with a FULL manufactures warranty. Nothing scary about owning these units or where they might have come from. If something every happens with them, they will NOT become an Airsoft look cool tool.
LDI IS trying to keep up with our demand. We're getting large batches in every other week and sell out quickly.
We are also working with them to get a IR Laser Handgun platform out to the masses as well. Thanks guys.
Vic"
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Whoever did this for civilian legal knew what they were doing...</span>
Well, I bought one (green laser version). When it got here, I took it out with the PVS-14 that I also got from Victor. I noted that all the city areas we normally run stuff in were pretty much lit up from street lights and all the normal white noise. Victor advertises this item working well in the 75-100 yard range. It does..... And some more under these conditions. There were SOME lighting conditions where I had to leave the 14's cap on and use it in Day mode.. Went in a dark BIG assed warehouse. Again, 25-75 yards, NO problems.
I took it to the Hardrock 1000 yard range, wide, flat, and open, in a full moon. I could SEE the beam at 500 yards, but it was so wide that it was not really a pointer there, but more illuminator. <span style="text-decoration: underline">This is a big dot out there and not usable for aiming at all.</span>
Then, I took it to my other range, 600 yards, steel at every 50 yards, and this is not a flat, wide, and open range. There are shadowed areas. Full moon. Same result as above.
Then I drove it through the woods in the Rhino, woods, food plots from 50 yards to 200 yards long, with all conditions light wise under the full moon. I saw the dot every where I point it under these conditions.
The green laser is brighter, just like Vic said. Didn't flare out/bloom on the 14 or the 22. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Didn't flare or bloom on natural items in the food plots, but it did on steel.</span>
At this point, I mounted it on a 16" Rock River AR-15 with an Aimpoint M3/2 moa dot. Zeroed it at 100 yards. I was like, ok, this is easy, too easy.
200 yard hits on a 24" wide plate all night long. Good hits at that. I went to 300 yards and got hits on the plate, but the beam is as wide as the plate at 300. Requires more shooter discretion on aiming for the best hits.
I was impressed enough to buy another unit, IR laser only, for the 308 hog gun (16" AR-10) and I am waiting for it to arrive like tomorrow.
What else did I find? 100 yard zero with either 223 or 308, 200 yard hits are easy in the full to 3/4 moon we shot in. The drop is not enough to worry about minute of coyote or MOHog.
At 300, the 14" or so drop AND beam width is enough to matter so <span style="text-decoration: underline">this is NOT a long range device.</span> Thats what the PVS 22 and 3.5-10 scope is for.
What I did notice pretty easy was when the assistant on the PVS-22 was heads up and not HUA, whatever I looked at out to 500 yards with the unit, HE could hit...
As the moon-light goes down we continue the experiment. Walk out back door, go to bench, look at 200, fire three rounds, see what happens. I'll report back when I can't hit the 200 yard target. Vic, copy paste this anywhere you want to.
JW
Edited 03/23/2011: Further information:
Got new ITAL, put on 16" 308 AR-10. ITAL or DBAL using PVS-14.
No moon due to heavy eastern cloud cover, full starlight in the west to be decent light with the PVS 14, some smoke from controlled burning. There was enough light that I could see everything clear in the 14 when observing the range from the bench.
No problems seeing the dot or laser in the 14. But there were problems. Walking the range with the PVS-14, I could see the targets from 25 to 200 through the 14 very clear until I put the dot on it at 200 which I think is due to the dot's size (more below). I could still see and get hits at 100 and in on the silhouette, about 2 minute of hog at 100 and shrinking as I got closer.
The problem: While I can easily see the dot, there was not enough light to pick up the 200 yard target with the dot on it, the dot brightness kills/masks/covers the target in this lowered light situation. <span style="text-decoration: underline">This was reiterated again on the night of the 24th. </span>
Should add to you that I had no problems in this light with the PVS 22 and scope seeing the target and getting hits. Tonight, with the 14 and ITAL or DBAL, I need a IR illuminator on the rifle. <span style="text-decoration: underline">I illuminated the target at 200 on the 24th and it worked.</span>
And, small aside point, it is way more difficult getting hits with the 308 due to weight and recoil than it is with the 223.
24th Continued: The above underlined points are from the night of the 24th.
I tried both laser and IR from 7 yards to 200 yards. I confirmed again that the dot size is minute of hog or coyote. This is NOT a precision aiming device. I could keep the hits inside 3-3.5 MOA 100 and in when I had the PVS 14 weapon mounted. It got worse when I went helmet mounted because its hard to implement the fundamentals of marksmanship heads up on a bouncing dot.
At 200 yards, weapons mount on the PVS14, the hits went to 5-6 MOA, until I illuminated the target. They shrunk a little there. Helmet mounted was not worth discussing, <span style="text-decoration: underline">I will not shoot at any animal helmet mounted past 100 yards.</span>
Shot from a bench and bag, this unit will fool you into thinking you are better with it than you are. Off the bags and PVS14 weapons mounted, no illuminator, you will be MOHog/Coyote if you can shoot worth a shit.
Helmet mount AND off the bags, I was not worth a shit past 50 yards because of my lack of practice shooting this way. I plain sucked at this. This in no way takes away from the sights' ability.
It will work as advertised from 25 to 75 yards and this is about where most people will do the best due to the size of the dot and how much of the target it covers.
It will work past that, and is working past that for me to 200 yards in full moon to 3/4 moon. Anything less than 3/4 moon requires help from an illuminator at 200. And a really good level of skill at that distance. ITS NOT FOR EVERYBODY PAST 100 YARDS.
I'd buy another one when a good tax refund check comes in.
Thats all for now, I will report back when I get the crop damage permit and we get some more shooting time on live targets.
"Gents, may I be so bold if you have not heard for the first time we have civilian LEGAL IR lasers available. Laser Devices has been pestered for YEARS to get a Class 1 system out there. At this years Shot Show, they listened to a few. Presently, they have released the DBAL-I2, OTAL and ITAL with a eye safe IR laser for ranges 75-100 yards. You can see a review and the laser shown in different lighting environments here. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-i2-class-1-ir-laser/
So everyone knows, these units are the SAME as the restricted counterpart DBAL/OTAL/ITAL units, nothing has changed with the body housings of the units, except for the IR laser output power. The great thing is, if they ever go down, they are covered with a FULL manufactures warranty. Nothing scary about owning these units or where they might have come from. If something every happens with them, they will NOT become an Airsoft look cool tool.
LDI IS trying to keep up with our demand. We're getting large batches in every other week and sell out quickly.
We are also working with them to get a IR Laser Handgun platform out to the masses as well. Thanks guys.
Vic"
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Whoever did this for civilian legal knew what they were doing...</span>
Well, I bought one (green laser version). When it got here, I took it out with the PVS-14 that I also got from Victor. I noted that all the city areas we normally run stuff in were pretty much lit up from street lights and all the normal white noise. Victor advertises this item working well in the 75-100 yard range. It does..... And some more under these conditions. There were SOME lighting conditions where I had to leave the 14's cap on and use it in Day mode.. Went in a dark BIG assed warehouse. Again, 25-75 yards, NO problems.
I took it to the Hardrock 1000 yard range, wide, flat, and open, in a full moon. I could SEE the beam at 500 yards, but it was so wide that it was not really a pointer there, but more illuminator. <span style="text-decoration: underline">This is a big dot out there and not usable for aiming at all.</span>
Then, I took it to my other range, 600 yards, steel at every 50 yards, and this is not a flat, wide, and open range. There are shadowed areas. Full moon. Same result as above.
Then I drove it through the woods in the Rhino, woods, food plots from 50 yards to 200 yards long, with all conditions light wise under the full moon. I saw the dot every where I point it under these conditions.
The green laser is brighter, just like Vic said. Didn't flare out/bloom on the 14 or the 22. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Didn't flare or bloom on natural items in the food plots, but it did on steel.</span>
At this point, I mounted it on a 16" Rock River AR-15 with an Aimpoint M3/2 moa dot. Zeroed it at 100 yards. I was like, ok, this is easy, too easy.
200 yard hits on a 24" wide plate all night long. Good hits at that. I went to 300 yards and got hits on the plate, but the beam is as wide as the plate at 300. Requires more shooter discretion on aiming for the best hits.
I was impressed enough to buy another unit, IR laser only, for the 308 hog gun (16" AR-10) and I am waiting for it to arrive like tomorrow.
What else did I find? 100 yard zero with either 223 or 308, 200 yard hits are easy in the full to 3/4 moon we shot in. The drop is not enough to worry about minute of coyote or MOHog.
At 300, the 14" or so drop AND beam width is enough to matter so <span style="text-decoration: underline">this is NOT a long range device.</span> Thats what the PVS 22 and 3.5-10 scope is for.
What I did notice pretty easy was when the assistant on the PVS-22 was heads up and not HUA, whatever I looked at out to 500 yards with the unit, HE could hit...
As the moon-light goes down we continue the experiment. Walk out back door, go to bench, look at 200, fire three rounds, see what happens. I'll report back when I can't hit the 200 yard target. Vic, copy paste this anywhere you want to.
JW
Edited 03/23/2011: Further information:
Got new ITAL, put on 16" 308 AR-10. ITAL or DBAL using PVS-14.
No moon due to heavy eastern cloud cover, full starlight in the west to be decent light with the PVS 14, some smoke from controlled burning. There was enough light that I could see everything clear in the 14 when observing the range from the bench.
No problems seeing the dot or laser in the 14. But there were problems. Walking the range with the PVS-14, I could see the targets from 25 to 200 through the 14 very clear until I put the dot on it at 200 which I think is due to the dot's size (more below). I could still see and get hits at 100 and in on the silhouette, about 2 minute of hog at 100 and shrinking as I got closer.
The problem: While I can easily see the dot, there was not enough light to pick up the 200 yard target with the dot on it, the dot brightness kills/masks/covers the target in this lowered light situation. <span style="text-decoration: underline">This was reiterated again on the night of the 24th. </span>
Should add to you that I had no problems in this light with the PVS 22 and scope seeing the target and getting hits. Tonight, with the 14 and ITAL or DBAL, I need a IR illuminator on the rifle. <span style="text-decoration: underline">I illuminated the target at 200 on the 24th and it worked.</span>
And, small aside point, it is way more difficult getting hits with the 308 due to weight and recoil than it is with the 223.
24th Continued: The above underlined points are from the night of the 24th.
I tried both laser and IR from 7 yards to 200 yards. I confirmed again that the dot size is minute of hog or coyote. This is NOT a precision aiming device. I could keep the hits inside 3-3.5 MOA 100 and in when I had the PVS 14 weapon mounted. It got worse when I went helmet mounted because its hard to implement the fundamentals of marksmanship heads up on a bouncing dot.
At 200 yards, weapons mount on the PVS14, the hits went to 5-6 MOA, until I illuminated the target. They shrunk a little there. Helmet mounted was not worth discussing, <span style="text-decoration: underline">I will not shoot at any animal helmet mounted past 100 yards.</span>
Shot from a bench and bag, this unit will fool you into thinking you are better with it than you are. Off the bags and PVS14 weapons mounted, no illuminator, you will be MOHog/Coyote if you can shoot worth a shit.
Helmet mount AND off the bags, I was not worth a shit past 50 yards because of my lack of practice shooting this way. I plain sucked at this. This in no way takes away from the sights' ability.
It will work as advertised from 25 to 75 yards and this is about where most people will do the best due to the size of the dot and how much of the target it covers.
It will work past that, and is working past that for me to 200 yards in full moon to 3/4 moon. Anything less than 3/4 moon requires help from an illuminator at 200. And a really good level of skill at that distance. ITS NOT FOR EVERYBODY PAST 100 YARDS.
I'd buy another one when a good tax refund check comes in.
Thats all for now, I will report back when I get the crop damage permit and we get some more shooting time on live targets.
