Last round jamming on 1903-A3

[Anvil_X]

So I've had the rifle for about two months now, first few times I brought her to the range the rifle performed flawlessly. I then, out of curiosity, disassembled the rifle (not anything over 10 level, just dropped the floorplate and removed the action from the stock). Ever since, the rifle has been having trouble feeding the last round in the magazine.
Now with the 03-a3, the magazine spring and the follower are just loose inside the magazine well, which has a stamped channel in which the bottom of the spring rests.

So initially, I figured that the spring was not resting in the channel. after multiple repositionings, the problem still isn't solved.

here's whats going on mechanically to cause the jam-
as the rifle is emptied, the magazine follower ascends. once it reaches the last bullet, the diagonal pressure being applied by the one remaining round(sitting on the right side of the follower) is pushing the follower to the left. this is fine when it is feeding the other four rounds, but unfortunately as the follower goes to feed the last round, the left side of the follower hangs up on the bottom of the action, pinning the last round in place.

my range fix-it has been to just open the action after the fourth round, and depress the last round with my thumb, allowing the follower to slide back into proper position.

I've been thinking of redneck ways of solving the problem, but this is a classic rifle, and I'm not in the mood to have my stupidity ruin it.
And so I seek your wisdom.
Thanks ahead of time for your input

 

[BasraBoy]

You know the old saying about curiosity killing the cat?

And hey...we're guys....we like taking stuff apart! But I know I've regretted doing so many times...even as I've been doing it

Is the spring over compressed or out of alignment to the vertical?

Forget the "redneck" solutions.

Take it to a Springfield savvy smith....it doesn't sound like an expensive fix.

 

[Joop]

Just brainstorming here. Are you sure you didn't put it back in backwards (if that's possible. I've never tried it)? The guide on the follower should be to the left side, pushing the last round to the right. I can see how, if the guide were backwards and to the right, it could interfere with the extractor. This could also throw off the way the spring operates. Just a thought that may be worth checking into.

ETA: After rereading your post, I may be wrong, as it sounds like you have it in right (still on my first cup of coffee. Give me a break!).

 

[BasraBoy]

Joop...I think it'd pretty hard to get it round the wrong way. All the pics I have of the various followers show them being narrow at the front end and wider at the rear. Not sure it'd even be possible to fit it the wrong way round?

 

[Joop]

Joop...I think it'd pretty hard to get it round the wrong way. All the pics I have of the various followers show them being narrow at the front end and wider at the rear. Not sure it'd even be possible to fit it the wrong way round?

That's what I was wondering. It's been a while since I had mine completely apart, so I couldn't remember the details. Just trying to throw some ideas out there to save a guy the trip to the gunsmith!

 

[BasraBoy]

Sure, understood.

I've had a look at my 1903 (I think the only difference is that the 1903A3 had a stamped follower?)

Poyer mentions that what he describes as the "Type 4" (stamped not milled) is a unit comprising the top stamped part ((with the rib and fingers) being "spot welded to plates at the front and rear whish provided stiffening. The front plate also prevented the spring from sliding forward while a raised tab on the rear plate prevented it from sliding backwards."

What is not mentioned is any mechanism to prevent it moving left and right.

I've had a play with my 1903 just now and it has no sideways movment in the follower.

That's why I was wondering if the spring is out of vertical or misaligned in some way?

 

[Anvil_X]

yeah, everything but the action and barrel are stamped on this rifle... I've just doublechecked the spring alignment, and now it's catching on the rear lip of the mag well, so I'm pretty sure it's not in alignment.

I really am considering replacing the original bottom metal if it's going to be this much of a pain. correct me if I'm wrong, but the spring is attached to the bottom plate of a conventional 1903, yes?

 

[BasraBoy]

anvil, yes on the 1903 mags the spring is held in place at the front of the follower by sliding under two protrusions on the underside of the follower. Poyer calls them "fingers" in his book.

I'd imaging the spring needs to be attached on the A3 followerr too...otherwise it's just going to go where it likes?

Is yours attached?

This pic shows the standard 1903 follower on the right attached by the spring to the floorplate.

It also shows the 25 round mag too....

 

[Anvil_X]

ok scratch that, the spring and everything are in their proper place, I even tried canting it in several different ways... this thing just does not want to feed the last round.

but I did get a better look inside at the jam. so the follower is riding just fine, until you push the bolt forward, at which time the follower starts pushing upward while the round is being stripped off, and the left side of the follower then catches on the bottom of the receiver.

I just don't understand why it would even feed properly in the first place, judging from what I've seen of the inside- the mag well has no vertical taper and doesn't even attempt to match the thickness of the bottom of the action. this FTF was just waiting to happen.

 

[Anvil_X]

thats a firm negative, there is nothing connecting the rifle to the spring and follower... kinda wierd, eh?

 

[Anvil_X]

whoa Basra, I think you misinterpreted me, the follower and spring are attached to one another. however they have no connection to the rifle whatsoever, and therein lies the problem.

 

[BasraBoy]

Heres' some pics from the War Department Ordnance Maintenance Manual for the 1903,A1, A3 and A4 dated 20th January 1944:

Text on disassembly/assembly:

 

[Anvil_X]

the only thing keeping the spring and follower in are the screws holding the bottom metal to the action.

I was just as baffled when I took it apart in february.

 

[BasraBoy]

the only thing keeping the spring and follower in are the screws holding the bottom metal to the action.

I was just as baffled when I took it apart in february.

Yep, that's pretty much what seems to be the difference between the 1903/A1 follower and the A3/A4 followers.

If all seems as per the pics, the p[arts are the correct ones and you have asssembled it as per the manual, not sure what else to suggest, other than as first post to get it to a smith. Sorry!

 

[Anvil_X]

yeah dude, I figured it was coming to that. thanks for the troubleshooting help though.

I think I may just bring it to The CMP club here. I've been meaning to become a member anyways, so two birds with one stone. That, and the local gunsmiths are all the Tac'd out variety, making me hesitant to bring a classic rifle into their shop.

 

[BasraBoy]

No problem, you're welcome.

When it's fixed let us know what the problem was.

 

[pmclaine]

On the 03 the followers were milled and there was some handfitting to get the follower to work with an individual rifle. It wasn't much, most followers would work with other rifles otherwise GI's would have been screwed when they all put their rifle parts into cans of kerosene and just used whatever part they removed.

I had an 03 that was jamming on the last round same as yours. This is when I learned the factoid just mentioned about fitting the follower.

The fix I was taught (and found worked great) was to replace my milled follower in the 03 with a stamped follower from an 03A3.

You are experiencing what was referred to as a trapped follower. There should be a slight gap (+/- 1/8 of an inch) between the action and the magazine metal. On the 5th round the follower is getting trapped into that gap. The stamped follower has wider flanges on its sides and will not get trapped between the bottom metal and the receiver.

If your A3 already has a stamped follower it may be out of spec or the gap between your bottom metal and the action may be unusually wide. You can buy a follower for cheap money. Try another follower.

If you took the action out of the wood make sure that all the metal is in its proper spot. Make sure something has not failed to seat correctly and you have widened that gap between the magazine and action. Do not shave wood or anything to lessen the gap, it worked before it should work now. The action and magazine metal should not touch.

The follower does not just ride on top of the spring. The spring slides into the two guides under the follower and secures spring to follower. IIRC the A3 follower I used to replace my 03 milled follower did same.

 

[Anvil_X]

huh, thats exactly whats going on.

I'll take the action out of the stock and see how big that gap is.
all else fails, I've got a milled follower right now...

Outstanding post, thanks!

 

[pmclaine]

huh, thats exactly whats going on.

I'll take the action out of the stock and see how big that gap is.
all else fails, I've got a milled follower right now...

Outstanding post, thanks!

Just open the bolt and push down the follower you should be able to see the gap between the magazine and receiver. It should be minimal but it is just enough to cath the edge of the rising milled follower and throw the works off kilter.

If you are using a milled follower a stamped one will eliminate the problem entirely. In most cases milled means better when it come to 03's but in this case the stamped folower will cure the ills of having to fit a follower.

If you post a want to buy in the appropriate forum over at the CMP or Culvers Shooting Page you will get almost immediate responses to sell you a stamped 03A3 follower. I think I paid $7 for mine.

 

[Anvil_X]

okay, so I took the action out of the stock, tightened the screws down until there was about 1/8" gap, and the rifle performed flawlessly. I then tightened it down to no gap and it did the same. checked the inside of the stock, and sure enough the rear screw has a metal bushing to provide the proper distance, while the front does not. so I've got the front screw loosened to where it provides an even 1/8" gap along the whole mag well, and it's functioning about 75% of the time. I think I may have to get some Bondo and put a little bit more material into the stock around where the front action screw is sitting, because at the proper gap, the bottom metal has some wiggle room.

Thanks!

 

[pmclaine]

I think the tourque spec is about 35 inch pounds on the action screws (No more than 45 inch pounds supposedly but I have seen some spec up to 60). Snug them both up to about 35 even. Dont leave one loose as that will split your stock where it meets the back of the receiver. I think you are supposed to bring the front screw to tourque first than the back.

Dont worry too much about the gap between the bottom metal and the receiver being even. Snug it up and shoot it. If it doesnt group than start to think about chasing problems. I bet you wont have any.

The 03 should have about 10 pounds of up pressure on the bottom of the barrel at the front of the stock for accuracy. Guys create that pressure by shimming the rear of the reciever (easy) or inletting wood (harder and if you go too far you are screwed). Shimming will disqualify the rifle from CMP service match eligibility but it will make the rifle a shooter.

Ill come back with a link for some accuracy info.

 

[pmclaine]

Some info from the Culvers Shooting Page Forums sticky section

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showt...Rebuilding-of-the-M1903-Springfield-monograph

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?12669-Model-1903-Rifles-by-Dick-Culver

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?12800-Model-1903-FAQs


and this is a good thread from Surplus Rifles.com read into it a few posts and one guy does a great job describing how to set up an 03


http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=75849

 

[Anvil_X]

those are some pretty neat links, I'll have to keep an eye open for a replacement follower

 

[Anvil_X]

No problem, you're welcome.

When it's fixed let us know what the problem was.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, College things...
So I disassembled the rifle, and found that the bottom metal had bitten into the wood because I tightened the screws too tight. So, I took a bit of Bondo, and filled the bite marks in with a toothpick applicator. I let it sit for about three weeks

(Because my roommate is a POS that doesn't understand the phrase "you NEVER borrow another man's tools without his permission, and NEVER lend his tools out to a random friend without telling the tool owner for FOUR MONTHS"..... he's a former roommate now)

Once I got ahold of a dremel tool, I gently sanded the bondo patches back into tolerance, slapped her back together, and she runs like a dream. If anything, she feeds a little better.

I didn't alter anything else, just fixed the self-generated stupidity.

Thanks again for all the help, and wish me luck, l'Audace is coming out with me next week on a bear hunt!

 

[BasraBoy]

Good to hear it's fixed.

You know what to do now.........

 

[Mike Hull]

You might also want to get a set of longer receiver screws that will take care of ongoing design flaws. The Brownells/Forster P/N isGD2SXL. Less than 5 bucke the set.

 

[Anvil_X]

You might also want to get a set of longer receiver screws that will take care of ongoing design flaws. The Brownells/Forster P/N isGD2SXL. Less than 5 bucke the set.

yeah... after I unfudged the stock, I noticed there was still a lot of thread in the rear of the receiver that never gets touched by the stock screw. when I give her an overhaul at some point down the road, I might have to throw some of them in. As-is, it's still a phenominal rifle

Got the screw saved in my favorites, thanks mike.

And hopefully I'll have some pictures of the rifle in the field soon. This hunt next week may be put off because my buddy's possibly heading up to the slope for a summer job... if it gets nixed, I should have pics up from August's month-long Lemming/Caribou/Moose mayhem.

Oh, the benefits of spending a month in caribou country collecting Lemmings for research.