Rifle Scopes LE Optic Question

[PJ3]

I understand the majority of law enforcement sniper teams are running Leupold, Nightforce, US Optics, or something in between (or above). However, I was wondering if anyone is using Nikon, Sightron, Bushnell, or Burris. I run the Bushnell Elite 4200 series on my hunting rifles, which see a lot more “abuse” than duty optics, and never had a problem with them holding a zero or taking adjustments. The glass is multi-coated, sharp, and clean even in high magnification (highest I have is 32X).

Is anyone using anything different?

 

[Cascade Precision]

Re: LE Optic Question

Not to bust your balls, but why does it matter what LE uses? Just curious is all.

I think what is most important is what has a strong reliable reputation, and NF, USO, S&B all have superior quality over all optics, but that does not mean they are the best.

What kind of budget are you asking about? What purpose? What rifle, caliber, your experience? All questions that need some kind of an answer to before we could begin to offer suggestions.

FWIW, my Sightron 6.5-20x50 is repeatable, clear optics, reliable, and top notch customer support.

Some people use counter-snipers, some people use weaver, nitrex, burris, nikon, mueller....just curious why you selected LE as a base for the question. It really depends on each individual offices budget.

**EDIT: Perhaps I sound harsh. I do not mean to be, I just got off work, have to get about 5 hours sleep before returning for a double. Please don't take this as me being a dick, just curious about your perspective and point of view.

 

[MillSpec]

Re: LE Optic Question

i think you will find that dealers will sell LE any old crap they can and if its cheap enough and it "works" they will buy it.

only in an ideal world do police forces use equipment that is dependable since peoples lives are at risk.

The truth is most of them are stone broke and will pass off any old crap to their officers in this day and age.

Only the top tier special response units will get the decent or half decent gear. ie SWAT or in the UK, Armed Response unit.

A friend of mine sells to police forces the world over and its the same in every country.

Its the same with military gear also. its all about the $$$.

You will find that the above average hunter or target shooter will have better quality ammo, better quality rifle and more accurate, spend more on optics and have night vision that is equal or better than the average soldier.

If i was you i wouldnt use LE or Military as a yard stick, id use some of the guys on here as an example what to buy and use.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: LE Optic Question

To add to what the others have said, each agency procures its own equipment, often at the sole discretion of the Sheriff or Chief. I work with many retired LEOs and I've heard one story after another about how hard it was to convince the Sheriff not to get crap gear or how their Chief wouldn't budge and they ended up with Mini-14s for patrol rifles and standard iron sight M1As for long range. Others had H&K, GAP, Colt, S&B, SIMRAD, etc. Budget and common sense dictate.

Shoot with your Bushnell and be proud of it serving you so well. Don't worry what the other guys have because in the end it really is irrelevant.

 

[MillSpec]

Re: LE Optic Question

i have just got a 4-16x50 S&B for my .223 but i have been running a 6500 Elite for the last 18 months on every gun i have owned. in fact its been so versatile that i had it on a .22 Air rifle all the way up to my .223 now most top end brands cant claim that!

The Bushnell elite was a damn good scope for the money i paid and the Japanese glass in it is very good, the turrets were nice and it was compact and great mag range. Would it hold zero if i smashed it on a rock? maybe, maybe not but who treats their kit like that anyway??

I think when you look at the Bushnell elite range of scopes your into a price range which i think is the minimum you should spend on a nice rifle.

there are other people in the game now such as Vortex who are offering some serious bang for your $. I have yet to see a PST or another one of their products but im considering one for my 17hmr when they get the hunter version of their PST out.

 

[Guest]

Re: LE Optic Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To add to what the others have said, each agency procures its own equipment, often at the sole discretion of the Sheriff or Chief. I work with many retired LEOs and I've heard one story after another about how hard it was to convince the Sheriff not to get crap gear or how their Chief wouldn't budge and they ended up with Mini-14s for patrol rifles and standard iron sight M1As for long range. Others had H&K, GAP, Colt, S&B, SIMRAD, etc. Budget and common sense dictate.

Shoot with your Bushnell and be proud of it serving you so well. Don't worry what the other guys have because in the end it really is irrelevant. </div></div>

+1 If it works and you're happy, then stick with it till it needs to be changed/replaced/repaired.

PJ, let me tell you this right off, don't be a gear queer and compare what you have to what USMC, SEALs, Delta, LEO, SWAT, SAS, etc. are using. As stated there is more bullshit involved in gear selection and procurement than you would care to know about. And while certain groups do choose their own weapons/optics/gear, it does not mean that it is the only piece of kit that will do the job.

That said, be wary of what LEO are using. Aside from the budget issues and "convincing the old man of what's good" stated above, not every cop is a weapon expert. You'll find a lot of blow-hards that think they know EVERYTHING, but they don't. In fact some of the biggest firearm ignorami i've met have been LEO's (BlackUMP is the exception). In my years as an officer and instructor, I have met surprisingly few officers (and SWAT operators included) whose knowledge extends beyond the Gun Rag/Leupold/SA XD/Bushmaster horizon. I have seen optics and accessories on SWAT operator rifles that would make an airsofter cringe. Ye be warned.

You will soon find that gaining knowledge and forming your own conclusions is the best way to make your decisions around here.

 

[Insayn]

Re: LE Optic Question

Having gone through a lot of schools as well as instructing a few you will see anything and everything in the LEO arena. It is a large spectrum you are looking at from full time teams to part time regional teams.
We are a tier 1 team with a decent budget and procure grant money often so our gear is usually what we want. We do test various manufacturers and pick what fits our budget as well as our needs. If it doesn't we hold off and search for additional funding.
Smaller agencies with smaller budgets will get what they can. It may not be the top of the line, but it works for them I guess. I've seen Burris and Bushnells come through courses before as well as duplex reticles. It worked for them and got them through the course.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LE Optic Question

You would be amazed at some of the crap that the administrators spend money on. We're a "level 1 team" as well and about 2 years ago our C.O. decided that he wanted to spend money on a fucking LRAD. Yea an LRAD, the shit they use against Somali pirates and whale huggers. Thing is we don't have pirates nor do we have Japanese whaling ships in our A/O.

Meanwhile the grunts are still using 30+ year old Rem 700s and 20 year old MP-5s. But hey, we're a "level 1 team" right complete with robots, explosive breaching capabilities and an LRAD which is still in its crate two years later collecting dust.

 

[Northland]

Re: LE Optic Question

Alot of stuff LEO's use also goes with what will hold up in court. Leupolds are used by so many agencies that they hold up in the court room.

 

[DISMAS]

Re: LE Optic Question

"Shoot with your Bushnell and be proud of it serving you so well. Don't worry what the other guys have because in the end it really is irrelevant."

That's good advice if you're having to buy the stuff yourself. If you're not LE, and just wanting good hunting optics or target optics, then don't worry about what LE uses. You may be better setup with a 3X9 Burris or Leupold VX2 for a good hunt without spending over a grand. Bushnell Elite series are great for hunting and target stuff. You're setup pretty good. If it really matters, we had 24 guys in my sniper school and about 20 or so had Leupold MK4's. There was one guy with a Nightforce. I had my Falcon Menace and a couple others had target Leupolds. Leupolds are pretty popular with LE but probably aren't the best of the best. Keep in mind, this class consisted of 3 big city guys and the rest were smaller agencies (20,000 pop and under).

 

[PJ3]

Re: LE Optic Question

ogreshooter...I was asking the question because I work in the field and am interested in why all the teams around me (including my team) are using these scopes and how they became some sort of benchmark when there are many other apparently capable manufacturers to deal with. When I ask this question around here, I am told that Leupold is a reliable scope and commonly used (to which I have no argument). I just wanted other people’s input to my question. And no, you did not seem harsh and I’m not easily offended. Thanks for the reply.

As far as budget is concerned, we are very budget conscious and still managed to purchase $1100.00 optics for our 700’s. Our glass is locally par for the course so I don’t feel like most teams in my area skimp in any way on glass.

Northland, you said that Leupold will hold up in court. How do you mean? I was always under the impression that the level trainings, documentation, and what the officer knew as fact at the time of the shooting (Pa LE justification level for use of deadly force) is what make or break a court case. To the best of my knowledge, I am unaware of any LE shootings where the optic manufacturer was part of litigation but I admittedly have a limit knowledge base on the subject.

Slapchop…the LRAD seems like another admin purchase that somewhere was good in theory bad in practice. Has anyone ever tested it?

 

[Northland]

Re: LE Optic Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PJ3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ogreshooter...I was asking the question because I work in the field and am interested in why all the teams around me (including my team) are using these scopes and how they became some sort of benchmark when there are many other apparently capable manufacturers to deal with. When I ask this question around here, I am told that Leupold is a reliable scope and commonly used (to which I have no argument). I just wanted other people’s input to my question. And no, you did not seem harsh and I’m not easily offended. Thanks for the reply.



As far as budget is concerned, we are very budget conscious and still managed to purchase $1100.00 optics for our 700’s. Our glass is locally par for the course so I don’t feel like most teams in my area skimp in any way on glass.

Northland, you said that Leupold will hold up in court. How do you mean? I was always under the impression that the level trainings, documentation, and what the officer knew as fact at the time of the shooting (Pa LE justification level for use of deadly force) is what make or break a court case. To the best of my knowledge, I am unaware of any LE shootings where the optic manufacturer was part of litigation but I admittedly have a limit knowledge base on the subject.

Slapchop…the LRAD seems like another admin purchase that somewhere was good in theory bad in practice. Has anyone ever tested it?
</div></div>

I understand where you are coming from, but when you have a legit shooting and they have nothing else to go on, little things start getting picked at.

Just for an example, say someone shot and missed hitting a civilian or something... You don't think they're gonna look at that rifle, base, rings, scope etc? Try to find something to blame.

I've heard of them testing the trigger pulls on issued weapons before to see if it has been tampered with.

When it comes to Law Enforcement, you have to look at the department policies on things. Some departments require a Leupold, because that's what they are issued, and you can't buy you're own.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LE Optic Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the LRAD seems like another admin purchase that somewhere was good in theory bad in practice. Has anyone ever tested it?</div></div>

Tested it? HA! The thing is still in it's wooden crate. The only time it was moved was when it was delivered to us.

 

[PJ3]

Re: LE Optic Question

Maybe you should start a new policy...As part of the selection process for the team, you need to know what it feels like to be hit with the LRAD. They make us get hit by the Taser, OC, and gas. Why not the LRAD. You just need to make sure the senior members are grandfathered past that part of selection or you may be faced with a mass exodus from the team.

 

[SKS Guy]

Re: LE Optic Question

My Department uses a Leupold 3.5x10x40. Main reason is because most LEO shots are inside of 100 yards. I personally like a bigger scope.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Optic Question

I have seen everything from S&B, Nightforce and USO on LE Rifles all the way down to a Countersniper Scope. Yes, I actually saw a Countersniper on a rifle at a LE School being used by a LE Sniper.

Sometimes you come across the latest and greatest. Sometimes you don't. We have two Winchester M70's in the arsenal with very old Leupold scopes. They are retired, but at one point they were the cats ass and someone was happy to get them.

What a LE Sniper needs is reliable and repeatable. If he is issued a Bushnell that is reliable and repeatable, then fine. If he is issued a $3K scope that isn't then there is a problem that needs fixin'.

Manytimes you see what you see because it was the best deal. Sometimes you see it because the right guys got the right deals. Then you have the administrators that let the sales reps talk them into crap and they stuff it down the operators throat.

I have been asked for my input on things many times. Sometimes we get what I suggest. Sometimes we don't. We just have to accomplish the mission with what we are given. If I have to put a bullet in Mr. Tango's head, little Sally Hostage isn't going to care if it was a Schmidt & Bender or a Burris so long as that bullet hits its mark.

 

[BobM]

Re: LE Optic Question

We have 3 rifles with 3.5x10 VariX III Leupolds that date back to the early 90s. I've mentioned a few times we need to think about upgrading the scopes. The other day my boss says something along the lines of "sure, what's a good scope cost, about $600?". I about fell out of my chair but when I told him what I was interested in ($1200ish on up) he said we'd probably be able to replace one this year and go on from there.