LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITIONS

[TOP PREDATOR]

Post any learnings, tips or thoughts that you would like to share concerning the short range 4 Position and 50 yd Tactical Rimfire Competitions.

The goal is not only to test your own ability but to improve in areas lacking, either in shooting form or equipment, and also to be used as a training tool to achieve improved marksmanship.

It's also a great place to research performance of rifles, ammo, shooting techniques used, and other helpful equipment.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

First, when computing trajectories for .22LR projectiles, BC will vary somewhat, but for ballpark purposes, I use a BC value of .130.

Standard Velocity ballistic data, zeroed at 50yd.

Range Speed Energy Drop Path Elevn Windage Time
[yards] [fps] [ft.lb] [inches] [inches] [MOA] [MOA] [sec]
0 1050 98 0.00 -1.20 0.00
25 953 81 1.05 0.60 -2.29 2.39 0.07
50 861 66 4.50 0.00 0.00 5.01 0.16
75 775 53 10.90 -3.54 4.50 7.90 0.25
100 694 43 20.92 -10.71 10.20 11.10 0.35
125 619 34 35.47 -22.41 17.08 14.67 0.47
150 549 27 55.72 -39.81 25.27 18.68 0.60
175 483 21 83.22 -64.46 35.08 23.20 0.74
200 423 16 120.07 -98.46 46.89 28.34 0.91
225 367 12 169.15 -144.68 61.24 34.25 1.10
250 316 9 234.46 -207.14 78.91 41.10 1.32
275 270 6 321.71 -291.54 100.97 49.15 1.57
300 228 5 439.25 -406.22 128.96 58.73 1.88
325 190 3 599.59 -563.71 165.19 70.34 2.24
350 156 2 822.18 -783.45 213.18 84.67 2.67
375 126 1 1138.42 -1096.84 278.56 102.84 3.21

For High Velocity Bulkpak, zeroed at 50yd:

Range Speed Energy Drop Path Elevn Windage Time
[yards] [fps] [ft.lb] [inches] [inches] [MOA] [MOA] [sec]
300 216 4 337.43 -308.58 97.96 56.53 1.73
0 1260 141 0.00 -2.00 0.00
25 1140 115 0.73 -0.16 0.61 2.05 0.06
50 1026 93 3.14 0.00 0.00 4.32 0.13
75 918 75 7.62 -1.91 2.43 6.85 0.21
100 816 59 14.69 -6.41 6.11 9.69 0.30
125 720 46 25.03 -14.18 10.80 12.90 0.39
150 630 35 39.55 -26.13 16.59 16.55 0.51
175 546 26 59.51 -43.52 23.68 20.74 0.63
200 468 19 86.64 -68.07 32.42 25.60 0.78
225 396 14 123.40 -102.27 43.29 31.31 0.96
250 330 10 173.40 -149.69 57.03 38.11 1.16
275 270 6 241.98 -215.70 74.70 46.35 1.42
300 216 4 337.43 -308.58 97.96 56.53 1.73
325 168 3 473.05 -441.63 129.42 69.43 2.12
350 126 1 671.18 -637.20 173.39 86.33 2.64
375 90 1 971.68 -935.12 237.49 109.39 3.34

When equating ballistic performance between rimfire and centerfire chamberings, the value I use for comparison is time of flight. For a given time of flight, you will likely determine that the rimfire rounds drift a lot more than the centerfire rounds, but that drops are pretty much similar. Please note that performance for <span style="font-style: italic">your firearm</span> will usually differ in some small way from these charts, but that for ballpark purposes, they can serve as a useful guideline. Acknowledgement hereby rendered to Arthur Pejsa for the calulations used to provide these data.

Greg

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Here is a link to a YouTube WWII Training Video I posted before and will do again here. IMHO, what is offered in this video and others that follow are still to this day good marksmanship techniques. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4zt_8tZYM&annotation_id=annotation_367520&feature=iv

 

[IC2SS19Z50C5]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

BRAVO ZULU Joe, Excellent video!!!

Timeless in its application, although some modification of the basic positions have proven to be more successful over time. In my own personal experience the placing of the leather sling on the rifle is best done USMC fashion, with the hooks towards the rifle, not away from the rifle as depicted in the video. USMC style totally eliminates the sling loosening up during firing. A little harder to loosen after shooting, but it maintains the sling very tightly on the sling arm.

If the U.S. Army taught Soldiers how to shoot in the more traditional fashion the way the USMC does, using proven traditional discipline rifle marksmanship techniques, the U.S. Army would not be so on its “keister” marksmanship wise… I know some will take exception to my statement, but it is a fact. I witness it on a monthly and weekly basis at my day job. Everyday is spent "At The Range" so to speak.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

This technique works better on steel targets rather than paper, but the most important thing for .22 shooting is shot follow through for me.

For steel targets, try to see the bullet impact the target while still holding the crosshairs on the center of the target. For paper try to keep the crosshais on target until you can see the hole in the paper.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

between this and my silhoutte stuff, i've found that many don't think wind is much of a factor to move the bullet aroound as much at short range, however, the wind moves <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">ME</span></span> around enough to make a calculated shot even at short range difficult.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

It takes ALOT! of wind to make much impact at 25 yards for the bullet, I agree.

But when the wind blows me around, especially durring offhand, I tend to lose my mental focus, especially if it is a gusty day because it feels like I've got the wobbly's.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Wind is (for me) the biggest factor why I prefer to shoot the open iron & aperture sights at 25 & 50 yards.

When I practiced with a scope, movement in the wind was just to prevalent, but for some reason with the other sights I can manage the wind much better as it comes easier to me to concentrate on the front sight.

I think for me much of this is do to shooting the old open iron sighted muzzle loading rifles for 30+ years. I also follow through with the shot just like with anyother firearm.

Now long range and scope usage is a whole different story.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

I shot high Power at a range that was only 200 yards. So the black bull stayed the same size but the scoring rings got smaller to replicate 600 yards.

At the time I was only shooting Irons, peep rear, post front, and I still haaaaaaaaaaaaated the wind blowing me around. I can dope the bullet, but the wind pushing me really bugs.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

as it was 9 degrees out (1st excuse) i allowed weather to get to me, had to wear several layers of clothing (2nd excuse), had a surprising amount of misfires (3rd excuse)which threw my concentration off. i don't know if that had to do with the cold, or i got a "bum" batch of ammo. i know there are no excuses, but i tried.....

1. i tend to shoot left (as there was no wind to speak of). i think:

a) i tend to cant the rifle, as it is more comfortable for me this way, which could be also causing the leftness.
b) maybe just pulling shots that way without support(i'm left handed with rifle).
c) confirmed from bench with bipod and bag that my scope is zeroed, must be me pushing them off, put note in data book that i will have to compensate next month.
d) thought it could also be the amount of bulky clothing on affecting my shooting, but once again confirmed that i was indeed zeroed from the bench.

2. i feel more confident sitting than kneeling, however on paper it tells a different story. i did blow two shots at the sitting target, will have to compare to next month's target.

3. i'm really liking the 50 yard 4 position stuff. frustrating and rewarding at the same time. i also like the idea of circling a date on the calendar and shooting that date rather than gaming for nicer weather.

4. as silhoutte season approaches, i can see that i need more practice, and may need a lighter rifle (already looking) as the wood stock / heavy barrel / other accessories combo i have now is a bit too heavy. looking at a MKII F as a low budget build for silhoutte, these comps, and probably a low budget build post. $127 @ walmart.

5. i'm usually a 1 eye open shooter, but keeping both eyes open tends to help me out at short range, which is also something i learned from last year's silhoutte matches.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Wasn't quite as cold for me this morning - low 30's, and I started out pulling my shots to the right until I took off my jacket then my groups moved back left where they need to be. I'm a right handed shooter. So yes, IMHO, too much clothing does cause a person to pull there shot groups;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">maybe just pulling shots that way without support(i'm left handed with rifle).
</div></div>

I have no doubt that all of us shooting in this cold winter weather will see quite a change in our scores once favorable weather arrives. With this said, I still feel it is important to practice shooting in all seasons. Winter shooting is not my favorite, but it's a challenge that needs to be addressed IMHO.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Around here we get nine months of winter and three months when the sledding kinda sucks.
Looking at my scores posted on the short range competions the targets are talking. Hold you ear close and listen.
WHY YUH IDIOT! DO NOT quit shooting until the last shot is fired!
relaxing on the last bullseye will not do. NOW! git back to work and think about it all week.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Yes, you have a narrow window up there Clodhopper for good weather shooting. However, you do gain more insight on effective cold weather shooting.

I once read articles about those shooter's way up north in Maine, and how they built heated shooting houses at their local Ranges so they could shoot year round in even the worst of weather.

I always think about that when I get to my local Range and the weather is terrible. Have you ever given any thought to putting up such a small shooting house/shed that could be heated with a propane Mr. Heater? Wouldn't help the effect of the bullet down range so much I don't think, but it'd keep you out of the worst of weather conditions when shooting, which could effect the outcome of one's shooting? Just a thought.

 

[GCMxVeGeTa]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

This was fun, I'll have to do it again. Showed me how bad I suck offhand shooting lol. I blame it on my heavy ass Savage tho...

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Joe,
Over at the Butte gun club, thay have a schutzenhaus.
I sits on the 200 yard line in front of the highpower pits. With large windows about 3X5 that swing in from the top and hook out of the way. I am going from memoey now thinking 12 firing points.
The original building was constructed 190somthing, then fell into disrepair until the mid ninteys. At that time the club president Butch Ushler started to fix it up slowly as the funds could be raised. There were some historic building grants and now it is in very good shape with new roof, siding, and windows.
Inside from it's original are two huge US calvery wood stoves that will take logs 4' long and holds about 5 or 6 10" diameter logs. Those stoves will warm the place right up even with all the windows open. I think their web site is bcg.org
I will check right now and edit for correct address.
The address has ben corrected, no photos are on the web site, which is a shame.
They have schutzen matches year round and in Jan usually let the sevice rifle guys use it one day for a 100 round standing match which I have attended in the past.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Clodhopper, that pretty much describes the kind of building I was referring to. IMHO, those guys knew what the heck they were doing - designing a shooting house for year round usage. I bet those old cavalry stoves are worth a fortune!

I went shooting this morning as it was 40 degrees at 8:00 AM & no wind. I took advantage of this morning and worked a bit with my Savage MK II-FVT from 100 yards, and my 10/22 Ruger from 25 & 50 yards.

The more I shoot short range (25 & 50 yards) with my Aperture Sighted 10/22, the more I really enjoy these shorter ranges. Today I actually benched this rifle to see if there was any tweeking I needed to do to the TSR200 sight, but all was well. Shot one 25 yard 10 shot score that went for 96-6x over the bench just using the sling and elbow for support. Needless to say I was happy with that. Federal 510B ammo by the way.

The other three 10 shot scores I shot from the bench with the 10/22 (another 25 yard and two 50 yard) all went for scores of 89 with some X's on each target. I'm slowly re'learning this similar Military style type Aperture Sight. Just taking a little time. Of course I'm also still learning the new Fiberforce pistol grip stock on this 10/22 as well.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Here is a tip for shooting 'open iron sights' that dates way back to the days of when flintlocks were the rule ~ not the exception.

It is called a 'Rear Sight Shader' and is still used to this day for open iron sight shooting by those of us who have aging eyes but we don't want to give up our open iron sights just yet.

The materials may have changed since the old smokepole days, but the method of using a 'Rear Sight Shader' to draw a more true bead on your target remains the same. It really does help!

What I'm using here in this first picture (sorry about the blur, the next two pictures are more clear), is a 5" piece of thinwall 1-1/2" PVC that I've cut a groove out of, (it's actually a Shader I use on one of my flintlock's), so that it will fit over my Marlin 925 barrel and it will cover the Rear Sight. It's been spray painted black (Krylon Paint), and the strap to hold it on is made from velcro. You actually would want a snug fit against the sides of the barrel.

In this next photo you see the Shader over the Rear Sight, and it is held on with the velcro strap. It does help to block out the glare of the sun and helps to sharpen the rear sight notch which in turn will give a better sight picture even for my old eyes. The rear notch of my sight is 3/4" inside the rear of the Shader, which I've found to be plenty.

In this next picture I'm showing that all one needs to do to adjust their rear sight is to slide the Shader forward. Once the sight is adjusted ~ simply slide the Shader back over the rear sight. The velco strap (or what ever you choose to use) makes this set up easy to install and keep in place while shooting, and it's easily removed for on the days the Shader is not needed (such as overcast days), though some folks use them all the time, regardless of light conditions.

If you're having trouble seeing your rear sight notch, give a Shader a try. They're cheap to make and they might just work as well for you as they have for me in the past. I just need to remember to take them along to the Range with my .22's, just like I do with my flint and caplock rifles.

I'll also add that widening out your rear sight notch will aid in getting a better sight picture as well. Combine the two (wider rear sight notch & shader) and you've got a good combination that helps with aging eyes and keeps you in the Open Iron Sight game a little longer.

Good luck, and good shooting!

Click on this link and scroll down through pictures to a brass rear sight Shader on a flintlock;
http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/george_shroyer.html

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

this month (feb 2010) i learned that i prefer sitting to kneeling and off hand, i was much more comfortable, and also learned by dropping and pulling my elbows to the body made for better results.

i majorly blew 4 shots, a combination of weather, layered clothing, and shooter error.

i also learned the value of a "private" range. due to heavy snow, i had to go to the public range, the guy next to me started shooting at my target, the lower right one. 2nd time it happened there.

i used the rifle from the low budget threads, savage mkii "f"(no heavy barrel or laminated stock like my usual tool). since it is a bit lighter i have a feeling the heavier rifle would be better for stability, all though i couldn't hold the heavier rifle as long as the lighter rifle before some fatigue came into play. the heavier one seemingly allowed me to steady the aim and take a more stable shot before muscle fatigue became an issue.

is it just me or have others found the same situation?

i also learned that by pushing the lighter rifle back into my shoulder by using the webbing between my thumb and index finger against where the trigger guard meets the stock improved my hold in offhand, sitting, and kneeling. something i couldn't do repetively with the heavy barreled rifle.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Thanks for the posting good info
Bill

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

this month (March 2010) once again, i find myself shooting low. this time i was using rem. subsonics, i didn't adjust enough for the different ammo than i have been using. the groups and scores have gotten a little better since last month, although both of my prone groups should be better.

my kneeling shots suck, that's something i have to work on. i think it's trying to find the right kneeling position that i can reproduce consistantly and comfortably.

practicing for and shooting the silhouette match this month got my offhand back on track, though the group was low, again not properly adjusting for a different ammo.

and again a mystery round showed up from the next bench.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

This was a tough month for me to shoot with weather conditions being what they were. I was able to only shoot the 25 yard stage of the short range after work today, but I was glad I was able to get this in.

I learned that if one does not keep up with their shooting habits, months like these can be telling in your scores. My scores were climbing pretty decent with this short range stuff, that is until I wasn't able to get out to shoot for several weeks - and it shows in one's scores.

April should bring some good shooting days, now through October I'm hoping. In any event, it's always fun to be at the Range doing what one enjoys doing.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Top Predator,
In your kneeling position (assuming right eye shooting)
is your left foot far enough forward? Your calf should be sloping back to your body with the foot out ahead, your right knee spread wide for stability, and even though it hurts later, the ball and toes flat on the ground with the heel of the right foot centerd in the crack for solid bone support through the foot up the spine.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Stopped at the local good stuff emporium today on my way to the range.
Sure enough the two savage mark IIs with peep sights were still there gathering dust.
They had been there about a year unsold, fondled by yours truly a few times as they sat on the rack.
Today one left with me.
First savage .22 rimfire for me, several remingtons, a six rugers including an excellent 77-22, few marlins and CZs and one anschutz have been in my safe over the years.
All have been fired some are still with me.
This Savage is a great rifle. Others have said so here and elsewhere.
Now I want to join the fan club.
The bolt even though new is very slick, it's easy to open with the back of trigger and middle finger while maintaining position, and after some break in likley be possible to operate with the wave of the hand. Up and back, hand around bolt and forward and down.
The sights are nice peeps with hooded front and interchangable inserts. The lash in the elevation screw is a bit sloppy.
On just 250 rounds of one type of ammo fired, the accuracy is there. With some ammo selection could get better.
It has the accutrigger, unaltered it is better than any factory
I have.
The stock is pretty flexy in the forarm and short for me but there are ways to deal with that.
Nice rifle for $295.
Alterations contemplated at this time are possibly adding stiffeners to the stock by way of Dremel tool, aluminum angle and JB weld.
Adding some weight to the butt stock.

 

[MTETM]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Download this publication from CMP http://www.odcmp.com/Programs/TeachingRiflePositions.pdf . It is free and has a very good description of the proper kneeling position as described by Clodhopper...

Clodhopper
Nice new toy btw...need to bring it to this side of the state for a few day.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Top Predator,
In your kneeling position (assuming right eye shooting)
is your left foot far enough forward? Your calf should be sloping back to your body with the foot out ahead, your right knee spread wide for stability, and even though it hurts later, the ball and toes flat on the ground with the heel of the right foot centerd in the crack for solid bone support through the foot up the spine.</div></div>

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Funny thing about the new markII, my score posted on april sr thread woud have been 4 points higher with better kneeling on my part.
The position was pretty steady, the shooter did not spend enough time on NPOA. the hits were strung out at 9 oclock.
MTETM, would like to come see ya, I have some work right now gotta do it while avalaible.
We only have one job and will not be doing any sub contracting.
I will be pouring concrete soon.
If you are going to be here this week maybe we can go shoot after work.
There's lonely gophers at red bluff and target board at logan.

 

[badbot]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

try taking the bolt out of your heavyest rifle and during the commercials all winter hold a sight pic till your show comes back on. by summer your light and heavy .22s will be rock solid and not tire you out on the line.

I used a wood crutch gripping the top like a pistol.
that realy trained the muscles for pistol shooting.
sighting from the top to the tip 5' makes you work for a good sight picture.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stopped at the local good stuff emporium today on my way to the range.
Sure enough the two savage mark IIs with peep sights were still there gathering dust.
They had been there about a year unsold, fondled by yours truly a few times as they sat on the rack.
Today one left with me.
First savage .22 rimfire for me, several remingtons, a six rugers including an excellent 77-22, few marlins and CZs and one anschutz have been in my safe over the years.
All have been fired some are still with me.
This Savage is a great rifle. Others have said so here and elsewhere.
Now I want to join the fan club.
The bolt even though new is very slick, it's easy to open with the back of trigger and middle finger while maintaining position, and after some break in likley be possible to operate with the wave of the hand. Up and back, hand around bolt and forward and down.
The sights are nice peeps with hooded front and interchangable inserts. The lash in the elevation screw is a bit sloppy.
On just 250 rounds of one type of ammo fired, the accuracy is there. With some ammo selection could get better.
It has the accutrigger, unaltered it is better than any factory
I have.
The stock is pretty flexy in the forarm and short for me but there are ways to deal with that.
Nice rifle for $295.
Alterations contemplated at this time are possibly adding stiffeners to the stock by way of Dremel tool, aluminum angle and JB weld.
Adding some weight to the butt stock.
</div></div>

This sounds like the Savage MKII FVT, Clodhopper. I had mine configured with a scope on it for long range shooting, but decided to put the Peep Sights back on it for the 25 & 50 yard SH Short Range Comps, though a person is not limited to just those two ranges. I will stretch mine out to 100 yards one of these days once the weather gets better.

 

[jayd4wg]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1736540#Post1736540
I discovered that I favor a kneeling position over a sitting position. Still packing some extra skin/fat around the mid section (had GBS a year ago)got in the way of good breathing when hunched over hugging the rifle in a sitting postion. Kneeling was just much more comfortable and stable for me.

Also, need to write down the order of the targets...I shot wrong pos on 2 of the targets...but noted it as such. I also found that it's FAR easier to hold on target when you dial back the scope power a little bit too. Trying to hold at 50y on 16x was tough. dialed back to about 10x and things settled right in for me.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

that was an outstanding target you posted in the thread, especially for 50 yards!

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Joe,
Yes it is the MkII FVT.
I will probably just keep the peeps on this rifle for now at least, I have other scoped .22s
MTETM showed up in Bozo, (300 miles from his home) had some time to kill, so we went to the range last night after work.
That rifle got another work out.
Shot and appleseed AQT and it was good enough with 238/250 with one crossfire that cost 5.
Did not shoot with in the time constraints do to having only 1 5 roung mag.
After a couple hunderd rounds at 25y we moved over to the main range, and put some clay bird out at 200 and 300m.
I put away the FVT and got out the 10-22 with 20 min rail and 20 min in the burris rings.
MTETM just kept going with his CZ.
There were three young men over there shooting centerfire bolt guns from the bench.
They chuckled as we got out .22s and started loading mags.
Those youngsters were having trouble hitting 18" steel gongs at 300.
So they were watching when we started shooting. No we didn't break a bird on every shot but they were landing close enough that the spectators were impressed.
Just before it got dark we asked them to come over and try our rifles. They got in some good shooting.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

You and MTETM may very well have planted some seeds that night Clodhopper. Nice job!

 

[bserebreni]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

WHAT A GREAT SITE. AFTER I READ IT ALL I'LL COMMENT. THANKS

 

[m48shooter]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

joe, thx for the video... love watching those oldie but goodies..

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

You're welcome m48shooter. Those old training videos are pretty interesting. Wish I could find more of them.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Clodhopper;
Today I shot my first wronghanded match.
The right side of the comb needs to have some material removed.
Had to dial down the power to 2 1/2X to see the cross hair.
And 6 minutes right adjustment was a big zero improvement.
Shrink;
How did that make you feel?
Clodhopper,
Awkward....it was all wrong, sling would not stay up. Hard to see through the scope... non dominate eye plus comb to big there.
Left finger has no nerve damage in the pad like right trigger finger and the trigger evidently sucks...never was a problem before. Right Shoulder not stretched out enough to get it in the proper position. Tried to bend the wrong knee.
Took lots of wiggeling around to find natural point of aim.
Shrink,
What compels you to this activity?
Clodhopper,
That's what I came to you to talk about.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Had time to go to the range today since it was still May did not fire for score.
A 4 1/2" grinder with 60 grit sand paper and a random orbit sander accompanied me to the range. Between rain squalls I removed material from the right side of the comb and fired righhanded (normal) then lefthanded (wrong) untill groups from both shoulders laid on top of each other.
The stock was a rough cut walnut blank from wallisforge. The addition of an adjustable butpad + two layers of 4/4 walnut board gave the stock enough length to fit ole clod.
The over all shape and look of the stock is not a thing of beauty but I am happy with it's function.
Right now tung oil is soaking in the freshly sanded surfaces.
After some thought I will take the sanders to it again to give a better shape where my face and hands do not contact it during shooting.
Moved over to the longrange portion of the range and flopped down prone with pod and rear squeeze bag then twiddleed the knobs for 200 meters. Fired two to check impacts, close.
There were three guys near me sighting hunting rifles from benches. I told them "see that clay bird at 200?" They looked, I fired, with a great stroke of luck the target broke and peices rolled down the berm.
Okay see those clay birds at 300? with a 26 minutes of elevation the first shot was close but it took six or so to hit it.
They asked is that a 17?
No just a .22
Is that a ruger?
Well some of it is.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

^^^^ALMOST THE SAME FEELING HERE!

finally had the opportunity to shoot the short range on the support side, and found it very enlightening. Surprisingly I shot as good if not better offhand and sitting. Kneeling is still my weak point.

I'm not sure if because I was shooting support side I gave more
attention to fundamentals, however it was just like starting to shoot over again. So I "relearned":

1. reinstated to myself the importance of a good / constant cheek weld

2. reinstated to myself the importance of a good grip / trigger feel

3. form, as I had to take extra time to "make sure I was set" before taking a shot

4. follow through. Many shots were thrown by not staying steady after, or during, squeezing the trigger. Trying to get the shot off in an "odd support side" position, I knew that I was making the error of not following through.

While I have shot support side before, I didn't go to the extent of purposely shooting more than a few rounds. As I shoot pistol right handed and predominantly right handed for most things I shoot rifle left handed. The right side being my support side with rifle may not have been such a handicap as to others in this instance because of me being rightie with almost everything else. I did not do as bad as I had thought I would have, especially in the offhand / sitting / and kneeling positions.

Besides being challenging and entertaining, I believe this is going to be good training / practice for odd position shots, hunting, and other things.

"well shrink, driving home from the range, i felt like my left hand should be on the shifter....."

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Top,
watch out for the Highway patrol wanting to give you a sobriety test for driving on the wrong side of the road comming home from one of those support side sessions.

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

I'd like to see some photos of your stock work if you have them. I shot in one of these awhile back and it was a learning experience. It is fun though to learn different shooting positions when it doesn't cost $1 everytime you pull the trigger.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

I you are asking about my stock, I have no photos.
To lazy to go through the steps to post any. Would rather be loading ammo or shooting ammo than learn something bound to be obslete next month.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

shot my best 4p today. 239-10x

other than putting in more qualtiy practice sessions, i was actually beat (tired, whooped) while shooting it. was working all day in the yard, then i thought i'd shoot some.

i actually think being that bushed helped me relax and stay loose, which may have helped.

so now i'll have to work 9 hrs in the sun before i shoot to get a respectable score!

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

was always shooting the 4-p without a sling, remembered to use one today. the points are not as improved as much as the groups are. using the sling certainly gave me more stability.

i shot the support side first, as i usually "find" something that i have forgotten or gotten complacent with shooting regular. seemed to work, as i went immediately back to a grip i used years ago that i have since (for some reason) had gotten away from on the regular side. i carried it over to the 4-p shot regular side, and groups improved dramatically. that "forgotten" grip may have been the missing thing, along with the proper use of the sling.

i was also using the "straight back behind the rifle" in the prone position rather than the usual "little green army guy" off center prone stance. this seemed to really get me back on target quicker, seemd to lock in to my shoulder better, and even more stability. less tension on the neck too.

check out the straight behind the rifle threads and online training here on the hide, it seemed to help me out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=related

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Yesterday our local club held a .22lr offhand rifle match which we shot at various shapes & sizes of gongs from mixed distances of 25 to 65 yards.

I attribute my winning of the Aperture Class yesterday to our 4 position matches where we have to shoot offhand at the top left bull as this is about the only time I ever practice offhand shooting with my Ruger 10/22. I believe without this "training" I would have not scored 23 of 30 hits which was also the same score of the guy who won the Scope Class. So I feel our matches here do pay off.

Here's a link to our results;

http://nwnsa22lrrimfire.blogspot.com/

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

that's definately cool, congratulations.

i can also contribute this year's small game success to the 4p and the smallbore silhouette shooting i do on the side.

feels good to be confident enough not to have to look for a tree to lean on, and just take the off hand shot.

again, congratulations!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Congrats on the win! That is great! I need to get some off-hand practice. Unfortunately, at my range, the benches are fixed at the 50 yd, so I can't practice seated. I could probably do off-hand, though.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Nice job Joe. Congrats!!

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

Thanks guys, everyone had a good time and we're planning for our next one.

There was some talk of getting another match in before the snow hits, but I think the earliest we're looking at is March of 2011. In the next match we'll combine paper and metal and up the official scoring count to 50 shots in the following order,,,

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Round One</span>
5 shots paper - 15 shots gongs - 5 shots paper (25 shots)

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Round Two</span>
5 shots paper - 15 shots gongs - 5 shots paper (25 shots)

Any thoughts on our "C" [combo] class where we allow someone to change from say an open sight in the first round to say a scope in the second round. We allowed this last Sunday under the provisions anyone doing this has to complete the round with the sighting system they started with - then they could make the change in the second round if they so desired.

We sure had a good time.

 

[haptoshoot]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

I have been shooting mostly 10/22's. Three variants, scoped, tech sights and red dot( 0x 4moa dot). I alternate between the 5 position target and an Appleseed AQT target.

Stuff i figured out:

My eyes have aged with the rest of me. I do not enoy shooting at bleary bulls with a fuzzy front post. If I really focus and relax I score almost as good as the Red Dot but get a headache. I will only shoot irons as a back up on my SHF riffle(223 AR).

With the scoped 10/22 I've really done most of my position learning and trigger skill improvement.
• Breath and squeeze at the bottom of the breath do NOT hold your breath.
• Follow through! The hole always appears from behind the cross hair after the shot.
• Cheek weld. After adding a check rest I gained 5-6 points
• RELAX, muscle tension creates jerky movement which really pushes a bad shot even farther from the intended POA

The Red dot allows me to shoot quickly to different distances and both eyes open when needed. I only give up a small amount of precision 3-4 points on the 5 precision target. Because of the size of the dot and size of target it does not allow precision for the 50yard sniper target. This is a great varmint set up for around the ranch. 60 grain SS rounds can be launched quickly and accurately when needed. Marauding skunks, coons and 1 coyote have been removed from the yard.

 

[haptoshoot]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

This weekend a added a MK II TR to the stable.

With this I've learned that I need to improve at aquiring a Natural Point of Aim as my sight picture changes drasticlly with cycling the bolt. I believe I am also relying on the trigger hand to support the butt more than I should.

On the 5 position bull and Appleseed targets I can score similar scores with all of the mentioned rifles when I do my part. From a tricked out too expensive 10/22 to a stock 10/22 with red dot or iron sights and an accurate bolt gun.

All get the job done for anything less than ultra prescision work out to 75 yards.

Hmm ............. so it really is the shooter and not the equipment

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: LEARNINGS FROM SH SHORT RANGE RF COMPETITION

One nice thing about shooting metal is that a little bit of wind drift won't hurt you as much as it would on paper as long as you get a good read on the metal when it's hit. The swing of the metal when the bullet strikes it is a valuable tool for us iron sight shooters.

Paper does allow and requires us to shoot with more precession and fortunately from 25 yards I can still see well enough to pick up a .22 hit in the black.

I like all sighting systems, but still prefer the iron for close range work and even out to 100 yards. Which in todays world of .22's, 100 yards is almost becoming "short range" for many.

It's a great sport!