Lee Enfield Information?

[Ghost1941]

A guy I know received this rifle as a gift, just trying to get some background information on it if at all possible. I perused through some online websites but I don't know what any of the markings mean... Says it's a MKIII. I know there are a lot of you out there with experience with older weapons, so I figured I'd bring it here first. Thanks a lot guys.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Does it have any markings on the butt socket band on the bolt handle side of the rifle? Are theere any numbers on the nose cap or any other markings in the wood?

Is it .303 or a 7.62 conversion?

You show a pic of an S stamped into the wood...where abouts on the rifle is that? It looks like it is on the underside of the pistol grip close to the socket? If so this is an Indian Service marking and ties into a copule of the other marks below.

I believe the M stamped on the bolt head (third pic) signifies that the bolt is the <span style="font-weight: bold">M</span>alleable cast iron spec. The crossed flags below and to the left are the proof mark but my reference book doesn't specify which manufacturer might have used this.

However the proof marks on the barrel and receiver in Pic 1 look very much like Ishapore markings...they are not clear but look like a crown with GR1 underneath with crossed flags and the letter P underneath.

The HC mark on the barrel behind the rearsight signify High Velocity and that the rifle has been sighted for the Mk VII round. The SC marking means "small cone increased, lead from chamber to rifling for MKVII ball"

In Pic 5, below where it says No1MkIII the letters could be either FP or FR?....if they are FR this could correspond with a stamp used in India to signify Field Repair...although Skennerton says this is normally found on the receiver. This could tie in with the square mark on the barrel...this is similar to the mark used to signyfy parts stored for emergency use or repairs which was a rectangular mark.

The barrel does appear to be a later addition (just based on the appearance of the blueing and difference in the serial number stamp)

I can't find any manufacturer marks that appear as FP (normally I'd expect the manufacturer's name/code to appear here).

I can't match up the serial numbers (either the S prefix 4 digit or the 5 digit Z suffix) yet....I'll come back to you if I can....other than to suggest that your mate has an Ishapore manufactured rifle with a mismatched bolt.

Hope this helps? But probably just raised more questions?

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Re: Serial numbers...

The only four digit S prefix numbers (as on the bolt handle) I can find seem to be:

Enfield RSAF between 1915 and '18
BSA between 1915-'18
National Rile Factory #1 between 1915 - '18 (I believe this was an Indian production facility, part of the Ishapore complex?)

Still can't find anything definite on 5 digit Z suffix numbers...

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Hey,
Thanks a lot for the replies… I’ll attempt to answer what I can. I don’t have the rifle in hand right now but will have access to it again tomorrow. I printed off both of your replies, anything in italics I will answer tomorrow and take more pictures if necessary.

<span style="font-style: italic">“Does it have any markings on the butt socket band on the bolt handle side of the rifle? Are theere any numbers on the nose cap or any other markings in the wood?”</span>
I’ll take a look in the morning.

“Is it .303 or a 7.62 conversion?”
It is .303

“You show a pic of an S stamped into the wood...where abouts on the rifle is that? It looks like it is on the underside of the pistol grip close to the socket? If so this is an Indian Service marking and ties into a copule of the other marks below.” That is indeed the location, the butt of the rifle was on my right leg… you can see the bolt handle in the lower right hand corner of the picture along my ACU’s.

I believe the M stamped on the bolt head (third pic) signifies that the bolt is the Malleable cast iron spec. The crossed flags below and to the left are the proof mark but my reference book doesn't specify which manufacturer might have used this.
“I see, that would make sense that each manufacturer would have a different symbol. Is it broken down by country, individual plant in a country, or date manufactured? I apologize in advance for my lack of knowledge on this subject… Again, thanks for the help.

“However the proof marks on the barrel and receiver in Pic 1 look very much like Ishapore markings...they are not clear but look like a crown with GR1 underneath with crossed flags and the letter P underneath.”
I will attempt a clearer picture, if still indistinguishable I will attempt to replicate them in some form.

“The HC mark on the barrel behind the rear sight signify High Velocity and that the rifle has been sighted for the Mk VII round. The SC marking means "small cone increased, lead from chamber to rifling for MKVII ball"”
Is this the typical ammunition used, or is it anything specific?

<span style="font-style: italic">“In Pic 5, below where it says No1MkIII the letters could be either FP or FR?....if they are FR this could correspond with a stamp used in India to signify Field Repair...although Skennerton says this is normally found on the receiver. I can't find any manufacturer marks that appear as FP (normally I'd expect the manufacturer's name/code to appear here.)”</span>
I believe it was FP, but I will check again tomorrow.

I can't match up the serial numbers (either the S prefix 4 digit or the 5 digit Z suffix) yet....I'll come back to you if I can....other than to suggest that your mate has an Ishapore manufactured rifle with a mismatched bolt. “ Yes, the bolt is infact mismatched as far as serial numbers. Is there any other identification areas that may be obscured by the wood? I did not disassemble the rifle to search for it.

“Hope this helps? But probably just raised more questions? ”
It did help immensely, I’ve been reading around trying to find something. Anything I do come across you seem to have already covered.
“The only four digit S prefix numbers (as on the bolt handle) I can find seem to be:

Enfield RSAF between 1915 and '18
BSA between 1915-'18
National Rile Factory #1 between 1915 - '18 (I believe this was an Indian production facility, part of the Ishapore complex?)”
So the bolt is likely from an Indian facility, and according to the markings on the left side of the receiver and barrel it is likely from India as well. However, with the Z suffix still uncertain the exact location is unknown. Hmm, I’m curious what these rifles were used for(other than the obvious)? What were done with them after their service? I know it’s impossible to track an individual weapon, just curious who they might have been sold to/bought by/given too, etc…

Again, thank you very much for your assistance.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey,
Thanks a lot for the replies </div></div>

No worries, you're welcome

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it broken down by country, individual plant in a country, or date manufactured? I apologize in advance for my lack of knowledge on this subject</div></div>

No apology needed mate, I'm no expert...I've just got a copy of Skennerton's book "The Lee Enfield"

Basically rhere are loads of different manufacturer, inspection, armourer and issue stamps.

Over the life of a rifle many could have been added. But at the simplest level, yes...the factory/contractor manufacturing the rifle originally would have their own unique identifying stamps. Whilst Skennerton's book is the recognised reference on the Lee Enfield he admits that it is not, and probably never could be, an exhaustive study.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However the proof marks on the barrel and receiver in Pic 1 look very much like Ishapore markings...they are not clear but look like a crown with GR1 underneath with crossed flags and the letter P underneath.&#148;
I will attempt a clearer picture, if still indistinguishable I will attempt to replicate them in some form.</div></div>

Here's a pic from the book:

Sorry it is not too clear but it shows the Ishapore marks....the one on your mate's rifle looks like a poorly made stamp of eighth one down from top on left side.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the typical ammunition used, or is it anything specific?.</div></div>

This was the standard 174gr Spitzer round introduced in 1910 and went all the way through to today (including WW1 and WW2)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm, I&#146;m curious what these rifles were used for(other than the obvious)? What were done with them after their service? I know it&#146;s impossible to track an individual weapon, just curious who they might have been sold to/bought by/given too, etc</div></div>

I've seen MkIII in current use by the Indian Police force.

In the past, for example after WW1, surplus rifles were shipped all over the Empire wherever it was felt there was a need.

After WW2 a lot of Enfields were shipped to Italy to re-eqip the Italian Navy. They ended up all over the place. Skennerton's book as a picture of a container load in storage somewhere in Nepal or Kashmir...hundreds of them covered in cosmoline just stacked up on top of each other.

Let me know what else you can find and I'll see what i can find out.

Cheers

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

The 8th one down, or the 9th? Again, I'll draw it out or take a better picture if I can.

Disregard, rotated it definitely reads GRI

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Yep, the eighth one.

The fourth one down is the one on the bolthead.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

ghost1941, if you get a chance look carefully at the butt plate, trigger, trigger guard, magazine floor, nose cap, front barrel band...all these places could have inspectors marks that may help tie it down a bit more.

On my Enfield (LSA 1915) there are also inspectors marks stamped in the wood (under the pistol grip just behind the trigger guard and under the forend, just behind the nose cap).

The serial number is also stamped under the fore-end.

I'm not sure if this is the same on the Ishapore rifles though......

Having had a close look at mine this evening the quality/legibility of the stamps seems less crude and better struck (for want of a better expression) than those in your pics.

The font of the serial number is consistent wherever the serial numbers appear (bolt handle, bayonet stud on front of nosecap, receiver) - the font looks different from the barrel to the receiver on yours, so maybe done at a different time??

I've sent you some pics on a PM.

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Alright, I took quite a few additional photos. This rifle has no markings in the location that yours has the year manufactured. I found a bunch of smaller symbols and numbers located around the rifle... they may be useless but figured it couldn't hurt.

Edit** Dammit, I took and deleted a few of them on accident off the camera.

Thanks again, Merry Christmas!

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

The end of the barrel has the same serial as the receiver and the barrel with the Z Suffix.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Hello Ghost

Thanks for the further pics.

I've done a little more research and Pic 4 in your OP looks very much like Indianownership (unit??) or arsenal butt markings that Skennerton describes as "post independence".

It looks like the bolt has the early round cocking piece with the knurled end rather than the later rectangular and grooved type. I believe thes earlier type were phased out during WW1 in favour of the rectangular versions...this could tie in with the 1915-18 type serial number on the bolt?

I think most of the second pics show inspectors marks of some sort but I do not have any information on how to identify these or track them down to specific facilities or dates.

The only thing I would say is that the one in your second post pics (Pic5) looks like a Hindi/Arabic number "6" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals). I have an Indian production Enfield 1888 pattern bayonet in my collection that is marked entirely with these type numerals.

My opinion FWIW is that the rifle is an Indian manufactured weapon that shows signs of various repairs over it's service life (replacement bolt, new barrel) and that has a number of stamps confirming it's origin (the S stamp on the pistol grip and Indian style arsenal/issue markings on the butt).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost1941</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The end of the barrel has the same serial as the receiver and the barrel with the Z Suffix.</div></div>

I believe it was quite normal for replacement parts to be stamped with the serial number of the original rifle and the difference in the font between the receiver and barrel may be indicative of this process.

As with any old battle rifle, they may have gone through so many different users,units and armourers over the course of their life that it will always be a puzzle to work out the history.

The numerous markings on the barrel and what I believe to be the manufacturer's markings on the left side of the socket band would be worth further research but I don't have any info that can help with this.

I'd suggest that the FP 42 may be the manufacturer name and date of the original rifle (although I can't find anything that confirms that the 5 digit Z suffix serial number ties into this

), that the 59 on the barrel could be the date it was replaced and that the bolt is a much older part used as a replacement...but that is all just guess work.

Maybe a post on one of the Enfield collectors forums could throw some light on these?

Good luck with it...and if you find out anything else I'd be interested to hear.

Whatever happens, I hope you mate enjoys the rifle and shoots the shit out of it...that's what it was built for

Mine is 95 years old now and I regularly shoot it....it still has the smoothest, easiest action of all my rifles!

Merry Christmas Ghost!

Cheers

Andy

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Hey,

Thanks alot for all the information. I will go to an Enfield forum as suggested and see what they have to offer on the individual stampings. You have cleared up pretty much everything I needed to know. Not sure if he'll be able to shoot anymore than the rounds he got with it.

Thanks a bunch.

Merry Christmas.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

There should be a ready supply of 174gr .303 British....maybe he'll get a chance to get some back home?

All the best, Ghost.

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

Ahh, we're not allowed to bring home "War Trophies", however the unit is going to bring it back and stick it in a show case after it has been "decommissioned" as they say.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

I owned an Ishapur No 1 MKIII(2A) manufactured with an original 7.62x51 NATO chambering. It is not a conversion, but a modern redesign using proper specifications and metallurgy to accomodate the NATO chambering.

Mine was relatively well worn, but functionality and accuracy were excellent for an issue grade battle rifle.

I sold mine when it became my last remaining rifle chambered in .308. Probably not one of my best decisions.

Greg

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Lee Enfield Information?

I believe my Enfield may have been in a regimental museum for a long while.....thankfully it didn't get decommissioned/activated. Different days!

If you have any UK forces near you, maybe ask the armourer's if they can get hold of any .303 for you?? Not sure on regs on this but you never know

Wishing you and your unit a very Happy New Year....and thanks for all you are doing.