So after having this service I am thinking about terminating my merchant account and not accepting credit cards anymore. I would like to hear opinions from others if it is really a deal breaker or not if a Firearms business does not accept credit cards.
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Gunsmithing Let's talk Credit Cards
- Thread starter dakor
- Start date
Can't say about firearms business but i owned another small business and accepting cards was a deal breaker for many. This day and age I would say its a must.
I'd say it's a deal breaker unless you already have a lot of business. I'm having a rifle built form a hide vendor that does not accept them, but they have no problems keeping up.
Just for a reference, I know a local smith who was frustrated with taking CCs for a variety of reasons and dropped his merchant account and watched orders for new rifles drop significantly whereas service work mostly stayed the same. People making big purchases are on average more inclined to use CC than for smaller sums, which makes sense when you think about it. "I can wait 5 more months and pay for the rifle or I can put it on a CC and pay it off in 5 months, but have it sooner." So he went back to taking CCs but added a % fee (I think based on merchant fees) for their use, which seems like a fair balance.
That 3% is baked right into the price if it's not an upcharge.
I really hate paying extra to use a credit card, but bottom line is the CC company doesn't do the transactions for free. Someone's gotta pay. Maybe someday Unicef will get into the convenient money lending business - but until then, Visa/Mastercard are the folks to see.
So you are saying I should just eat that 3% surcharge on everything I sell, because you don't like to carry cash? It's for your convenience that most places accept CC.
I actually prefer CC. It leaves a "paper" trail that can be followed should a problem arise. It's hard enough to do business as a small business. If you don't like the "fee" don't shop there. Pretty simple.
I actually prefer CC. It leaves a "paper" trail that can be followed should a problem arise. It's hard enough to do business as a small business. If you don't like the "fee" don't shop there. Pretty simple.
Let me tell you why they charge the 1 to 3 percent for using a credit card. That is what the credit card merchant charges him or her. They are actually giving you a break if you use cash. When you buy things at a store and don't use your credit card, the store makes more profit. Retailers add the 3% to everything they sell because they don't know who will be buying cash or with a CC. Real small businesses like a one man shop building one custom rifle at a time don't do this. They are actually trying to offer you an honest discount for using cash. They all hate the merchants because they get all kinds of monthly service charges even if they don't use them. Unfortunately if you don't have a merchant account you will lose business because America loves to have the option to own it now and pay for it later. Lets face it, a custom rifle at about $3500.00 is not exactly peanuts for most people.
One of my happiest moments in life was telling my Merchant to go fuck them selves for all of the unfair charges they made me pay just to keep the account open.
Just one of the many reasons I chose to close my rifle building business.
I am not saying any business--whether it's Walmart, Best Buy, Cabelas, or a sole business owner--should eat any of the numerous costs associated with running a business. Whether it's the cost of a rent for the store, computers, tools, cash register, grocery bags, grocery carts, employee wages, benefits, insurance, etc. All of the costs should be included in the cost of the products and services that the customer pays for. If a business can't compete on pricing against other businesses in the industry than they better offer something else to the customer, such as better customer service, location, hours...something, or go into a different business. Otherwise, why should a customer pay one business more than the other businesses vying for my hard earned money. For me, I will pay more for customer service, which seems all but dead. I am amazed when time after time I see a business being thanked by the customer, instead of vice versa. It seems like the whole world has a sense of entitlement including businesses. I vaguely remember small businesses in the distant past going above and beyond to make a customer feel valued and wanting to do the small things to earn the business. I can spend what little money I have on hundreds of different things from thousands of different brick and mortar and online stores. And for many reasons, safety, convenience, record keeping, etc. I don't want to carry a couple thousand dollars on me throughout the month to buy my groceries, gas, and other items. If a business doesn't want to offer the service and convenience of accepting credit cards when the vast majority of others will, that is certainly their choice, as spending my money with the store next door or the online store that is open 24 hours a day.
You must not shop at very many small businesses/one man shops. A lot of small businesses will give you cash discounts if you ask for it. Some gas stations have started charging more for credit cards as well.
I think it is total B.S. that most places DO NOT charge an up front credit card fee. It is not like 3% could not be added automatically when you swipe the card and hit credit.
Lets say that you spend $18k in a year on your credit card ($1,500 a month). If you paid in cash and that 3% was not automatically added into the price, then you would have an extra $540 cash in hand that year. I will take $540 away from a big bank and put it in my pocket any day of the week.
That said if I am buying from Walmart, then fuck Walmart, I will use my credit card and get my rewards. If I am buying from a company that actually makes something in America, then I am paying cash/check regardless of who gets the extra 3 % off their overhead.
First let me comment from the other end. I don't sell anything or provide a service where I would collect payments. I do buy a lot of stuff though beings I'm in the spending phase of m life instead of saving/investing. Its not bad in my little community because everyone knows me but when I leave town people don't like to take checks. Too many dead beats ruined it for us. I don't carry a lot of cash and I'm an impromptu buyer. Seldom do I go out with the intention of buying stuff, but I do. I like to use Debit cards. If I'm not sure of the place I'm dealing with OR shopping on the internet I use Credit Cards. If something turns sour my CC company wont honor the payment until the seller works it out with me.
I understand their is a fee involved with CC/DCs and I have no problem with the business owners adding that fee to the cost of their product.
I had to pass up some buys because the merchant wouldn't take credit cards and I don't like ATM fees.
JMHO
I understand their is a fee involved with CC/DCs and I have no problem with the business owners adding that fee to the cost of their product.
I had to pass up some buys because the merchant wouldn't take credit cards and I don't like ATM fees.
JMHO
To get a cc account for firearm purchases that are not face to face is a major ordeal to begin with. Swiping a customers card in your shop or store is vastly different than a customer 1000 miles away. MOST cc companies won't do business with you unless the transactions are face to face. I have had several banks want my business but when it gets passed onto to their corporate office it is always denied. I can list the lending institutions if you want. The cc companies that do work with you charge the gun builder a 3% charge because they can and because they either hate guns or want to gouge you because it is socially acceptable to hate guns and gun makers. I keep my merchant account active but I tell all long distance customers there is a 3% fee. I URGE them to send a check. Never had a bad check yet 
Anyway, I think it is extortion to make firearm sales non face to face pay a penalty. Ask me how I know this
Anyway, I think it is extortion to make firearm sales non face to face pay a penalty. Ask me how I know this
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The latest fee I have started being charged for in my city (Santa Fe) due to recent municipal legislation is retailers--grocery stores, office supply stores, Walmart, etc. have either just started or are going to start in approximately the next 90 days charging for each paper bag they use to bag my purchase. The store told me that The legislation prohibits the retailers from using plastic bags. I have been told that the charge by the retailers is from $0.10 to as high as $0.50 per bag. Maybe stores will start charging us for using a cashier lane instead of the self-service lane.
To get a cc account for firearm purchases that are not face to face is a major ordeal to begin with. Swiping a customers card in your shop or store is vastly different than a customer 1000 miles away. MOST cc companies won't do business with you unless the transactions are face to face. I have had several banks want my business but when it gets passed onto to their corporate office it is always denied. I can list the lending institutions if you want. The cc companies that do work with you charge the gun builder a 3% charge because they can and because they either hate guns or want to gouge you because it is socially acceptable to hate guns and gun makers. I keep my merchant account active but I tell all long distance customers there is a 3% fee. I URGE them to send a check. Never had a bad check yet
This is exactly how I was treated. If anyone offers me a 3% savings for buying with cash, I take it. CC company's get paid by the retailer, and the consumer who use them. I'm not saying I don't use them, but they get the least from me as possible.
Another thing to think about is those rewards cards. In addition to the CC fees our store has to pay, the STORE is the one that provides those fees back to the consumer. It is unreal the amount of money we pay back for CC and Rewards cards fees.
Also, in our area, almost all new guns are 10% over cost. Pay with a CC, and we are down to 7%. Factor in our salespeople's commissions, and we can be down as far as 5%. And people wonder why we won't include the sales tax in the sale price. We do brisk sales but no one is getting rich.
Also, in our area, almost all new guns are 10% over cost. Pay with a CC, and we are down to 7%. Factor in our salespeople's commissions, and we can be down as far as 5%. And people wonder why we won't include the sales tax in the sale price. We do brisk sales but no one is getting rich.
You simply put a sign at the register or tell people there's 3% charge for use of credit cards?. If they want to pay cash they save the fee! It's a service you give to the customer an option to pay that way. But the credit company charges you 3% to let them us credit to pay. So you either eat the 3% in hope it bring more business or you pass it along... Pretty simple stuff.
Would you rather they just flat out raise all their prices 3% and offer a "cash discount"?
And who are you to judge someone's business plan? Would you be ok taking a 3% take-home pay cut? Hell, it's only 3%, right?
I don't know any business owner that like to eat CC fees, I sure don't. 3-4% at the end of the month adds up quick. Don't even mention a return/refund, those could eat up 10% of the total, what customer wants to eat that 10%?
I'm in the process of looking for another CC company, with a lower fee...
I'm in the process of looking for another CC company, with a lower fee...
It's called the cost of doing business. What's next? I gotta pay a quarter to turn the lights on to see the product? Or pay per sheet for toilet paper I might use?
I'm not buying it, which is why I shop online and don't pay an extra 3%.
I'm not buying it, which is why I shop online and don't pay an extra 3%.
This is how quite a few places go. They charge you the 3/4/5% anyways, but give a 'cash discount'. Smoke and mirrors.
Speaking as a consumer - I run EVERYTHING off credit cards in my household (bills, gas, food , etc). Typically for me if I can
not pay for it with a CC or PayPal - I move along and find the "next" deal. With that said I have paid for Smith services
with cash/check but that was a rare event. I have been to some gun shows where I will see signs that CC is an extra fee,
sometimes that can be negotiated - other times not so much - but then I usually walk from the extra fees. So for me
a merchant NOT accepting CC would be a big deal and make it hard for me to do business with.
not pay for it with a CC or PayPal - I move along and find the "next" deal. With that said I have paid for Smith services
with cash/check but that was a rare event. I have been to some gun shows where I will see signs that CC is an extra fee,
sometimes that can be negotiated - other times not so much - but then I usually walk from the extra fees. So for me
a merchant NOT accepting CC would be a big deal and make it hard for me to do business with.
I don't think some of you get it. You're paying the 1 to 3% automatically anytime you buy from retailers that take credit cards wether you pay with cash or credit. It's worked into the price. Retailers can't afford to pay it for you, and they take the loss.
How do you think that "cost of doing business" gets covered? Sure, they could hide it and raise the price 3% and profit that overage on cash sales. They could raise the prices 3% and offer a cash discount. They could do what they are doing and let you, the consumer know what the CC charges them for a fee. At the end of the day, be it Walmart or your local gun shop, you the consumer are the one that pays for the CC fees.
That upfront charge is just the start of the issue. My wife owns her own business and not only are the routine credit card fees an issue, these new "cash back rewards" cards are also screwing us. Yes, it's great to purchase something and get 1-3 percent cash back but who do you think pays for the cash back you get? It's not the credit card company, it's the business where you purchased the item. We receive a bill every month that shows the number of cards used with cash back rewards and the amount we owe to merchant services to cover this cost. In turn, merchant services takes their cut and sends the rest to the credit card company who takes their cut and returns the rest to the card holder. A major F'n scam if you ask me but that's how it is. We are thinking of adding in a price increase of another 3% just to cover these additional costs for people who use these cards.
I'll take this bait.
Autoparts. A $214.00 Optima Battery at a parts store is suddenly $360.00 at a garage. That's just at a true 40% markup.
Gunparts. A $350 barrel that costs an extra $20 to ship is now $698.00 with a true 40% markup.
Tell ya what, if you want to pay almost $700 for a barrel or an extra 150 some odd bucks for a battery and convince every other gun enthusiast out there to do the same I'll be the first in line to drop my fee.
You PAY that fee everytime you use your card buddy. Overhead costs are absorbed by the consumer in every form of business. Your just not seeing a line item charge for it.
So, you can see it two ways. Your way which labels us who charge this as finks. Or view it as a business who tells you up front before you spend a dime that a service fee is added to each invoice.
Either way, you use a CC your paying that fee. All the way down to a stick of gum at a 7-11.
Hope this helps.
Chad
I might consider a 40% markup on auto parts at a garage... If it was 40%.
I had my truck in an alignment shop a week back as was told that I need a new balljoint at a cost of $122. Funny thing is, the Moog part that they'e quoting me is $52 at the local parts shop. i understand how business works - you have to sell your gozinta for more than what you bought it for - but 250% markup seems a bit on the outrageous side.
Good gun businesses are hard to find - and if I can make a small purchase with a 3% markup, I'm happy to do it. If I'm making a four figure purchase, I've already thought it through and I'll pay with a check to ensure that paper trail exists, and to 'do my part' to ensure my gun shop is going to be around the next time I'm needing a new gozinta.
I had my truck in an alignment shop a week back as was told that I need a new balljoint at a cost of $122. Funny thing is, the Moog part that they'e quoting me is $52 at the local parts shop. i understand how business works - you have to sell your gozinta for more than what you bought it for - but 250% markup seems a bit on the outrageous side.
Good gun businesses are hard to find - and if I can make a small purchase with a 3% markup, I'm happy to do it. If I'm making a four figure purchase, I've already thought it through and I'll pay with a check to ensure that paper trail exists, and to 'do my part' to ensure my gun shop is going to be around the next time I'm needing a new gozinta.
Naturally you can run your business how you like, but it'd be a deal breaker for me. Too many other options who will take my card.
This is how I see it as well. Some mechanchants, gunsmiths, etc are honest enough to state there is a X% fee for credit card use.
You're paying for a service...if paying with a card, be prepared to still pay the same for the service with an additional fee for the use of said card.
Bottom line, convience cost money. It's the same as the $1.00 2 liter of Coke vs a 20 oz costing $1.59...gotta pay to play, kids.
If you guys' providers are charging you a 3% service fee, you need to get a more competitive provider. 1.5% is more the norm these days.
As for charging it to the consumer- it's generally a violation of your provider agreement to levy a charge on the user. The way around it of course would be to factor the fee into your service and offer a cash discount if need be.
As for charging it to the consumer- it's generally a violation of your provider agreement to levy a charge on the user. The way around it of course would be to factor the fee into your service and offer a cash discount if need be.
Sure you can ask I will try keep it short. Basically I just had funds from a gun sale put on hold from the bank handling my merchant account. I have never had a charge back or any type of issue ever and I have a high credit score and the sale was well within the limit of my merchant account. After contacting my merchant rep and the bank I could not get a straight answer to why the funds were held up. I provided all the documentation they requested and the funds were still delayed. I finally got the funds yesterday after 2 weeks of going back and forth and they charged me a fee to hold my funds and took that out of the transfer. After having the conversations I did with the bank they are not firearm friendly so doing business with them is basically cutting my own throat. I have requested my account be closed and yes STR it does feel damn good to make that request.
I was going to sign up with another bank and they wanted me to put their disclaimer on my website and want it to look a certain way and want my customer’s to sign their waiver when a sale is made and this and that and it is getting to the point that it is not worth it. Not to upset anyone but if you are saying just get another bank and find a more competitive bank you know not what you speak. There is a reason Kelly McMillan started offering merchant services because there are very few banks that will even do business with you if you are involved with Firearms. So if a company the size of McMillan was having trouble getting merchant services how do you think a small shop is fairing with getting merchant services and an affordable one? You just do not call up any credit card company and open an account with them 99% will say you are high risk because you deal with Firearms and send you packing. Just like you do not call up any Insurance company and get Gunsmith Liability Insurance again 99% of the companies will send you packing.
There might be plenty of providers out there for regular merchants but there are not very many out there that will do business with a gun shop or gunsmith.
There are only 2 I know of and that's.
McMillan Merchant solutions and Payment Alliance.
I've been using Payment Alliance for several years now and have had zero issues with them.
Your also not likely to get 1.5% if the card isn't swiped and if it's a rewards card. I'd imagine a lot of smiths here don't ever meet their customers face to face to run their card. In my business I have a card in hand less than 1% of the time so I pay roughly 3%.
They are good with businesses that have a small number of transactions per week and they are 2A friendly. Pricing is very competitive and they have a plug in interface to work with QuickBooks.
NRA Business Alliance Endorsed Credit Card Processing - Payment Alliance International
NRA Business Alliance Endorsed Credit Card Processing - Payment Alliance International
I helped a well known(Non SH IP so no reference for them) get started online and they use PAI and have had 0 issues. In fact PAI automatically gave them a better rate when they broke a certain threshold. No paperwork required.
At one of the larger gunshops in my area you are greeted by a sign as you walk in and again at the register that all prices are for cash, any other form of payment is subject to 3% added to the total. Judging by their location and the amount of customers at any given time they are doing fine. But they don't have a online component. If your customers walk in I don’t see it affecting sales... Most shops around here also offer a 90 day layaway.
CC or not, it’s not a deal breaker for me when I walk in your door.
I want to chime in as a complete consumer.
When I pay with a credit card, even if it draws directly from my checking, I get certain protections. In order to obtain Merchant services the business has to have good credit and be in good standing with Visa, Mastercard, etc. Without this, I just send my money in and hope for the best? Really?
Should the deal go south on me, as a consumer I can look to my bank to recover my funds. Let us say that the business tries to take unreasonable measures to extract money illegally from the consumer, the bank moves in and protects the consumer.
My example: I purchased an airline ticket, which I paid extra to make it refundable. When I flew half the flight miles (one way) I then requested a refund for half. They made up some rule about only giving me 25%, something that was NEVER shown to me when I purchased the ticket. I disputed the charges through the credit card bank and I received half of my funds in about 15 days. The business was unable to argue out of my refund and so I got my rightfully owed money back. Had I not used a credit card, I would have been forced to explore costly litigation.
If a business does not have a credit card, then I wonder. If they want to charge me 3%, that is just petty. I will likely move on to another business. When businesses feel that are superior to their customers, it is usually a sign of the end for that business. Remember kids, if you screw over your customers, they will not visit you in return. The 3% "up charge" is rubbing your customers the wrong way. And when I show my business, it usually is a lot of money. Think $10,000 of US Dollars. Hit me up for 3%, you will lose more than that the next time. 3% of $0.0 is still $0.0.
When I pay with a credit card, even if it draws directly from my checking, I get certain protections. In order to obtain Merchant services the business has to have good credit and be in good standing with Visa, Mastercard, etc. Without this, I just send my money in and hope for the best? Really?
Should the deal go south on me, as a consumer I can look to my bank to recover my funds. Let us say that the business tries to take unreasonable measures to extract money illegally from the consumer, the bank moves in and protects the consumer.
My example: I purchased an airline ticket, which I paid extra to make it refundable. When I flew half the flight miles (one way) I then requested a refund for half. They made up some rule about only giving me 25%, something that was NEVER shown to me when I purchased the ticket. I disputed the charges through the credit card bank and I received half of my funds in about 15 days. The business was unable to argue out of my refund and so I got my rightfully owed money back. Had I not used a credit card, I would have been forced to explore costly litigation.
If a business does not have a credit card, then I wonder. If they want to charge me 3%, that is just petty. I will likely move on to another business. When businesses feel that are superior to their customers, it is usually a sign of the end for that business. Remember kids, if you screw over your customers, they will not visit you in return. The 3% "up charge" is rubbing your customers the wrong way. And when I show my business, it usually is a lot of money. Think $10,000 of US Dollars. Hit me up for 3%, you will lose more than that the next time. 3% of $0.0 is still $0.0.
This thread has blossomed. I accept cc's with a fee. I ask my customers to NOT use a cc. A serious customer looking to spend 2 - 8 thousand on a rifle that is ordered ahead of time either doesn't mind the fees or the shrewd ones send me a check (cash discount). If they are worried over me ripping them off..........this is not a click and buy situation. They send earnest money (deposit). They get updates (ad nauseum), and shoot one holers (typical). If they need to hide money from their wife, don't want to use liquid assests, etc., thats their business but the cc companies rape the merchant.
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While I understand the dislike for the fees charged to merchants by their payment processors, I would like to provide a little insight from the processor perspective.
My day job is with a payment processor. Yes, we charge a 3% fee on your transactions (or whatever fee is negotiated in your contract). This isn't because we dislike guns - many of us love guns and have made purchases from vendors who post here (LongRifles Inc. for example). Of that 3%, 1.5% automatically goes to MC/Visa. The other 1.5% covers things like Loss Prevention (making sure the card used isn't stolen), the fees we pay your bank to ACH (electronically deposit) the money into your account, and to pay people to prepare reports for you and answer your phone calls. Our business is based on pennies and volume and not high fee %'s.
Offering a cash discount is a very viable option if you do not want to pay processor fees. Adding a surcharge to your customer's total is technically a violation of most processor contracts which is why it is better to offer a cash discount. As a merchant (small business of my own), I hate the fees but they are a necessary evil if I want to be able to sell merchandise online. I factor this into the price just like the cost of the materials I use. And as a consumer, I hate to carry cash because there is nothing that can be done if my purse is stolen.
If you are not happy with your processor, send a PM and I will see if we can hook you up with someone more gun friendly.
(Mrs.) Skyesdad aka Skyesmom
My day job is with a payment processor. Yes, we charge a 3% fee on your transactions (or whatever fee is negotiated in your contract). This isn't because we dislike guns - many of us love guns and have made purchases from vendors who post here (LongRifles Inc. for example). Of that 3%, 1.5% automatically goes to MC/Visa. The other 1.5% covers things like Loss Prevention (making sure the card used isn't stolen), the fees we pay your bank to ACH (electronically deposit) the money into your account, and to pay people to prepare reports for you and answer your phone calls. Our business is based on pennies and volume and not high fee %'s.
Offering a cash discount is a very viable option if you do not want to pay processor fees. Adding a surcharge to your customer's total is technically a violation of most processor contracts which is why it is better to offer a cash discount. As a merchant (small business of my own), I hate the fees but they are a necessary evil if I want to be able to sell merchandise online. I factor this into the price just like the cost of the materials I use. And as a consumer, I hate to carry cash because there is nothing that can be done if my purse is stolen.
If you are not happy with your processor, send a PM and I will see if we can hook you up with someone more gun friendly.
(Mrs.) Skyesdad aka Skyesmom
what makes you think you don't pay that 3% because you "shop on line"?
when you buy gas you pay the 3%, food, clothes, every thing it's rolled in to the cost period!
and because YOU use a cc everybody pays it if they use cash or not.
O thats right, its the cost of doing business, thinking like this is part of the problem with the economy in this country
you just don't get it!
As a buyer I don't mind using a check/cash/USPS MO at all. Of course that is only with vendors that I am comfortable with. I had no qualms about sending checks/cash to Sport Optics, Robert Gradous, Joe Collier, Liberty Optics, Ryker Arms, Bugholes, Manners, etc. as my discussions with these vendors/smiths alleviated any concerns I had about their integrity. I was/am confident they weren't/aren't going to screw me over.
The only times I use a credit card for a gun related purchase is if I need it *NOW* and can't wait for the check to clear or the USPS MO to arrive prior to shipment. This has happened with local matches, hunting trips, as well as living in a hotel while gathering components. Otherwise I find a vendor (usually from here) and wait.
The only times I use a credit card for a gun related purchase is if I need it *NOW* and can't wait for the check to clear or the USPS MO to arrive prior to shipment. This has happened with local matches, hunting trips, as well as living in a hotel while gathering components. Otherwise I find a vendor (usually from here) and wait.
It is your money. It is your rifle. It is your right to walk away. Its also my right to explain to you that in a tight margins market, what I'm being charged for you to use your CC. If you don't like it I would expect you to walk away.
Where's the beating a dead horse gif at?
It's when I can buy something online and the exact same item is at my lgs is the same price (usually more) but if I pay with my card it costs me an 3%. That is what pisses me off. I don't roll around town with hundreds of dollars in my wallet and I don't know exactly how much I need with me when I go out. However my bank account is sufficient enough to cover whatever I need to get. So I carry one card that has a ton of money attached to it. And if a merchant wants me to pay an extra 3% to use it, then I just don't buy from them.
...But YOU ARE paying it. The are charging every customer it, just not advertising it. Remember, almost all, if not all of your internet store's sales are done with CC.
You do get that the lgs charges an extra 3% over everyone else if the charges are included into the price? Here's an example: barrel #1 @ midway= $300. Same barrel @ lgs =300+3%. That is crap.
Are you seriously comparing Midway to a LGS? Hate to break it to you but you the consumer ARE paying the CC fees at Midway too.
That's fine. It's still cheaper than local. And I just picked midway as an example. You just feel free to over pay for stuff. I'm not going to do it.
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