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Leupold CDS Dial for CCI Standard?
- Thread starter mn_308
- Start date
Why would you ever want anything in MOA, let alone buying a fixed measurement item for a setting where the measurements needed change based on environmentals.
The CDS system is a perfect example of Leupold still being stuck in the 1990s.
The CDS system is a perfect example of Leupold still being stuck in the 1990s.
The CDS system sells a shit ton of scopes for them to people who don't understand ballistics and are sold on the idea that if they just buy a CDS scope they don't have to learn or understand ballistics. I guarantee their sales would go way down if they didn't offer it because of that.
@mn_308 - What are you using this 22 for? How far are you shooting, how large are the targets, etc? You could probably get a CDS dial that would work roughly for what you're doing. It's accuracy will change with weather conditions, which ammo you shoot, and possibly with lot differences of the same ammo. The most accurate path would be to just use a MOA dial and validated DOPE and a solid ballistic calculator. That will be much more flexible in different weather conditions and with different ammo. All of this is assuming the scope tracks correctly in the first place which is far from a guarantee.
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BDC setups suck. Why would you want an optic slaved to only one gun or ammo?
Furthermore, you will be dialing (2 or 5 or 7) + a click or two or - a click or two on the bdc knob for the changes in environment. You may as well just know the sight setting in MOA and dial to it as it changes throughout the year.
If your sight settings didn't change with environment, temp, lot of ammo, etc......BDC type setups would be perfect. But if you gotta keep track to add/subtract clicks....you may as well know the actual dope setting and dial it on.
Basic matching turrets to reticle setups are infinitely more flexible day to day....ammo to ammo.....and gun to gun.
Furthermore, you will be dialing (2 or 5 or 7) + a click or two or - a click or two on the bdc knob for the changes in environment. You may as well just know the sight setting in MOA and dial to it as it changes throughout the year.
If your sight settings didn't change with environment, temp, lot of ammo, etc......BDC type setups would be perfect. But if you gotta keep track to add/subtract clicks....you may as well know the actual dope setting and dial it on.
Basic matching turrets to reticle setups are infinitely more flexible day to day....ammo to ammo.....and gun to gun.
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Just playing around and volume plinking... Steel out to ~300yd Max. Plate sizes vary. Rifle is a Bergara BXR002
So not a particularly precise shooting weapon i'd assume. If you don't have a kestrel or range finder with ballistic calculator on board, a CDS might get you close for spraying with 22. Not what I'd be interested in but it might fit the bill for you. You'd be well suited to get actual velocity of a particular ammo and actual tested BC of the bullet used before sending in for a dial and then buy a shit ton of that ammo. It's going to vary considerably if you just shoot whatever common blaster ammo you can find on the shelf.
Sry, not trying to be a dick, but it is really not a good system and is very outdated. As suggested above get a good standard adjustment scope and be done.
As others have already stated, save yourself the heartache. Just get a decent ffp scope with a reticle you like and learn the dope.
If you're just starting in on this sort of thing go straight to a scope in mils. I broke into this around a bunch of nra service rifle shooters and thus I got started in moa and now I'm too deep in scopes to go back. Plus, most people in my group that I shoot with shoot moa. It's two different systems that achieve the same goal but the common tongue is mils.
If you're just starting in on this sort of thing go straight to a scope in mils. I broke into this around a bunch of nra service rifle shooters and thus I got started in moa and now I'm too deep in scopes to go back. Plus, most people in my group that I shoot with shoot moa. It's two different systems that achieve the same goal but the common tongue is mils.
I don’t love the idea of cds for rimfire cause your dope changes so rapidly and precise adjustments are needed. However I think the cds for the average centerfire rifle hunter is exceptional. If you put in the right info then there very accurate. I’ve set up two cds rifles for friends who just want to hunt out to 400yds or so for whitetail and the dials are dead on. For the competitor or guys that are into shooting at a different knowledge level then yes dialing is probably better for them. To say the cds system is stuck in the 90s is a ridiculous statement since for the masses with the right input it is fantastic.
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It is a system stuck in the 90s.
It sucks.
You say that it is fantastic with the right input. Well, that's that's hell of a caveat.
The EXACT problem with the system is that most times the unchangeable input that made the dial is no longer accurate.
You say it is good for the masses. The masses vote Democrat most of the time. Why the fuck would I care what the masses like?
Agree. For hunting out to appx 400 yds here in Pa, all of mine have been dead on on my centerfires. For a farm rimfire, I have almost bought a CDS scope to put on a 22 many times (and most likely would be using CCI-SV like the OP). Minute of a groundhog... Following...
I know this will sound crazy, but you can do both! You can start by putting a mill scope on a PRS rifle, learn it, and know how easy it is.
And friends don't let friends buy moa. But that's for another day....
I see both sides. You (and I) purist find the BDC type stuff way too simple and full of errors. Yet for someone who really does not want to learn a lot it is not a bad choice. Not everyone who drives needs to be a certified NASCAR driver. Some folks just want to go to the store.
Good lord, the haters in this place. I have a CDS and I love it, for .308 168 FGMM. It works great. All it is dial markings for dope for that cartridge. You don't have to use it, you can just use the actual MOA instead, since the turret is marked with both. I have it on a rifle that I mostly shoot 168 FGMM...
Would I buy another, probably not, but I think they are great systems for one rifle/one caliber hunting, since it is just one more fall back option, and its pretty quick/easy if you want to bother to train on it.
Having said all of that, I shoot almost exclusively CCI SV for rimfire, and the velocity spread is so extreme, that I wouldn't bother trying to get a CDS turret for it. I think for me across 10 rounds I often have a spread of 50-60 FPS, sometimes more. Plus you need to dial A LOT if you are talking shots at distance, so the markings would get pretty silly, pretty fast.
Would I buy another, probably not, but I think they are great systems for one rifle/one caliber hunting, since it is just one more fall back option, and its pretty quick/easy if you want to bother to train on it.
Having said all of that, I shoot almost exclusively CCI SV for rimfire, and the velocity spread is so extreme, that I wouldn't bother trying to get a CDS turret for it. I think for me across 10 rounds I often have a spread of 50-60 FPS, sometimes more. Plus you need to dial A LOT if you are talking shots at distance, so the markings would get pretty silly, pretty fast.
And a reticle can be used the same if you know your dope, you don't have to dial. But you also know that if you hold a certain amount you will will hit at a given distance and you get to decide what that is, where that hold is on the CDS reticle is fixed and you have to figure out the distance for each hold. Change the ammo, learn new distances for those holds.
Learn to dial and hold and you have the best of both worlds. Now if paper plate accuracy is good enough at 400 yards, it doesn't matter.
What he said is correct. He didn’t cuddle first, but the message is still solid. CDS turrets are silly, like eating the same thing forever because you like it today. MOA is like wearing your favourite pants from your elementary school days. Keeps your ass out of the breeze, but there comes a time to grow past the avengers pattern.
Here is my thought - Not sure CDS dial would be beneficial for a 22LR - since the ammo is not really that consistent from one brick to the next even with high price match ammo like Lapua and Ely you can have inconsistency that impacts POA/POI from one lot to the next.
Leupold will cut a new turret with current data at any time. For a reasonable fee. I've watched guys gather data for 2 loads, 2 turrets needed, one free.
CDS is not for me either.
Hang around hunters, you learn the kill zone on an elk is at least 20x20", at any distance. Then listen to the bullshit that hitting an elk square in the shoulder with a Berger didn't end so well.
Will leupold cut me a new dial while on an elk hunt and deliver it to me in the forest in under 5 minutes?
If no, then CDS is an inferior system.
If no, then CDS is an inferior system.
I didn't want to enter this shit show, lol. I don't care if you shoot moa, or want a CDS turret, your call.
Most guys that I run across that want a CDS system are guys who want to push the easy button and really don't care if they learn.
You say, volume plinking, to 300 yards. Shooting is a hobby, and 300 yards in stiff winds can be challenging, and the bulk of 22LR rifles in the US are may not be up to the task of attaining what guys here in this forum would consider acceptable accuracy.
My suggestion is buy a scope with a decent reticle, mil or moa, learn it. Gather data on your ammo in differing conditions. Learn the Game, the more you know, and understand, the more you stack the odds in your favor on daily outings. I don't know a single person who if they actually learn on their own, with minor assistance, aren't happier about the whole situation.
Challenge yourself and learn, I am assuming now, but I think you will be happier.
How many misses will you need to decide that a new turret is necessary? How far are you shooting in this forest?
I'm no advocate for CDS systems, but have seen them work, if I recall, most still have 1/4 moa clicks so someone with your intelligence, should be able to adapt on the fly and make it work!
I shoot a lot of Leupold scopes. For PRS style shooting, I use MOA with FFP. Hard to consider much of anything else. For hunting, dial simply does not matter. I keep my shots in the range I am comfortable with. My main hunting rifles are sighted in at 200 yards and I do not take shots past 250 with the .25-06 and 50 with either of our hunting .22’s. (200 with the Whelen). These distances do not require holdovers, so dialing is not required. The Leupolds work fine and have decent enough glass for this purpose. (I really like the VX5 on the Vanguard, costing almost three times as much as the rifle)
My point, If hunters are reasonable with their real life limits, a lot of dialing is not necessary. I realize that exceptional hunters are good to 400-500 yards. Of course shooting from a stand with a good bench rest inside and a deer willing to stand while I make sure my hold is correct, would make me a 600-700 yard hunter. haven’t seen this yet and doubtful I ever will. But, I see far too many tv shows with deer/elk being taken out to ranges of 900 to a 1000 and the deer when shot, hit the ground so hard, they bounce. Well maybe so, maybe not.
Once I watched one of these 900 yard marvels drop a deer and yes he literally bounced, because he fell so hard from the shot. 900+ yards. Go one half hour forward. New show, different sponsers, see an ad. Guess what? same deer, same bounce. Totally different products, rifle and presumably shooter. Seems stock pictures of deer are a regular occurrence. I always say, go with the sure shot, let the tv marvels brag about their “impossible” shots. I truly believe, they are impossible. Better to have a deer in the bag than a couple days scouring the brush, trying to find a wounded animal.
My point, If hunters are reasonable with their real life limits, a lot of dialing is not necessary. I realize that exceptional hunters are good to 400-500 yards. Of course shooting from a stand with a good bench rest inside and a deer willing to stand while I make sure my hold is correct, would make me a 600-700 yard hunter. haven’t seen this yet and doubtful I ever will. But, I see far too many tv shows with deer/elk being taken out to ranges of 900 to a 1000 and the deer when shot, hit the ground so hard, they bounce. Well maybe so, maybe not.
Once I watched one of these 900 yard marvels drop a deer and yes he literally bounced, because he fell so hard from the shot. 900+ yards. Go one half hour forward. New show, different sponsers, see an ad. Guess what? same deer, same bounce. Totally different products, rifle and presumably shooter. Seems stock pictures of deer are a regular occurrence. I always say, go with the sure shot, let the tv marvels brag about their “impossible” shots. I truly believe, they are impossible. Better to have a deer in the bag than a couple days scouring the brush, trying to find a wounded animal.
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Here is your answer for that issue, put in your turret data and it gives you a shoot to range adjusting for your atmospherics. Not that fucking hard.
CDS and similar systems works for guys that hunt the same general area, in the same general weather, with the same rifle and ammo year in and year out. I hunt in PA, our farthest shot is 600 yards, elevation difference is a couple hundred feet at best and the gambit of weather will change my 600 yard poi by 3” on my 18” 6.5 PRC. Split the difference and your 1.5” off due to weather, well within the vital zone of a whitetail.
Before I got into shooting pretty much everyone in camp used the same rifle and ammo that they had been using for 20+ years. I may switch rifles/scopes/bullets every year but many guys pick something that works and stay with it for decades. The CDS is primarily for guys like that.
And for the record I don’t use any CDS turrets as I run NX8’s on my hunting guns. The reticle gives me a PBR of +/- 2 MOA out to 330 yards for the center of the reticle with 4, 7 and 10 MOA giving me 400, 500 and 600 yards.
I think cds system is great depending on your needs.
I also think moa is absolutely fine no different from mils in terms of accuracy. Get whatever you prefer.
For hunting squirells and p dogs I use cds all day with incredible accuracy.
Many people will say mils or bust I disagree but I digress. I think moa is more accurate at long distance due to the fact most scopes dial .25 moa or .1 mil so moa allows smaller corrections and allow me better accuracy.
For 22 I like the cds for hunting or plinking and dial with exact weather for extreme long range or extreme accuracy.
I also think moa is absolutely fine no different from mils in terms of accuracy. Get whatever you prefer.
For hunting squirells and p dogs I use cds all day with incredible accuracy.
Many people will say mils or bust I disagree but I digress. I think moa is more accurate at long distance due to the fact most scopes dial .25 moa or .1 mil so moa allows smaller corrections and allow me better accuracy.
For 22 I like the cds for hunting or plinking and dial with exact weather for extreme long range or extreme accuracy.
I am asking sincerely here, you say extreme long range 22LR. Aren't most Leupold CDS systems based off their ZL or ZL2 turrets? Where the scope can have X amount of total travel, yet on ZL, only 14 moa available, or ZL 2 with 38 moa available to you, no matter where in the scheme of things the reticle is zeroed at.
Here, with 38 moa available, you'd tap out at around 265 yards, target ammo, and be into an inbred, full retard look at me go holdover if shooting past this.
