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Rifle Scopes Liberty Optics and PST's
- Thread starter KeithR41
- Start date
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
There's a Guy on here that said that, not only is his 4-16ffp on the way from them but he also only paid $739 for it. I'm wondering if anyone's heard anything from swfa. ..
There's a Guy on here that said that, not only is his 4-16ffp on the way from them but he also only paid $739 for it. I'm wondering if anyone's heard anything from swfa. ..
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Scott contacted me earlier this week about my place on his waiting list. He says his shipment is coming.
SWFA has been real quiet, even on their own forum.
Scott contacted me earlier this week about my place on his waiting list. He says his shipment is coming.
SWFA has been real quiet, even on their own forum.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
SWFA probably wants to lay low until they see just how many scopes arrive. The limited supplies will cause some issues with people on waiting lists becoming frustrated if they are not among the first ones to receive their scopes. I am sure that once they actually receive them they will contact the parties that have pre-ordered and start shipping.
SWFA probably wants to lay low until they see just how many scopes arrive. The limited supplies will cause some issues with people on waiting lists becoming frustrated if they are not among the first ones to receive their scopes. I am sure that once they actually receive them they will contact the parties that have pre-ordered and start shipping.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm wondering if anyone's heard anything from swfa. .. </div></div>
Check your email. I got an email Monday from them (SWFA) saying my 6-24 had gone into back order. I was going to contact them to see if I why the status changed since I thought it was already on back order, but I figured I would just wait it out. Hopefully we'll hear from them soon..
Anyone else get this email?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm wondering if anyone's heard anything from swfa. .. </div></div>
Check your email. I got an email Monday from them (SWFA) saying my 6-24 had gone into back order. I was going to contact them to see if I why the status changed since I thought it was already on back order, but I figured I would just wait it out. Hopefully we'll hear from them soon..
Anyone else get this email?
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Back to Liberty Optics,
I'm sure Scott will come through. He's probably just a little busy and probably like SWFA, doesn't want to say anything until the scopes are in hand. I'm getting the feeling that not every model was shipped in the first wave of shipments. That might explain why some have been contacted and some haven't.
I've been waiting since Dec. 6th when I requested one from Scott. It is frustrating to hear that others are getting the ones they requested and the frenzy surrounding that has ensued. Yet, I have confidence with Scott and Liberty Optics.
It probably would have been best if all the vendors waited until they new exactly what they had on hand and clearly and cleanly put that information on here.
mike
Back to Liberty Optics,
I'm sure Scott will come through. He's probably just a little busy and probably like SWFA, doesn't want to say anything until the scopes are in hand. I'm getting the feeling that not every model was shipped in the first wave of shipments. That might explain why some have been contacted and some haven't.
I've been waiting since Dec. 6th when I requested one from Scott. It is frustrating to hear that others are getting the ones they requested and the frenzy surrounding that has ensued. Yet, I have confidence with Scott and Liberty Optics.
It probably would have been best if all the vendors waited until they new exactly what they had on hand and clearly and cleanly put that information on here.
mike
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeithR41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone heard from Liberty Optics yet regarding the PST's.
KeithR41 </div></div>
Scott with Liberty Optics contacted me two days ago to make sure I still wanted the one I ordered back in December. They told me the scopes were on there way.
Also, the price LO gave me for the scope was better than what I've seen others are asking for them....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeithR41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone heard from Liberty Optics yet regarding the PST's.
KeithR41 </div></div>
Scott with Liberty Optics contacted me two days ago to make sure I still wanted the one I ordered back in December. They told me the scopes were on there way.
Also, the price LO gave me for the scope was better than what I've seen others are asking for them....
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Why would there be a "stink" raised if one vendor sells a product for less money than another? It happens all the time...at the gas pump, grocery store, and many other day-to-day retailers, brick and mortar and on-line. Shop around to find a price that suits you. Make a phone call...hint.
The minimum advertised price (MAP) is set by the manufacture but the actual seller can sell it for whatever profit margin they need to get/stay in business.
Thank God for a free market. Quit whining.
Why would there be a "stink" raised if one vendor sells a product for less money than another? It happens all the time...at the gas pump, grocery store, and many other day-to-day retailers, brick and mortar and on-line. Shop around to find a price that suits you. Make a phone call...hint.
The minimum advertised price (MAP) is set by the manufacture but the actual seller can sell it for whatever profit margin they need to get/stay in business.
Thank God for a free market. Quit whining.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
And to add to this:
Price matching is done based on advertised price...read the fine print on any company that offers a match, including SWFA.
Posting an invoice wont do it.
And to add to this:
Price matching is done based on advertised price...read the fine print on any company that offers a match, including SWFA.
Posting an invoice wont do it.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Based on whats happened in the past and whats been said, I not so sure we should be discussing what vendors, that sell MAP priced products, sell their product for. It kinda goes against the MAP principle and could have a negative affect on the pricing we are lucky enough to get.
If you have a question or a problem, take it up with the Vendor individually.
Mike
Based on whats happened in the past and whats been said, I not so sure we should be discussing what vendors, that sell MAP priced products, sell their product for. It kinda goes against the MAP principle and could have a negative affect on the pricing we are lucky enough to get.
If you have a question or a problem, take it up with the Vendor individually.
Mike
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1k3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on whats happened in the past and whats been said, I not so sure we should be discussing what vendors, that sell MAP priced products, sell their product for. It kinda goes against the MAP principle and could have a negative affect on the pricing we are lucky enough to get.
If you have a question or a problem, take it up with the Vendor individually.
Mike </div></div>
THIS! All this kind of talk will do in the end (whether it is an accurate reflection of the circumstances/events or not) is screw all of us, not to mention Scott who has always been a loyal supporter of this forum and its membership.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1k3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on whats happened in the past and whats been said, I not so sure we should be discussing what vendors, that sell MAP priced products, sell their product for. It kinda goes against the MAP principle and could have a negative affect on the pricing we are lucky enough to get.
If you have a question or a problem, take it up with the Vendor individually.
Mike </div></div>
THIS! All this kind of talk will do in the end (whether it is an accurate reflection of the circumstances/events or not) is screw all of us, not to mention Scott who has always been a loyal supporter of this forum and its membership.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Thanks guys.
Waiting for the Fedex truck, any minute now.
We are getting the tiny teaser like everyone else who's lucky enough to get their hands on one.
Just a friendly reminder, that all of this public pricing talk and discussion of posting invoices will have a corrosive effect on conducting business here and I assure you this will not have any benefits whatsoever. There are thousands of eyes here and this type of stuff stokes competitive and political fires and creates issues. You are all free men but I ask that you think before you type.
Thanks,
Scott
Thanks guys.
Waiting for the Fedex truck, any minute now.
We are getting the tiny teaser like everyone else who's lucky enough to get their hands on one.
Just a friendly reminder, that all of this public pricing talk and discussion of posting invoices will have a corrosive effect on conducting business here and I assure you this will not have any benefits whatsoever. There are thousands of eyes here and this type of stuff stokes competitive and political fires and creates issues. You are all free men but I ask that you think before you type.
Thanks,
Scott
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1k3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on whats happened in the past and whats been said, I not so sure we should be discussing what vendors, that sell MAP priced products, sell their product for. It kinda goes against the MAP principle and could have a negative affect on the pricing we are lucky enough to get.
If you have a question or a problem, take it up with the Vendor individually.
Mike </div></div>
QFT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1k3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on whats happened in the past and whats been said, I not so sure we should be discussing what vendors, that sell MAP priced products, sell their product for. It kinda goes against the MAP principle and could have a negative affect on the pricing we are lucky enough to get.
If you have a question or a problem, take it up with the Vendor individually.
Mike </div></div>
QFT
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RHutch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The minimum advertised price (MAP) is set by the manufacture but the actual seller can sell it for whatever profit margin they need to get/stay in business.
</div></div>
If only this were true. Try to be a retailer for certain companies and offer their products for less than retail and see what happens when you try to reorder. Your order gets lost mysteriously, they are out of stock everytime you contact them, etc, etc.
You are right that there is not legal issue with a retailer selling a product for what ever they feel is OK with them, but there are ways that manufacturers make sure that they weed these vendors out in short order. That is why most retailers of certain manufacturers never advertise any prices less than list. They will not be retailers of those products for very long......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RHutch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The minimum advertised price (MAP) is set by the manufacture but the actual seller can sell it for whatever profit margin they need to get/stay in business.
</div></div>
If only this were true. Try to be a retailer for certain companies and offer their products for less than retail and see what happens when you try to reorder. Your order gets lost mysteriously, they are out of stock everytime you contact them, etc, etc.
You are right that there is not legal issue with a retailer selling a product for what ever they feel is OK with them, but there are ways that manufacturers make sure that they weed these vendors out in short order. That is why most retailers of certain manufacturers never advertise any prices less than list. They will not be retailers of those products for very long......
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys.
Waiting for the Fedex truck, any minute now.
We are getting the tiny teaser like everyone else who's lucky enough to get their hands on one.
Just a friendly reminder, that all of this public pricing talk and discussion of posting invoices will have a corrosive effect on conducting business here and I assure you this will not have any benefits whatsoever. There are thousands of eyes here and this type of stuff stokes competitive and political fires and creates issues. You are all free men but I ask that you think before you type.
Thanks,
Scott </div></div>
I agree with Scott on this about publishing your pricing as in the end it will do no one any good but create a mixed bag of feelings. There are many fine vendors/distributors here on the hide, each trying to make a living and provide the highest customer support they can. It’s not always about getting the lowest possible price on an item; it also comes down to the customer support you’ll receive.
I’m sure if you purchased your new Vortex through one of the hide’s distributors they have given you a great deal that will come with excellent customer support if something goes wrong. As I tell my kids, my money spends anywhere…meaning the person who offers me the best possible deal with the best customer support. As with any free market, if you feel you didn’t get what you wanted or the support you thought you should have received there’s someone else waiting to earn your business. Also you had a lot of time to shop your deal around before making your purchase.
Just my $0.02 worth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys.
Waiting for the Fedex truck, any minute now.
We are getting the tiny teaser like everyone else who's lucky enough to get their hands on one.
Just a friendly reminder, that all of this public pricing talk and discussion of posting invoices will have a corrosive effect on conducting business here and I assure you this will not have any benefits whatsoever. There are thousands of eyes here and this type of stuff stokes competitive and political fires and creates issues. You are all free men but I ask that you think before you type.
Thanks,
Scott </div></div>
I agree with Scott on this about publishing your pricing as in the end it will do no one any good but create a mixed bag of feelings. There are many fine vendors/distributors here on the hide, each trying to make a living and provide the highest customer support they can. It’s not always about getting the lowest possible price on an item; it also comes down to the customer support you’ll receive.
I’m sure if you purchased your new Vortex through one of the hide’s distributors they have given you a great deal that will come with excellent customer support if something goes wrong. As I tell my kids, my money spends anywhere…meaning the person who offers me the best possible deal with the best customer support. As with any free market, if you feel you didn’t get what you wanted or the support you thought you should have received there’s someone else waiting to earn your business. Also you had a lot of time to shop your deal around before making your purchase.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
I guess I need to change my Sig Line to: Never underestimate the power of STUPID people by themselves!!!!!!
I guess I need to change my Sig Line to: Never underestimate the power of STUPID people by themselves!!!!!!
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Too late, the damage has been done.... </div></div>
I was afraid of that the second I read this (and the other) thread.
Sorry to hear it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Too late, the damage has been done.... </div></div>
I was afraid of that the second I read this (and the other) thread.
Sorry to hear it.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
This will all shake out over the weekend, and I'll know the "final answer" next week. So, stay tuned, you will know as soon as I do.
Scott
This will all shake out over the weekend, and I'll know the "final answer" next week. So, stay tuned, you will know as soon as I do.
Scott
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
I feel so badly for you Scott. Having been a retailer I also know the law and know what the manufacturers can do to you, even though its not "legal". I hope that this all washes out and you all get through it AOK. Vortex has a great ally in you and Liberty Optics!
I feel so badly for you Scott. Having been a retailer I also know the law and know what the manufacturers can do to you, even though its not "legal". I hope that this all washes out and you all get through it AOK. Vortex has a great ally in you and Liberty Optics!
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Agreed.
Vortex should also be careful about throwing their weight around on vendors. They do present a good product at a decent price but loyalty also has a price. Start hurting the vary people that promote and defend your product and things could go downhill very quickly for all.
I like Vortex but I also like Liberty Optics. Hopefully, cool level headed decisions will prevail.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I wish Scott and Vortex well. Both have helped me become a smarter and better shooter. Isn't that the point?</span>
Mike
San Angelo
Agreed.
Vortex should also be careful about throwing their weight around on vendors. They do present a good product at a decent price but loyalty also has a price. Start hurting the vary people that promote and defend your product and things could go downhill very quickly for all.
I like Vortex but I also like Liberty Optics. Hopefully, cool level headed decisions will prevail.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I wish Scott and Vortex well. Both have helped me become a smarter and better shooter. Isn't that the point?</span>
Mike
San Angelo
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.
RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Interesting and unfortunate.
I'm looking hard at the PSTs for obvious reason of the features you get for the price (assuming they are solid). However, Scott / Liberty Optics have been very good to me, and many on this forum. He's always been a man of his word and if he has in stock what I want, that's who I'm buying it from. Period. I know MANY here feel the same. Vortex would be wise to maintain a positive relationship with Scott. ...just sayin'...
Interesting and unfortunate.
I'm looking hard at the PSTs for obvious reason of the features you get for the price (assuming they are solid). However, Scott / Liberty Optics have been very good to me, and many on this forum. He's always been a man of his word and if he has in stock what I want, that's who I'm buying it from. Period. I know MANY here feel the same. Vortex would be wise to maintain a positive relationship with Scott. ...just sayin'...
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
This isn't a shot at you personally but MAP policies are most definitely price fixing.
Rather than relying on the quality and scarcity of one's product to drive pricing, the manufacturer uses strong-arm tactics to keep it's vendors pricing structures inline. Creating an artificially high price and the much sought after air of quality and prestige. Think Rolex.
SC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
This isn't a shot at you personally but MAP policies are most definitely price fixing.
Rather than relying on the quality and scarcity of one's product to drive pricing, the manufacturer uses strong-arm tactics to keep it's vendors pricing structures inline. Creating an artificially high price and the much sought after air of quality and prestige. Think Rolex.
SC
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Guys,
Thanks for the strong support and encouragement. I want to make clear at this point any changes Vortex implements will be for all dealers, not just us. I don't want to comment anymore until I have final word from Vortex.
Scott
Guys,
Thanks for the strong support and encouragement. I want to make clear at this point any changes Vortex implements will be for all dealers, not just us. I don't want to comment anymore until I have final word from Vortex.
Scott
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
I agree
The only reason Vortex is in the running is b/c of LO. Otherwise I would have gone a different direction several months ago...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting and unfortunate.
I'm looking hard at the PSTs for obvious reason of the features you get for the price (assuming they are solid). However, Scott / Liberty Optics have been very good to me, and many on this forum. He's always been a man of his word and if he has in stock what I want, that's who I'm buying it from. Period. I know MANY here feel the same. Vortex would be wise to maintain a positive relationship with Scott. ...just sayin'...
</div></div>
I agree
The only reason Vortex is in the running is b/c of LO. Otherwise I would have gone a different direction several months ago...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting and unfortunate.
I'm looking hard at the PSTs for obvious reason of the features you get for the price (assuming they are solid). However, Scott / Liberty Optics have been very good to me, and many on this forum. He's always been a man of his word and if he has in stock what I want, that's who I'm buying it from. Period. I know MANY here feel the same. Vortex would be wise to maintain a positive relationship with Scott. ...just sayin'...
</div></div>
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Glad to hear it's not targeted at you Scott, and would be just a change across the board. I'm looking hard at that scopes, and if they pan out to be what we all hope they are, I'll have one on order. I still hope they keep things reasonable, because that's the strongest selling point of this scope. You start getting greedy, and pretty soon people will just be willing to pay the extra money for something else. Either way, I'm watching all of this pretty hard.
Glad to hear it's not targeted at you Scott, and would be just a change across the board. I'm looking hard at that scopes, and if they pan out to be what we all hope they are, I'll have one on order. I still hope they keep things reasonable, because that's the strongest selling point of this scope. You start getting greedy, and pretty soon people will just be willing to pay the extra money for something else. Either way, I'm watching all of this pretty hard.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
This isn't a shot at you personally but MAP policies are most definitely price fixing.
Rather than relying on the quality and scarcity of one's product to drive pricing, the manufacturer uses strong-arm tactics to keep it's vendors pricing structures inline. Creating an artificially high price and the much sought after air of quality and prestige. Think Rolex.
SC</div></div>
Trust me, I'm not a fan of MAP. In fact, I hate it. But there are legitimate ways around it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
This isn't a shot at you personally but MAP policies are most definitely price fixing.
Rather than relying on the quality and scarcity of one's product to drive pricing, the manufacturer uses strong-arm tactics to keep it's vendors pricing structures inline. Creating an artificially high price and the much sought after air of quality and prestige. Think Rolex.
SC</div></div>
Trust me, I'm not a fan of MAP. In fact, I hate it. But there are legitimate ways around it.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing.
Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
The day I cannot buy a scope from Scott is the day i give up shooting..
The day I cannot buy a scope from Scott is the day i give up shooting..
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
This isn't a shot at you personally but MAP policies are most definitely price fixing.
Rather than relying on the quality and scarcity of one's product to drive pricing, the manufacturer uses strong-arm tactics to keep it's vendors pricing structures inline. Creating an artificially high price and the much sought after air of quality and prestige. Think Rolex.
SC</div></div>
Trust me, I'm not a fan of MAP. In fact, I hate it. But there are legitimate ways around it. </div></div>
That's good to hear. All too often I hear vendors defending these ridiculous policies because they're afraid to speak out.
I won't do business with companies that mandate and enforce vendor MAP policies unless I find a vendor willing to ignore that policy, otherwise I buy used.
SC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
This isn't a shot at you personally but MAP policies are most definitely price fixing.
Rather than relying on the quality and scarcity of one's product to drive pricing, the manufacturer uses strong-arm tactics to keep it's vendors pricing structures inline. Creating an artificially high price and the much sought after air of quality and prestige. Think Rolex.
SC</div></div>
Trust me, I'm not a fan of MAP. In fact, I hate it. But there are legitimate ways around it. </div></div>
That's good to hear. All too often I hear vendors defending these ridiculous policies because they're afraid to speak out.
I won't do business with companies that mandate and enforce vendor MAP policies unless I find a vendor willing to ignore that policy, otherwise I buy used.
SC
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
</div></div>
How's that fair? Do you expect to pay the same price per round if you buy a box of 20 vs. and entire pallet of ammo? Doubtful.
There are reasons people get discounts for buying in bulk whether it's you or I.....or Cabelas. Which do you think is easier for a manufacturer, selling 20 scopes a year to a dealer 2 at a time or selling 2000 scopes a year to a dealer in 2 major orders? Same pricing for both dealers seem fair?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
</div></div>
How's that fair? Do you expect to pay the same price per round if you buy a box of 20 vs. and entire pallet of ammo? Doubtful.
There are reasons people get discounts for buying in bulk whether it's you or I.....or Cabelas. Which do you think is easier for a manufacturer, selling 20 scopes a year to a dealer 2 at a time or selling 2000 scopes a year to a dealer in 2 major orders? Same pricing for both dealers seem fair?
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
</div></div>
How's that fair? Do you expect to pay the same price per round if you buy a box of 20 vs. and entire pallet of ammo? Doubtful.
There are reasons people get discounts for buying in bulk whether it's you or I.....or Cabelas. Which do you think is easier for a manufacturer, selling 20 scopes a year to a dealer 2 at a time or selling 2000 scopes a year to a dealer in 2 major orders? Same pricing for both dealers seem fair? </div></div>
What I'm saying is the economies of scale have already been reached by the manufacturer when they place the huge production order for their big box vendors. The margins they make on their smaller vendors are gravy.
SC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
</div></div>
How's that fair? Do you expect to pay the same price per round if you buy a box of 20 vs. and entire pallet of ammo? Doubtful.
There are reasons people get discounts for buying in bulk whether it's you or I.....or Cabelas. Which do you think is easier for a manufacturer, selling 20 scopes a year to a dealer 2 at a time or selling 2000 scopes a year to a dealer in 2 major orders? Same pricing for both dealers seem fair? </div></div>
What I'm saying is the economies of scale have already been reached by the manufacturer when they place the huge production order for their big box vendors. The margins they make on their smaller vendors are gravy.
SC
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
</div></div>
How's that fair? Do you expect to pay the same price per round if you buy a box of 20 vs. and entire pallet of ammo? Doubtful.
There are reasons people get discounts for buying in bulk whether it's you or I.....or Cabelas. Which do you think is easier for a manufacturer, selling 20 scopes a year to a dealer 2 at a time or selling 2000 scopes a year to a dealer in 2 major orders? Same pricing for both dealers seem fair? </div></div>
I know when I use to deal with aftermarket car parts the manufacturers would have different tiers of of dealers. There would be your normal dealer, like your mom and pop store, to what they call a warehouse distributor, the big boys that have massive warehouses and only sell to other smaller dealers that might not be setup factory direct or have the capital to be setup from the factory. I know that the gun industry is setup close to the same way with a couple of very large warehouse distributors pushing most of the stuff out to the smaller outfits. From what it looks like, the Hide does have some of the larger optics vendors in the shooting industry so we do benefit with lower prices.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
This is a good argument but not necessarily true. The manufacturer can choose to give the little guy the same pricing as he does the big box dealer if they choose not to it is the manufacturer squeezing the the little guy not his big-box competition.
SC
</div></div>
How's that fair? Do you expect to pay the same price per round if you buy a box of 20 vs. and entire pallet of ammo? Doubtful.
There are reasons people get discounts for buying in bulk whether it's you or I.....or Cabelas. Which do you think is easier for a manufacturer, selling 20 scopes a year to a dealer 2 at a time or selling 2000 scopes a year to a dealer in 2 major orders? Same pricing for both dealers seem fair? </div></div>
I know when I use to deal with aftermarket car parts the manufacturers would have different tiers of of dealers. There would be your normal dealer, like your mom and pop store, to what they call a warehouse distributor, the big boys that have massive warehouses and only sell to other smaller dealers that might not be setup factory direct or have the capital to be setup from the factory. I know that the gun industry is setup close to the same way with a couple of very large warehouse distributors pushing most of the stuff out to the smaller outfits. From what it looks like, the Hide does have some of the larger optics vendors in the shooting industry so we do benefit with lower prices.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
Difference being Jason, is that you don't blab all over the internet what a deal you got, naming names and all......
I never tell specifics if I get a better than MAP price from anyone, just not cool to do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
Difference being Jason, is that you don't blab all over the internet what a deal you got, naming names and all......
I never tell specifics if I get a better than MAP price from anyone, just not cool to do.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
Well, yep it was me.
Just to clear a few things up.
My original post which I have since deleted clearly said that I did not think I got any kind of special deal. I honestly thought that since I paid that much, others could do the same. I had absolutely no intention to impress anyone with any kind of imagined special status. Any attention that may have been generated I pointed to LO not me.
I just wasn't in on the plan.
I see many of you here are well versed in MAP and sales, etc.
Not only am I far removed from these concepts in what I do and have done in the past, I have never had enough interest in this stuff to study up on it. It looks like many of you live by these rules and can't imagine that others may not.
Up until today, I knew what I did was somehow wrong, but I still did not understand how that was. I never imagined a business did not have the freedom to conduct it's business well, freely. Now, since reading these posts, especially Jason's, I have a better understanding.
I want to apologize to all that may be effected by this. I was only innocently adding to the conversation completely ignorant of the dynamics of MAP constraints, etc.
A quick heads up would have been nice and well heeded.
Well, yep it was me.
Just to clear a few things up.
My original post which I have since deleted clearly said that I did not think I got any kind of special deal. I honestly thought that since I paid that much, others could do the same. I had absolutely no intention to impress anyone with any kind of imagined special status. Any attention that may have been generated I pointed to LO not me.
I just wasn't in on the plan.
I see many of you here are well versed in MAP and sales, etc.
Not only am I far removed from these concepts in what I do and have done in the past, I have never had enough interest in this stuff to study up on it. It looks like many of you live by these rules and can't imagine that others may not.
Up until today, I knew what I did was somehow wrong, but I still did not understand how that was. I never imagined a business did not have the freedom to conduct it's business well, freely. Now, since reading these posts, especially Jason's, I have a better understanding.
I want to apologize to all that may be effected by this. I was only innocently adding to the conversation completely ignorant of the dynamics of MAP constraints, etc.
A quick heads up would have been nice and well heeded.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
Agreed. MAP is not a new concept. I used to work in the dive industry about 8 years ago.
I worked for a local dive shop that provided training, travel services, equipment sales and air fills.
There were "online only" dealers with no overhead that would whore the stuff out for 5-10% over cost. A legitimate dealer with employees, rent, insurance, compressor maintenance and other expenses cannot compete with a company selling for a few dollars over dealer cost, and still cover their overhead.
MAP is a way to help protect the dealers from "cut throat" pricing practices, as well as preserving the integrity of the product.
While it does allow the dealers a lot of room to "deal", there are other inscentives they can offer. While they can only discount a scope by 10% or so, they can offer a free set of rings with purchase of said scope, if they are inclined to do so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
Agreed. MAP is not a new concept. I used to work in the dive industry about 8 years ago.
I worked for a local dive shop that provided training, travel services, equipment sales and air fills.
There were "online only" dealers with no overhead that would whore the stuff out for 5-10% over cost. A legitimate dealer with employees, rent, insurance, compressor maintenance and other expenses cannot compete with a company selling for a few dollars over dealer cost, and still cover their overhead.
MAP is a way to help protect the dealers from "cut throat" pricing practices, as well as preserving the integrity of the product.
While it does allow the dealers a lot of room to "deal", there are other inscentives they can offer. While they can only discount a scope by 10% or so, they can offer a free set of rings with purchase of said scope, if they are inclined to do so.
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
Now I get it!!!! BRAND PROTECTION, This is POLITICALLY CORRECT for PRICE FIXING!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANT ON
Just for informatioin: In European Union all MAP or any Official Retail Price schemes are illegal and may cayse fines in millions for the manufacturers trying to enforece any kind of price fixing. It is NOT the manufacturer´s rigth to stipulate at which price points the retailers can sell their stuff. Basically the retailer can sell at zero margin or at loss if they want to and the manufacturer has no right to complain or strong arm the retailer to raise prices. If they do they get to pay fines.
If price fixing in the USA still is legal you will end up paying top dollar for everything. Can not see it as a good thing.
RANT OFF
If Viper PST 4-16X50 FFP mil/mil is crap I can always buy a Bushnell 4200 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil or if I want to go classy the S&B PMII is still the golden standard. Anyway I am looking for a 3-12/4-16 FFP mil/mil scope for less than grand and the market is not exactly flooded with them. Yet.
Vortex should be concentratingon getting the goods out with great QC and let the retailers do their job IMHO.</div></div>
MAP is a method of brand protection more than price fixing. Some brands position themselves in the premium segment of the market (ex. Nightforce) and to protect that position, strategy, and general business model, they utilize MAP. </div></div>
Now I get it!!!! BRAND PROTECTION, This is POLITICALLY CORRECT for PRICE FIXING!!!!
Re: Liberty Optics and PST's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
Jasonk,
I could not disagree more. MAP crushes the little guys. Here's why.
MAP covers all advertising, including the net. People shop. People shop online. When somebody wants something, they look around for the best price. What happens when all pricing is the same in a vigorously enforced MAP policy? People buy from the familiar, the comfortable, the places you mention. Why take a chance on some little guy you never heard of? People will take risks for money, but if no reward, they play it safe. Then, big budget, big marketing, big recognition wins everytime. The little guys sit around with unsold product on the shelf.
While your premise is correct, big buying power equates with lower per item costs and potentially bigger discounts, the reality is that the margins aren't there to support such a stratey for long. Ever study a Cabela's quarterly balance sheet? Their net profit margin after costs is like 3 cents on the dollar, IIRC. They just do a billion dollars a year or thereabouts.
If left to our own devices, we got a pretty good thing going. My costs are low, the items we stock are in demand and sell, and my cash needs are relatively low. But doing the MAP hula wastes time and energy, and ultimately costs. It's a burden, but even more so when you are a small outfit.
The other angle is politics. I assure you MAP didn't derive from a bunch of little guys screaming to the manufacturers that Cabelas or Natchess or BassPro where selling products online below their costs. It was the big boys complaining about the little guys under-cutting them. They are right. They can't compete. But money talks.
Ironically, the big boys are better equipped to get around MAP. Massive email and snail mail coupons, special web codes, instant sophisticated shopping cart discounts, giving away lots of free goodies that the little guys can't afford, when you are big, you play the game better. But the fact that this is going on tells me MAP doesn't work.
Sadly, free enterprise, or more succinctly, free market economics, seems to be dying. Recent court cases have affirmed the right of manufacturers to exert more control on how, and what, their products are sold, so I'm told.
The flip side is, it's possible for some yahoo without MAP in place to figure out a way to just flip scopes for pennies on the dollar, but fortunately in this business, most customers have questions, comments, needs for info and they will pay for it. Decent scopes just aren't being sold on every street corner. So I wouldn't sweat it too much.
When it comes to Vortex, we are are the smallest of the bigs, but frankly we stand to gain lots of margin if MAP becomers inviolate. But that's not what its about. It's about building relationships, serving customers, conducting business with honor and having fun. It's about hooking brothers up, for the long term. I guess I'm in the minority with that thinking.
To summarize, all else being equal (price), people stick with the tried and true, with the name brand recognition, which means the big boys. We can compete by luring them in with price, and keeping them with service. But MAP makes getting the foot in the door tougher, and rewards the cleverest and best-heeled system breakers with the most sales.
Scott
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off track too much, but MAP has its merits. If it wasn't for MAP then guys like LO probably wouldn't be in business. Big shops (think Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, etc) could buy in such large quantities and demand such high discounts that without MAP they could sell the scopes for less than smaller guys could buy them from the manufacturer for. Then, next thing you know, no small dealers who provide better CS than the big boxes.
MAP protects the little guys as much as anyone else. Choosing to pay MAP is your own business, but I always call the dealers for best pricing. </div></div>
Jasonk,
I could not disagree more. MAP crushes the little guys. Here's why.
MAP covers all advertising, including the net. People shop. People shop online. When somebody wants something, they look around for the best price. What happens when all pricing is the same in a vigorously enforced MAP policy? People buy from the familiar, the comfortable, the places you mention. Why take a chance on some little guy you never heard of? People will take risks for money, but if no reward, they play it safe. Then, big budget, big marketing, big recognition wins everytime. The little guys sit around with unsold product on the shelf.
While your premise is correct, big buying power equates with lower per item costs and potentially bigger discounts, the reality is that the margins aren't there to support such a stratey for long. Ever study a Cabela's quarterly balance sheet? Their net profit margin after costs is like 3 cents on the dollar, IIRC. They just do a billion dollars a year or thereabouts.
If left to our own devices, we got a pretty good thing going. My costs are low, the items we stock are in demand and sell, and my cash needs are relatively low. But doing the MAP hula wastes time and energy, and ultimately costs. It's a burden, but even more so when you are a small outfit.
The other angle is politics. I assure you MAP didn't derive from a bunch of little guys screaming to the manufacturers that Cabelas or Natchess or BassPro where selling products online below their costs. It was the big boys complaining about the little guys under-cutting them. They are right. They can't compete. But money talks.
Ironically, the big boys are better equipped to get around MAP. Massive email and snail mail coupons, special web codes, instant sophisticated shopping cart discounts, giving away lots of free goodies that the little guys can't afford, when you are big, you play the game better. But the fact that this is going on tells me MAP doesn't work.
Sadly, free enterprise, or more succinctly, free market economics, seems to be dying. Recent court cases have affirmed the right of manufacturers to exert more control on how, and what, their products are sold, so I'm told.
The flip side is, it's possible for some yahoo without MAP in place to figure out a way to just flip scopes for pennies on the dollar, but fortunately in this business, most customers have questions, comments, needs for info and they will pay for it. Decent scopes just aren't being sold on every street corner. So I wouldn't sweat it too much.
When it comes to Vortex, we are are the smallest of the bigs, but frankly we stand to gain lots of margin if MAP becomers inviolate. But that's not what its about. It's about building relationships, serving customers, conducting business with honor and having fun. It's about hooking brothers up, for the long term. I guess I'm in the minority with that thinking.
To summarize, all else being equal (price), people stick with the tried and true, with the name brand recognition, which means the big boys. We can compete by luring them in with price, and keeping them with service. But MAP makes getting the foot in the door tougher, and rewards the cleverest and best-heeled system breakers with the most sales.
Scott
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