I have a brand new MWS in 6.5 Creedmoor with a 20" SS barrel. I have 55 bullets down it and all in 5 shot groups on paper at 100yards. Best group has been 1.5 moa. I keep getting 1-2 unexplained flyers causing it to go from sub moa to well above moa. I have 4 other semi autos I consistently print moa-sub moa groups. I bought this on the presumption it would be my most accurate semi. Gun feels solid. Trigger is not bad for a factory gun. The last 2 trips my SCAR17 has killed it in accuracy. Both trips had a second shooter to rule out it being me. Any thoughts?
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LMT MWS 6.5 Creedmoor accuracy expectations
- Thread starter svxwilson
- Start date
Maybe it just needs some more boolits down the tube. My GAP was a 2-3 MOA gun the first box of ammo. Then it just came together into pure magic. Maybe that one will take a few more rounds. Just a thought
I don't even really start to look at a tubes accuracy until I get past 100. Some shoot right out of the box, but on a factory tube, just keep shooting. Your removing lil imperfections each rd you fire. I've had BR guns shoot .2's from DaveTooley, Clay Spencer, and more from the get go, and I had a Noveske .556 I was worried about, that shot 1.5 min for the 1st 75-80 rds, and come under a minute gun after I went past that 100, 150 rd ct. Keep at it.
I'm in the same boat with a 308. Two out of three touching with the third being an inch and a half higher. I'm going to swap to a nicer, lighter trigger and see if that helps.
FWIW, I have a Geissele High Speed DMR in my Centurion MK12. It routinely shoots less than 3/8" five shot groups with MK262 ammo. I believe it's the Geissele trigger that makes shooting those groups so easy, it is almost like cheating. Everybody seems to like the SSA-E. It's a good trigger too, but I don't think it has the quick lock time that High Speed versions have. I think that is what makes the difference.
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I'm not claiming to be an expert here, but generally I have seen or heard that the vast majority of the time the trigger man is the problem with a semi auto. Especially one with a pistol grip. Lots more errors to occur here than with a bolt gun. I'm not saying you or anyone else is a bad shooter, just that it could possibly be some technique issues showing up on those pulled shots just as much as the gun or load. Could just be the barrel too...
Well consistently shooting the same bad groups must make me an accurate consistently bad shooter, lol.
Lol, again I mean no insult. If its consistent then it could just need more rounds down the tube unless of course that's been done. Then I would say trigger I guess.
No offense taken. I'm not completely ruling the shooter out, it just seems to be consistently printing the same groups. I've only shot around 60-80 rounds.. I've removed the barrel, re torqued it, and will run a wire brush down the barrel a few times. I've heard of the barrel needing to be re torqued to fix accuracy issues so maybe that'll be it.
Do you get the flyer in the same general direction? If so, I would look hard at technique. I catch myself slacking at different aspects of my fundamentals from time to time, and I tend to get a series of similar fliers when I am making a correctable mistake. My large frame SRs suffer no fools, especially this one. JME
It took me 150 to 200 rounds through my LaRue OBR 5.56 before I got to MOA. I was extremely concerned, and I too started a thread about it. I was told to keep putting rounds down range to get it broken in, and given some tips on how to properly "drive" or shoot a gas gun. Turns out there were a couple of things that were wrong with my form, and once I changed them I started seeing better results. Just got down to the .5" range after changing out the SSA-E I had put on there with a Hi Speed Nat Match. As another poster said, it feels like you're cheating with that trigger.
most likely the ammo used.... even in my rifles, I can get a .5 to 2moa swing on average depending on the ammo I use. Also, if these are your first few hundred rounds down range (including your second shooter), then it really is all about using the correct form and practice.
big question is, what are you shooting from? sand-bag front and rear? bipod front sand rear? the lower the bipod = the better. Try different options also... Try two total 5shot groups with a bipod front / sand rear. Try two total 5shot groups sand front/rear. Hell, try a gun vise.
next big question is, what scope are you using? typically, don't expect a 1-4power to better than a 4-16power.
next, it would be nice to see a picture of your set up to see how your scope is mounted / total gear set up.
big question is, what are you shooting from? sand-bag front and rear? bipod front sand rear? the lower the bipod = the better. Try different options also... Try two total 5shot groups with a bipod front / sand rear. Try two total 5shot groups sand front/rear. Hell, try a gun vise.
next big question is, what scope are you using? typically, don't expect a 1-4power to better than a 4-16power.
next, it would be nice to see a picture of your set up to see how your scope is mounted / total gear set up.
I was shooting from a Atlas Bipod on the shortest setting. I use a rear bag from a bench on those days. I have a vortex pst 4-16xffp I can't remember the name if the mount but it was a spendy vortex mount it is not a QD. I don't have any pics on the ipad I will repost them from my phone in a few. I had the pst 4-16xffp scope on my Bartlein barreled 6.5grendel that I shoot Submoa all day with that. The SCAR17 has a sfp 4-16x vortex HS with the American defense QD mount. So both were 4-16x, the MWS had the better scope of the 2. I am just a civi who has a itch for reloading and trigger time. I shoot frequently. I am not saying I am the best I know I can learn more about technique but I don't believe it's me.
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Here is the MWS. I consider myself a capable rookie. I have been shooting semi auto rigs for about 3 years. I have somewhere around 3-4k rounds down range in the last few years all semi auto. Half of which were my own hand loads. I know many of the pros on the hide shoot that in a month but that is my rough round count.
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First 3 shots are alway Submoa-moa the final 2 shots have been opening up the 5 shot group to around 2-3moa at 100.
I tightened the barrel using supplied torque wrench. The first screw needed almost a full 360 turn. The rear one took a 180 turn. Just Curious, does that seems excessively loose, loose enough to exhibit the problems I have been having??
Does your barrel screws ever need periodic tightening? Or once they are tightened with the torque wrench to 140lbs are they good to go until you remove your barrel?
It's cold and snowy here in MT but I might go shoot it tomorrow anyway to see if I get any improvement. It functions well in below 0 temps, i had out this week to check how well it functioned in -20f. Just have to bring a shovel to clear of the bench and area around me to find my brass
!
I tightened the barrel using supplied torque wrench. The first screw needed almost a full 360 turn. The rear one took a 180 turn. Just Curious, does that seems excessively loose, loose enough to exhibit the problems I have been having??
Does your barrel screws ever need periodic tightening? Or once they are tightened with the torque wrench to 140lbs are they good to go until you remove your barrel?
It's cold and snowy here in MT but I might go shoot it tomorrow anyway to see if I get any improvement. It functions well in below 0 temps, i had out this week to check how well it functioned in -20f. Just have to bring a shovel to clear of the bench and area around me to find my brass
!
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the main key to installing the LMT barrel is to make sure 100% that the bolts and the inside of the nut is bone dry.. ANY OIL will massively throw off your torque!! I like to use non-chlorinated break cleaner on the bolts and nuts (put some cleaner on a q-tip for the nuts).... if you don't do the above, then any oil will massively be over torqued if not snap the bolts!
second, DO NOT use the craptastic supplied LMT torque wrench! I picked up a nice craftsman from sears that works really well. using the crappy LMT wrench will only produce snapped bolts! trust me, been there, done that!
second, DO NOT use the craptastic supplied LMT torque wrench! I picked up a nice craftsman from sears that works really well. using the crappy LMT wrench will only produce snapped bolts! trust me, been there, done that!
First 3 shots are alway Submoa-moa the final 2 shots have been opening up the 5 shot group to around 2-3moa at 100.
I tightened the barrel using supplied torque wrench. The first screw needed almost a full 360 turn. The rear one took a 180 turn. Just Curious, does that seems excessively loose, loose enough to exhibit the problems I have been having??
Does your barrel screws ever need periodic tightening? Or once they are tightened with the torque wrench to 140lbs are they good to go until you remove your barrel?
It's cold and snowy here in MT but I might go shoot it tomorrow anyway to see if I get any improvement. It functions well in below 0 temps, i had out this week to check how well it functioned in -20f. Just have to bring a shovel to clear of the bench and area around me to find my brass
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Did exactly this. Went to Sears got me a good torque wrench. Took it all apart and cleaned it. Going to the range in the morning. Going to put a few more bullets down range. This will be the first time with some reloads the first 80 were all factory Hornady 120amax. Got some 120gr Amax over H4350. I now have 80 total bullets down the tube.
I made it to the range for a 15 down the tube. It was around 0 Degrees F with about 10-12" of fresh snow. Finding my brass was a bit of a chore ! After removing and reinstall my barrel with a quality torque wrench I finally got some groups close to 1 moa. The POI shifted about 2 Moa to the left. If I get out of work early enough today I am going to go back to the range for a few more. Attaining some reasonable results is making me feel a little better about this purchase. Thanks for everyones input!
! After removing and reinstall my barrel with a quality torque wrench I finally got some groups close to 1 moa. The POI shifted about 2 Moa to the left. If I get out of work early enough today I am going to go back to the range for a few more. Attaining some reasonable results is making me feel a little better about this purchase. Thanks for everyones input!
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Snowy Montana.
Here are some pics of the day.
My breath was freezing to the gun. Wind chill of -20Degrees F Was right around 0 F. Brrrr.
Here is my best group of the day. This was a handload of H4350 41.8GR and a 120Amax loaded .020 off lands. In once shot Hornady Brass set back .003
I had 10 bullets for every powder drop. So I shot 2 groups for every drop. Here is the other 41.8 group.
Either it was me (which I am not rulling that out) or right around 100 bullets down the tube the gun began to shoot better. It also may have been the placebo effect of me re-doing the barrel install. Either way after getting some decent results yesterday I think I am now a happy owner. Thanks for the support.
Here is one of groups with the flyers from the first 50 down the tube.
Here are some pics of the day.
My breath was freezing to the gun. Wind chill of -20Degrees F Was right around 0 F. Brrrr.
Here is my best group of the day. This was a handload of H4350 41.8GR and a 120Amax loaded .020 off lands. In once shot Hornady Brass set back .003
I had 10 bullets for every powder drop. So I shot 2 groups for every drop. Here is the other 41.8 group.
Either it was me (which I am not rulling that out) or right around 100 bullets down the tube the gun began to shoot better. It also may have been the placebo effect of me re-doing the barrel install. Either way after getting some decent results yesterday I think I am now a happy owner. Thanks for the support.
Here is one of groups with the flyers from the first 50 down the tube.
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I would say this is actually rather good for shooting in neg 20 temps! IMO, when it comes to these types of AR rifles, anything sub-moa is really good and anything around 1moa is rather typical. Anyone that says likewise (regardless of rifle brand name) is usually cherry picking targets which you and I both know... we don't do that shit around here. It really is all about the ammo used and understanding the rifle that is being shot & getting used to shooting that rifle. I would say there is nothing wrong with your rifle especially if you're shooting in those temps. Understanding what ammo your rifle likes to shoot and how it likes to be shot can take many rounds down the tube when it comes to semi-autos... It is not that easy in comparison to shooting a bolt action. Not at all!!
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0yard-semi-auto-6groups-30round-shootout.html It is too bad that you did not enter one of the Elfster's contests as it seems that you could have won handily.
yes, to say you shoot 3/8" routinely is a very bold statement and gives other people the false assumption of, "why doesn't my rifle do the same???"...... it is the whole reason why the shootout threads were started..... not saying you can't, but I would love to see it on a consistent basis. It's one thing to cherry pick a single target.. it's a whole different matter to do it 6 total 5shot groups in a row 30bullets later.
don't under-estimate the power of reloading your ammo based upon the following:
1.) the fact you can custom bump the shoulder datum measurement based on brass fired out of YOUR LMT!! knowing that each pc of brass you reloaded is consistently bumped about .003 to .005 based on YOUR FIRED LMT BRASS is HUGE!
2.) the fact you can set the bullet seating depth based on YOUR LMT'S ogive measurement is HUGE!
1.) the fact you can custom bump the shoulder datum measurement based on brass fired out of YOUR LMT!! knowing that each pc of brass you reloaded is consistently bumped about .003 to .005 based on YOUR FIRED LMT BRASS is HUGE!
2.) the fact you can set the bullet seating depth based on YOUR LMT'S ogive measurement is HUGE!
I know 140gr Amax ammo has shown problems in some Semi auto creedmoor, but have or can you try some Hornady 140gr amax factory ammo?
Well I just had to chime in, I have one of the first 1/8 6.5CM barrels in my MWS and it has shot like a dream since day one with the 140's weather it be the factory stuff or my duplicated hand loads. And yes mine consistently shoots sub MOA, I would guess I have probably 3-4 thousand rounds down it now. Just recently broke the bolts torquing the barrel back on and now I'm stuck waiting on LMT to send me some new ones.
another thing I figured out about my LMT is finding about 3 different bullets that shoot amazing out of your rifle. My LMT .308 absolutely loves the following and is damn near all i'll buy. Once your CL barrel is fully broke in, then finding the bullet that works well with your rifle is key & finding the correct amount of powder to drop / bullet jump is just tweaking:
#1 = 168 amax
#2 = 168 hornady or SMK bthp
#3 = for hunting or general plinking up to about 300yards is 165 btsp interlock
#1 = 168 amax
#2 = 168 hornady or SMK bthp
#3 = for hunting or general plinking up to about 300yards is 165 btsp interlock
The above is truth! The 16" CL barrel adores 168 AMAX bullets, the most accurate bullet I've put through my MWS to date. I've put those in 1 MOA 10 shot groups a couple few times, if not quite consistently yet. Next would be the Hornady 168 BTHPs, they're a bit more accurate than the SMKs. This is only with factory loads though, sadly I lack the space to reload at this juncture in my life.
not to hijack this thread, but this is in stock now!
30 Caliber .308 Diameter *168 Grain A-Max | MidsouthShootersSupply.com
30 Caliber .308 Diameter *168 Grain A-Max | MidsouthShootersSupply.com
I wish mine was a 1/8. They make the 20" ss 6.5cm in 1/9 now. So the heavy 140gr bullets are not ideal. Not sure why the conversation has gone to the 308 CL barrel talk. The only barrel I currently have is the 6.5 CM in SS. My guess is its he most common barrel that the largest amount of people own. I imagine I will own a 308 barrel for it some day.Well I just had to chime in, I have one of the first 1/8 6.5CM barrels in my MWS and it has shot like a dream since day one with the 140's weather it be the factory stuff or my duplicated hand loads. And yes mine consistently shoots sub MOA, I would guess I have probably 3-4 thousand rounds down it now. Just recently broke the bolts torquing the barrel back on and now I'm stuck waiting on LMT to send me some new ones.
I ordered a 6.5 CM barrel at the end of last month from LMT and confirmed it would be a 1:9 twist. I settled on running 120's and 123's.
What showed up at my door was a 1:8 twist. I had purchased some factory Hornaday 120g A-Max loads thinking I would be running the 1:9 twist barrel. I decided to shoot this ammo anyway and I currently have 80 rounds down the tube with okay results.
Is the 8 twist to fast for the 120 grain bullets? Could this affect accuracy?
What showed up at my door was a 1:8 twist. I had purchased some factory Hornaday 120g A-Max loads thinking I would be running the 1:9 twist barrel. I decided to shoot this ammo anyway and I currently have 80 rounds down the tube with okay results.
Is the 8 twist to fast for the 120 grain bullets? Could this affect accuracy?
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Well I just had to chime in, I have one of the first 1/8 6.5CM barrels in my MWS and it has shot like a dream since day one with the 140's weather it be the factory stuff or my duplicated hand loads. And yes mine consistently shoots sub MOA, I would guess I have probably 3-4 thousand rounds down it now. Just recently broke the bolts torquing the barrel back on and now I'm stuck waiting on LMT to send me some new ones.
i suspect that since you have an early barrel and it's accurate...it's a Rock Creek blank
In the past year or so, i have routinely came across thread after thread on multiple different sites regarding the MWS's less than desirable accuracy with their SS barrels (CL barrels are GTG). i've had 2 that I was unsatisfied with all the while my CL was shooting great since day 1. I'm not saying they shoot badly. I'm just saying that most expected more when dropping that kind of coin. I'm a huge fan of LMT and I love my MWS...but I dont have much confidence in their current production SS barrels.
ETA: i've shot some amazingly tight groups with the SS i used to have but after a year of trying, i could not get consistency. I really want a 18" .308 barrel with rifle gas system for my MWS. So much so that i'm deeply considering buying LMT's 20" CL (like Elfster has) and getting it chopped.
It's not my intent to ruffle any feathers. I've just seen too many threads to be a coincidence and i'm not going to let my admitted bias for LMT blind me.
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The 1:8 twist is fine for the lighter bullets too.
I was about to order a noveske 6.5 and have it converted to fit my mws because the barrels on lmt's website were 1:9. For the hell of it I called lmt and spoke with ryan who informed me they now no longer make the 1:9. They only make the 1:8 barrels again! I then asked if they were mike rock barrels and he said that wilson arms makes this barrel for them (not wilson combat). Its a 6 groove 1:8 20" button rifled. Im sure its a high end button job hence the price. So I bought one for my mws...couldn't help it! Glad I called because their website almost cost them a sell considering the fact that I would not buy a 1:9. Who wouldn't want to be able to shoot the higher bc bullets?
Should be here in a week. I cant wait to get it! I will post some groups asap.
Elfster is right on the mark, you add lubrication and the stress on the bolt goes up exponentially. Second the torque wrench that comes with the rifle is not good. I invested in a Seekonk, $160, but damn well worth it, as I have a number of LMTs with the interchangeable barrels.
I too am considering a 6.5 CM conversion set up for my MWS, while I am a real novice with this cartridge, I have been reading a lot lately on this topic. This info is really good.
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It was $566 + 20 for shipping. He said they receive them, shoot two 5 shot groups with factory ammo, and as long as they go into an 1.5" they go into the good bucket. He said they dont really have the man power to do much more than that. He said with handloads guys are getting less than 1 moa. So its safe to say they guarantee 1.5". Im pretty confident I can get it to under an inch. Hopefully I get really lucky and get a really good one!
Well after I did the barrel break in I only had time for 2 five shot groups. I had to shoot out of the bed of my truck which is only 6 ft. Not very comfortable with my position and only 25 rounds down the tube I know this combo has some real potential once I start hand loading. Hornady fact. match 140 amax. I will be out again later this week so more groups to come.
