I’m wanting to build a shortish large platform semi auto that can easily switch between 6.5, .308, and either the .277 fury or the 6.8 tvcm. I would likely add a 3.6-18 Leupold mk5 and maybe a RAPTAR down the road. I believe the lmt mws or the sig mcx spear would allow me to train with available ammo and be able to step up ballistic performance when desired with a barrel change and quick zero adjustment. This would be preferred over having to build multiple rifles in different calibers with expensive glass and targeting equipment. LMT is coming out with their MRGG-A submission, a 14.5 6.5 creedmoor, they have a 13.5 .308 barrel, and they will be producing barrels in 6.8 tvcm. Sig will supposedly be releasing their Spear with barrel conversions in 6.5, .308, and .277 fury. The price is supposedly going To be much lower than the recent commemorative release. Which of the two should I go for? It’s also possible to buy the pieces for the lmt in .308 now and then source the short 6.5 barrel later, but I don’t want to start buying pieces for the lmt if I’ll ultimately go for the spear when it’s released. The sig sounds like a superior platform from my reading, but I just know sig has a bad history with supporting their products and releasing caliber conversions in a timely manner. Thanks for the help!
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I like the MCX/Spear, and i really like the idea behind .277 but just don't see Sig offering enough support to justify me purchasing one. Even if Sig gets the spear to market at 3k, I really don't think we would see spare barrels for quite some time as barrel support for the small frames can be argued as marginal/underwhelming. Even if they offered spare barrels, would they be able to support the 4 dollar per round bi metal cases ammunition. Will they sell reloading components? Beyond Sig, how well will the 6.8TVCM be supported.
This is one of those things where one can get a pretty wide range of capabilities with with a 13.5 inch 308 and a 20 inch 6.5cm, how much more theoretical capability does a fancy 6.8 offer over the 6.5cm and is it worth dealing with potential support issues. What are we talking about, 10 percent, 20 percent, 50 percent?
I love all of these concepts but at 3 dollars a round, for longer range application, I think there may be better tools for that job.
While LMT parts are sometimes hard to find, they have a long track record of supporting their platform.
So i guess the question is do you want to shoot this year, or wait and see how things play out trying to source parts. Scar owners have been asking for spare 6.5 barrels for 10 years now and the best FN can do is offer a mk20 for 4k.
This is one of those things where one can get a pretty wide range of capabilities with with a 13.5 inch 308 and a 20 inch 6.5cm, how much more theoretical capability does a fancy 6.8 offer over the 6.5cm and is it worth dealing with potential support issues. What are we talking about, 10 percent, 20 percent, 50 percent?
I love all of these concepts but at 3 dollars a round, for longer range application, I think there may be better tools for that job.
While LMT parts are sometimes hard to find, they have a long track record of supporting their platform.
So i guess the question is do you want to shoot this year, or wait and see how things play out trying to source parts. Scar owners have been asking for spare 6.5 barrels for 10 years now and the best FN can do is offer a mk20 for 4k.
Sig is known for releasing products to the civ market and have customers work out the kinks. Sig is also known to make promises and have no ETA on availability. Not to mention the proprietary parts as well.
At least with LMT, you have the option of regular AR barrels sent in for conversion if needed. I bought the MCX when it first came out. Give it time before going with a spear
At least with LMT, you have the option of regular AR barrels sent in for conversion if needed. I bought the MCX when it first came out. Give it time before going with a spear
LMT will do what you want right now. With the Sig, I see a lot of “supposedlys”. Not to mention the price is like double.. sure it may go down, but until then, hard to really compare.
The MWS is what you seek. That or just buy a multiple uppers in the cailbers and barrel lengths you desire and get a good lower [GAP, LMT, Larue, Seekins, etc....] I'd get the LMT though. They're worth the wait and the cash.
No one knows how well the 6.8 will be received into the civilian market. I think it's safe to say that 6.5CM is around to stay and will continue to be supported by ammo manufactures for our lifetimes.
No one knows how well the 6.8 will be received into the civilian market. I think it's safe to say that 6.5CM is around to stay and will continue to be supported by ammo manufactures for our lifetimes.
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Thank you all for the excellent advice! I completely agree and am excited to work towards an LMT build.
Vivacious Stallion
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I have a 13.5" MCX Virtus which is just an awesome suppressed 5.56 rifle. But its a somewhat heavier gun compared to its peers. I'm sure the Spear is similarly front hefty.
I also have a 13.5" 308 upper for my MWS which is a still chonk but manageable by the time i throw a can and full mag in it with a LPVO. I don't shoot it much because blast without a can is pretty bad and I have longer barrels for it.
Do you have any time shooting short 308 guns like these? Do you have a can for this gun? If not you might want to try before you buy. The LMT is a more proven and adaptable system tho with an existing parts supply. Sig could abandon or change the Spear after it hits the civilian market. The Virtus seems to be the current end state of the MCX but people with the original one weren't too happy when they changed the barrel mounting system and handguard setup.
I also have a 13.5" 308 upper for my MWS which is a still chonk but manageable by the time i throw a can and full mag in it with a LPVO. I don't shoot it much because blast without a can is pretty bad and I have longer barrels for it.
Do you have any time shooting short 308 guns like these? Do you have a can for this gun? If not you might want to try before you buy. The LMT is a more proven and adaptable system tho with an existing parts supply. Sig could abandon or change the Spear after it hits the civilian market. The Virtus seems to be the current end state of the MCX but people with the original one weren't too happy when they changed the barrel mounting system and handguard setup.
I believe the lmt and the spear will weigh similarly to each other but I hadn’t thought about the spear being more front heavy with its piston design. That’s a great point in favor of the lmt. I haven’t shot a short barrel 308/6.5 before but I definitely plan to use it with a suppressor full time to tame some of the blast. I definitely worry about sig changing the barrel mounting system but would hope that’s less likely after having gone through these military trials. Lmt does seems like the safer spot to place the investment though.
Vivacious Stallion
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The aggressive amount of scalpers selling the MCX Virtus stuff is already extreme. I imagine that the Spear will/would suffer from this as well for a long while assuming parts exist at all.
Unless Sig Sauer massively increases their production amounts, I don't see the SPEAR even being available anytime soon. At current conditions, it will take YEARS for enough complete firearms and parts to satisfy current demand. So unless you like paying scalper's prices...
I'd go with LMT.
I'd go with LMT.
The MWS has been in production since 2009. It has a proven track record. Even today you can find used ones like new in the $3k range.
There’s no way I’d pay to beta test a Sig rifle.
There’s no way I’d pay to beta test a Sig rifle.
A 13.5 MCX sounds like a pretty cool set up. Cut back 16 inch barrel?
I agree that its beneficial to getting some time on a shorter 308 and see how you like them, Personally I really like mine with a low back pressure can. I can shoot it next to my SR25 ACC and its really hard to choose which one I like better. It just works.
With that being said, I know some people that worked on the next gen program and the spear, when combined with the high pressure ammo has atrocious recoil, so that leads to other questions such as is this going to be another scar that likes to eat electro optics? How will this thing suppress if not paired with sig can? Is your average 30 cal can even rated for .277?
I think the most telling thing about the MCX spear is that while I think that there is a good amount of interest in the platform Sig in their infinite wisdom releases the spear in NFA trim only in a chambering that is essentially not available so anybody who did decided to pay the premium not only has to jump through the NFA hoops, there is no ammo even available to shoot a 5 dollars per round. I get that this was supposed to be the commemorative NGSW rifle but really, Sig couldn't slap a dumb ass brace on it so those that were willing to pay the premium could at least finger bang their rifle prior to getting a stamp approved.
Considering that Sig doesn't even have ammo at this time, it would be cool if they had 308 or 6.5 barrels available so their customers who were willing to pay the premium and support them are not left with a glorified paperweight, but yet, here we are.
Vivacious Stallion
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Yes, cut and pinned with a DA flash hider or Nox. Been extremely happy with it for my uses, mostly hog blasting, but I'm gonna use it for a class next one I go to. I've since moved to a T2 to drop weight. Once some of my other lighter cans are released to come back to Texas with me it'll be even better.
I like my 13.5 lmt, but idk if I would recommend it to someone as their first 308 AR10 thing. It slings fireballs without a can, lots of cans may not be rated for a shorter 308, and ballistics are not superior. I also dont think many buyers factor in the weight of 20 or 25 rounds of 308, its like 5lbs. But its fun, light enough to carry with a pack and sits even larger boars right down. If you have a can or triple ear pro and are okay with the weight tho rock on. Ultimately, I think this will become a night vision rig.
You can tell just from the videos that recoil on the .277 is stout. Which is interesting because the MCX is really really soft but has a really short recoil impulse. This would lead me to believe that compared to the LMT, recoil will be very harsh and snappy on the Spear. I really like my MCX, but there is no way I would buy a Spear without access to a 308 barrel or couple 6.5s up front. If they can't fully supply the Virtus barrel market as is, I have no faith in them to do that for the Spear. Additionally, screw them for releasing it as an sbr, the thing may have a recall before it even gets approved for those guys. I'll be interested to see how this all pans out though. I want the Spear to succeed, I just don't want to sign up for a R&D trial.
Nice... I think that small frame MCX is pretty close to being there at this point, I think it could benefit from another barrel or two in the lineup but that can sort of be remedied with cutting back a 16 inch barrel.
There is one dude over on ARFCOM who has a spear and the one thing that I noticed was that for some reason, it has s single op rod/recoil assembly compared to the Small frames dual rod/spring set up. Anecdotally, I am not sure if this matters, but i would think that dual springs would make more sense in system that operations at higher pressures? Ultimately, I think its an interesting platform, but IMO its way to early to commit to.
With that being said, I think LMT 6.8 TVC barrels are pretty interesting. I sort of feel the 130 to 140 class of 6.5CM in 20 inch gas guns is right around that 2650/2700fps zone and with generic data, that puts them sub sonic around 1200 Yards or so. If a high BC bullet is produced in that weight class, and be able to be launched at 3000fps from a 20 inch barrel, that looks to generically yield another 200 to 300 yards before going sub sonic. Is it a game changer, I am thinking maybe not, but it is sort of interesting. as its somewhat easy to buy a spare barrel from LMT and mess around with it.
IMO It looks like the 6.8 TVC "may" offer a couple hundred yards of effective range in a 20 inch gas gun, but that comes at sacrifice barrel life as well as the ability to reload.
Also something to think about in regard to either of these two new rounds, is that if 6.5cm burns out barrels faster than 308 and these new 6.8 rounds burn out barrels faster than 6.5cm, what does that look down the road when attempting to source a new .277 barrel for a proprietary system. Worst case scenario, if LMT is awaiting a run of 6.8 barrels, we know that we can have a normal .277 AR barrel converted fairly easily through Dave Wilson.
Interesting to think about though
I'm a little surprised that people are comparing the known and coveted LMT (I'd only want piston though) to the newest latest greatest Sig "soon to be released". How many times do people need to be kicked in the face? Best case scenario: FOR ONCE Sig fulfills its promises AND brings a viable functional system to market AND supports it appropriately, how much more capable will that system be on the whole than the LMT?? LMT is a known, tested, trusted commodity that is always in demand. Now that I've got the SCAR17 I wanted, LMT and PWS are the only systems I have any legitimate interest in. That LMT with a 13" 308 barrel and a 18" or 20" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel is about as perfect as you can get for 99.9% of us.
Two+ years, but the most recent batch of lowers being sent out have looked like this:
Indeed.
With that being said, I have always had good luck with LMT and Joe has always been receptive to any questions or concerns that the community brings up in LMT social media groups. I will continue to support them and expect them to still remain my go to rifle for quite some time.
With that being said, I really would like to pick up one of Sigs new Spear LT's. The Gen 3 MCX should be pretty refined at this point.
