Loaded my first Handloads ever. 6.5cm. Issues/questions

[rkw junior]

So. Loaded up my first handloads ever in 6.5 creedmoor. I had some ejector/bolt swipes way faster than I thought.

Springfield Waypoint with 22" carbon barrel.
New Starline srp.
Sinclair Mandrel .262
Chamfer and debured.
Did not full size.
I had previously measured my chamber Using the loctite method.
CBTL- 2.2635 - .0350 off lands= 2.2285 CBTO.
I'm limited by AICS magazine length. I'm told max is 2.84".
My COAL is about 2.81 with that bullet at that CBTO. COAL seems to vary though.

H4350
Hornady 140gr BTHP
Cci 450s

Hornadys max says 41.5. So I started at 39 and went up to 41 by .5 grains increments.
39 grains I wasn't seeing any signs.
Once i got to 39.5 I was seeing bolt swipes. I was very surprised to see pressure signs with my velocities being under 2600fps so soon
Here's my magnetospeed results.
Do I need to back off the lands further?

 

[straightshooter1]

So. Loaded up my first handloads ever in 6.5 creedmoor. I had some ejector/bolt swipes way faster than I thought.

Springfield Waypoint with 22" carbon barrel.
New Starline srp.
Sinclair Mandrel .262
Chamfer and debured.
Did not full size.
I had previously measured my chamber Using the loctite method.
CBTL- 2.2635 - .0350 off lands= 2.2285 CBTO.
I'm limited by AICS magazine length. I'm told max is 2.84".
My COAL is about 2.81 with that bullet at that CBTO. COAL seems to vary though.

H4350
Hornady 140gr BTHP
Cci 450s

Hornadys max says 41.5. So I started at 39 and went up to 41 by .5 grains increments.
39 grains I wasn't seeing any signs.
Once i got to 39.5 I was seeing bolt swipes. I was very surprised to see pressure signs with my velocities being under 2600fps so soon
Here's my magnetospeed results.
Do I need to back off the lands further?
View attachment 8253715

Actually, your velocity numbers are about right for a 22" barrel using Starline brass that has a case volume of ~52.0 grs H2O (case volume is always an important factor that you can measure . . . after they've been fired, not when they're sized). The pressure sign of ejector swipe doesn't seem to be the issue for your powder load. Since this is the first time you've fired them, where they're not fire formed yet, this could simply be an issue about head space. Here's some basic info that might help you see were you're at (it's an estimate, like ballpark numbers):

6.5 Creedmoor SRP Brass - Small Rifle - Brass Cases

 

[rkw junior]

Actually, your velocity numbers are about right for a 22" barrel using Starline brass that has a case volume of ~52.0 grs H2O (case volume is always an important factor that you can measure . . . after they've been fired, not when they're sized). The pressure sign of ejector swipe doesn't seem to be the issue for your powder load. Since this is the first time you've fired them, where they're not fire formed yet, this could simply be an issue about head space. Here's some basic info that might help you see were you're at (it's an estimate, like ballpark numbers):

View attachment 8253735

Is 45.53 the average case capacity for new Starline brass?
So should I have sized the new brass for proper headspace? I assumed new brass should be within specs, or am i wrong to assume that?
I've heard many people not bother to size new brass without issue.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Is 45.53 the average case capacity for new Starline brass?

It doesnt matter. For these programs, you need to measure fired case capacity with your brass from your chamber to get an accurate estimate. He was just using defaults to show you a ballpark 22” velocity per charge estimate.

So should I have sized the new brass for proper headspace?

No. If it fits, send it and bump subsequent firings.

 

[mbeavers1]

It doesnt matter. For these programs, you need to measure fired case capacity with your brass from your chamber to get an accurate estimate. He was just using defaults to show you a ballpark 22” velocity per charge estimate.

No. If it fits, send it and bump subsequent firings.

Agree. I normally just mandrel and chamfer new brass then full length size after that.

 

[straightshooter1]

Is 45.53 the average case capacity for new Starline brass?

No. But this number is based on the "Case Volume" less you're bullet's seating depth (and seating depth can vary depending on bullet's dimensions). Keep in mind that Case Volume is not the same as Case Capacity. Case capacity is the amount of space that powder can occupy and Case Volume is the interior measurement to the case mouth.

So should I have sized the new brass for proper headspace?

No. Fire forming then sizing with a little shoulder bump (like .002-.003") is the best way to get to your "proper headspace".

I assumed new brass should be within specs, or am i wrong to assume that?

SAAMI specs allows for a lot of room to allow for variances in cartridges from manufacturer to manufacturer. And a barrel can be mounted a little off that might contribute to more headspace than expected.

I've heard many people not bother to size new brass without issue.

Yes, that can often be the case, particularly for those who have custom barrels or know how much headspace they have. It's just not always so.

You can get some idea how much your cases fit by measuring the case's from base to shoulder datum before firing and then after firing to see the difference between the two.

PS: For cartridge's the size of 6.5 CM, using .5 gr intervals will likely have you jump over a good load. Using .3 gr increments will work better for you.

 

[rkw junior]

Hmmm. I didn't realize this. Is that the norm when using new brass.?
I see everyone posting their loadings and results of loadings, and didnt realize their results are based on using once fired brass? I was wrong to assume. Nobody posts whether it'fire formed or new.
So new brass I need to back off of the powder charge further vs fire formed?
When I initially measured CBTO I use once fired factory hornady brass.
I'm just trying to understand what different steps I need to take using new vs fired brass?
I know once fired needs to be sized and shoulder bumped.
So Anytime I change brass or bullet, whether it's new or fire formed I need to check headspace?
Man, I ve watched hours and hours of videos and read lots and never caught on to this.

 

[Doom]

Where are the targets?

 

[rkw junior]

Where are the targets?

Left is 39gr
Right is 39.5gr. That's where I stopped.
10 shot group.
The 2 on the black dot aren't mine.

 

[straightshooter1]

Hmmm. I didn't realize this. Is that the norm when using new brass.?

New brass can be used, after all, when firing factory cartridges the brass is new. Just don't expect the best or consistent results until the brass has been fire formed. How well new brass will do just depends on the particular barrel chamber's configuration.

I see everyone posting their loadings and results of loadings, and didnt realize their results are based on using once fired brass? I was wrong to assume. Nobody posts whether it'fire formed or new.

Yes, most of the time what's posted has to do with already fire formed brass. I think it's assumed that it's known to already have been fire brass. Of course, if it's data on factory produced cartridges, then it's not.

So new brass I need to back off of the powder charge further vs fire formed?

Essentially. . . yes. You don't need hot loads to fire form the cases. If the new brass has a good fit in one's chamber, some load development can start by getting a feels for what the particular powder is doing in your gun (like when starting out with new cases, I like to get a preliminary look at what some charges do and get and idea where I want to go). After they're fire formed I can then get down to the nitty-gritty.

When I initially measured CBTO I use once fired factory hornady brass.
I'm just trying to understand what different steps I need to take using new vs fired brass?

That's a good step to take if you haven't measured how far you have to the lands using a tool like Hornady's Overall Length Gauge. Or use a spent case with splits on the neck so the bullet slides when closing the bolt and then eject and measure your CBTO to see how much room you have to work with.

I know once fired needs to be sized and shoulder bumped.
So Anytime I change brass or bullet, whether it's new or fire formed I need to check headspace?
Man, I ve watched hours and hours of videos and read lots and never caught on to this.

Yes. It's especially important to check if you're picking up once fire brass that been fired in someone else's gun since their chamber will very likely be very different than yours.

Changing bullet doesn't effect issue with head space since it's just dealing with location of the shoulder. Changing bullets can have a significant difference in how far you're from the lands. If you load a bullet that's touching the lands, you can expect to have substantial pressure increase (like ~10,000 psi) from what you might with loads that are .010" or more away from the lands. That can be dangerous if you're already loading hot loads, so one needs to be aware.

 

[rkw junior]

New brass can be used, after all, when firing factory cartridges the brass is new. Just don't expect the best or consistent results until the brass has been fire formed. How well new brass will do just depends on the particular barrel chamber's configuration.


Yes, most of the time what's posted has to do with already fire formed brass. I think it's assumed that it's known to already have been fire brass. Of course, if it's data on factory produced cartridges, then it's not.


Essentially. . . yes. You don't need hot loads to fire form the cases. If the new brass has a good fit in one's chamber, some load development can start by getting a feels for what the particular powder is doing in your gun (like when starting out with new cases, I like to get a preliminary look at what some charges do and get and idea where I want to go). After they're fire formed I can then get down to the nitty-gritty.

That's a good step to take if you haven't measured how far you have to the lands using a tool like Hornady's Overall Length Gauge. Or use a spent case with splits on the neck so the bullet slides when closing the bolt and then eject and measure your CBTO to see how much room you have to work with.


Yes. It's especially important to check if you're picking up once fire brass that been fired in someone else's gun since their chamber will very likely be very different than yours.

Changing bullet doesn't effect issue with head space since it's just dealing with location of the shoulder. Changing bullets can have a significant difference in how far you're from the lands. If you load a bullet that's touching the lands, you can expect to have substantial pressure increase (like ~10,000 psi) from what you might with loads that are .010" or more away from the lands. That can be dangerous if you're already loading hot loads, so one needs to be aware.

I used the loctite method to get CBTO, but I used a once fired case from factory ammo I purchased and shot.
So should I not expect anything great firing from new loaded brass, essentially its a sacrificial firing?
And is the brass with ejector swipe, is it not reusable?

 

[mike278]

You can get good results with new brass, just be aware that things MIGHT change with subsequent loads because the case volume could change enough to affect your load. Everyone has their own method, but when you find a load that groups pretty well and has good SD and ES, you can generally tighten the group by playing with seating depth.

 

[straightshooter1]

I used the loctite method to get CBTO, but I used a once fired case from factory ammo I purchased and shot.
So should I not expect anything great firing from new loaded brass, essentially its a sacrificial firing?

A lot depends on the quality of brass you're using. Some brass, like Lapua, haver pretty consistent dimensions that can produce consistent results as virgin brass. Some competitive shooters have used virgin brass in competition and got decent results. But, like I mention, it's depends some on how one's particular barrel and its chamber is set up.

Though some load development data can be gleaned from the firing of virgin brass, it's what you might call "sacrificial firing" to reach the goal of getting one's batch of brass fire formed. So as to not "sacrifice" good powder and projectiles, some reloaders will fire form using "a little" fast burning pistol powder with cream of wheat or tissue packed in to hold the powder without any projectile, which can save some barrel ware too. I will typically use blemished projectiles for fire forming rather than my good high end projectiles (like the Berger's).

And is the brass with ejector swipe, is it not reusable?

Ejector swipe does not render cases unusable. As long as primer pockets can hold primers and you're not seeing case head separation signs (or other obvious things, like split necks), cases can be reloaded just fine.

 

[rkw junior]

You can get good results with new brass, just be aware that things MIGHT change with subsequent loads because the case volume could change enough to affect your load. Everyone has their own method, but when you find a load that groups pretty well and has good SD and ES, you can generally tighten the group by playing with seating depth.

Well my results with new starline brass were less than stellar. Lol.
Not sure how I can improve upon those results with virgin Starline brass?
Sub 2600 fps isn't very good with pressure signs with only 39.5gr.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I suspect your jump is less than you think. The Hornady BTHP usually needs to be seated deeper than the 140 ELD and 2.800- 2.810" is typically the length for factory 140 ELD ammo.

 

[chevy_man]

Primer is still nice and round. You're a long ways from hot loads.

Once those edges start to turn from round to sharp it's hot.

 

[rkw junior]

A lot depends on the quality of brass you're using. Some brass, like Lapua, haver pretty consistent dimensions that can produce consistent results as virgin brass. Some competitive shooters have used virgin brass in competition and got decent results. But, like I mention, it's depends some on how one's particular barrel and its chamber is set up.

Though some load development data can be gleaned from the firing of virgin brass, it's what you might call "sacrificial firing" to reach the goal of getting one's batch of brass fire formed. So as to not "sacrifice" good powder and projectiles, some reloaders will fire form using "a little" fast burning pistol powder with cream of wheat or tissue packed in to hold the powder without any projectile, which can save some barrel ware too. I will typically use blemished projectiles for fire forming rather than my good high end projectiles (like the Berger's).


Ejector swipe does not render cases unusable. As long as primer pockets can hold primers and you're not seeing case head separation signs (or other obvious things, like split necks), cases can be reloaded just fine.

I have some lapua brass i can try or I can size the starline I just fired to see what I get for results.
The rest of the loads I didn't fire due to early pressure signs, I guess I'll pull the bullets and load with less powder charge.
Thanks for all your help. I may need more tips, most likely...lol

 

[rkw junior]

Primer is still nice and round. You're a long ways from hot loads.

Once those edges start to turn from round to sharp it's hot.

But what about the ejector swipe, isn't that a stopping point?

 

[rkw junior]

I suspect your jump is less than you think. The Hornady BTHP usually needs to be seated deeper than the 140 ELD and 2.800- 2.810" is typically the length for factory 140 ELD ammo.

I'm definitely gonna recheck that.
Hornady says 2.800 for the BTHP.

 

[straightshooter1]

But what about the ejector swipe, isn't that a stopping point?

Normally. . . yes. Because the the loads you're using and that the primers look just fine and show no pressure signs is why I focused on headspace. When the case's headspace is too short, the case will slam back onto the bolt face that will show as that injector imprint. Head spacing of your cartridges is the thing you need to work out.

 

[chevy_man]

But what about the ejector swipe, isn't that a stopping point?

That's not ejector swipe. That's an imprint from the case head slamming into the bolt as it's virgin brass.

Bump the shoulder .002 and it won't have the space to smash that hard anymore.

 

[rkw junior]

Normally. . . yes. Because the the loads you're using and that the primers look just fine and show no pressure signs is why I focused on headspace. When the case's headspace is too short, the case will slam back onto the bolt face that will show as that injector imprint. Head spacing of your cartridges is the thing you need to work out.

So I checked the fired loads vs the virgin cases.
Fired: 1.5585 average shoulder
Virgin: 1.5565ish average shoulder
The virgin brass is exactly 2 thou lower, which is where I'd bump the fired cases.
If the virgin brass is where my shoulder should be then why am I having the headpaace issue with that brass?
What am I missing?

 

[Billl223]

I shoot a Tikka TAC-A1. My best load is 140 ELD, Hornady Brass, 41.4 H4350, 2.81". Velocity is 2715 and shoots 1/2" MOA at 100 yards.

 

[txtaxman]

So I checked the fired loads vs the virgin cases.
Fired: 1.5585 average shoulder
Virgin: 1.5565ish average shoulder
The virgin brass is exactly 2 thou lower, which is where I'd bump the fired cases.
If the virgin brass is where my shoulder should be then why am I having the headspace issue with that brass?
What am I missing?

There are a couple of things to keep in mind: It often takes 3 firings without bumping the shoulder for a case to conform to the chamber, and the reason to bump a shoulder is to create clearance where it is needed. If your fired cases will chamber easily, bumping the shoulder is not required.

One suggestion is to deprime a fired case then partially seat a fired primer in the same case. Next put that case in the chamber and gently close the bolt. Measuring that case from primer to shoulder should result in a number that closely matches the dimensions of the chamber. Then bump the shoulder 0.002" from there, if needed.

Another idea is to bump the shoulder 0.002" from your longest fired case.

 

[rkw junior]

There are a couple of things to keep in mind: It often takes 3 firings without bumping the shoulder for a case to conform to the chamber, and the reason to bump a shoulder is to create clearance where it is needed. If your fired cases will chamber easily, bumping the shoulder is not required.

One suggestion is to deprime a fired case then partially seat a fired primer in the same case. Next put that case in the chamber and gently close the bolt. Measuring that case from primer to shoulder should result in a number that closely matches the dimensions of the chamber. Then bump the shoulder 0.002" from there, if needed.

Another idea is to bump the shoulder 0.002" from your longest fired case.

I'll give it a shot thank you.
I was curious about re shooting 1x fired brass without bumping the shoulder, It still chamber's fine with no more effort than normal, from what I can feel.

 

[rkw junior]

I shoot a Tikka TAC-A1. My best load is 140 ELD, Hornady Brass, 41.4 H4350, 2.81". Velocity is 2715 and shoots 1/2" MOA at 100 yards.

Did u read the issues I'm having?

 

[Billl223]

Yes, Your loads don't work, mine do.

 

[rkw junior]

Yes, Your loads don't work, mine do.

Why don't mine work?

 

[bax]

There are several reasons that you see the swipe, one of them is pressure. Based on other signs such as the shape of the fired primer, the firing pin depression, and your other fired cases, most likely you are not yet getting high pressure.

If a fired case fits easily into the chamber then you have not yet fire-formed the case to chamber size. You don't need to shoulder bump those cases, you can reload them as they are.

If the fired case does not easily fit into the chamber, then your case is chamber-sized and you need to bump the shoulders to provide clearance in the event of dirt on the unfired round or dirt in the chamber.

New barrels plus new brass do not always shoot to their potential - you may need to get some rounds through it. A friend with a 6.5 CM Tikka shoots tennis balls at 1k for fun. He is a new reloader using standard loads - like yours. You have a short barrel so you may need to tinker with the powder type and charge weight. Do your load development.

 

[Doom]

Looking at your case pictures if the 4 rounds are 39 gr and the right is 39.5 then you are starting to see primer cratering as well as the ejector mark. This may be an issue with pressure. I normally shoot some quality factory ammunition to develop a reference for that issue. I have a Rem 700 that craters regardless of load.