Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

[Birddog1911]

Trying to work up a good and fast, yet very accurate, load for my Mk12 AR. I started with Ramshot TAC because I had about 7 lbs on hand. I'm still working on it, but I have had pretty good results so far.

Heard from those who've reloaded .223 with experience, and many said try Reloader 15. So, I worked up few samples, from 23.5 to 24.3, skipping very .2 grains. As a note: most of these wound up being compressed loads due to the extruded powder I suppose.

I was unpleasantly surprised when my groups opened up dramatically compared to the TAC; everything I heard it was supposed to be a superior powder, accuracy speaking. All of my brass was worked up the same way as the TAC loads, and of course same bullets.

Now, I know that any given barrel can like or dislike a particular bullet, but this is the first time that I've had such a large disparity in loads by changing the powder.

Just wondering if some on here might have an idea why. At this point, I suppose that I'll just use the powder in my carbine loads, and look towards Varget and see how it does next. Maybe the new IMR 8208 XBR.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

You have only tested +/- 0.4 grn ?
What bullet weight are you using?

 

[holdoff]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

My do it all load for XTC is Reloader 15 24.5gr under a 75gr HPBT loaded at mag length. Very accurate out of a WOA SR upper. This load also works well from my 18in Noveske.

I played with TAC as well and found good accuracy with nosler 77s ahead of 23.2gr. Just not as great as with the above load, veolicity wise and group wise. I have used up to 25gr of TAC with the 77s trying to see if it would tighten up, but to no avail. (into mk262 clone territory)

On the plus side; TAC meters like water and that has obvious benefits, but it also shoots very dirty and smokey. Reloader is a very clean burn, dramatically different after shooting 88 rounds at a match.

I'm sure you know, but just as a reminder, make sure to clean the barrel before testing new loads. Some powders don't like to follow others.

 

[jbailey]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

Birddog-

If you are looking for good SPR loads, the two bullets to start with are 77gr SMK and 75g H. Both are mag length loadable with good powder capacity. Next, I think the ball powders will yield you the best velocities with probably decent accuracy. I don't know what you are getting velocity-wise from the TAC, but it is known to be a fast powder. Other ball powders to try are W-748 (known to be an excellent powder for .223R) and AA-2520. 24.0 to 25.5 grains is the workable range for most with both. If you do test a ball, make sure you use a good beefy primer (R 71/2 or CCI #41 or CCI 450).

I have had excellent luck with RL15 on accuracy. Anything I load at around 24.0gr goes 0.75moa at 100, which for me is great. It is not a really fast powder however - I push it at 2600-2650 in 60*F out of my SPR. I think the ball powders cited above will add 100fps to these numbers.

 

[Birddog1911]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

No, I had tested +-.9 grains; 23.5, 23.7, 23.9, 24.1, and 24.3.

And believe it or not, I had skipped cleaning between powders! That could be a good indicator. I'm already planning on testing again, I'll have to recheck my results. Boy, sometimes it's the small things that bite you in the ass!

Oh, and the barrel is an air gaged Douglas 1/7" twist.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

Birdog, I meant .4gr up, and .4grn down from the middle of your charge group,
Sorry the way I wrote it wasn't clear! I knew what I meant in my head lol!

'holdoff' has a valid point about your cleaning, try it again and perhaps widen up your charge group a little.
You didn't say what bullet your working on?

Good luck!

 

[holdoff]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

Birddog,

Reloader 15 24-24.5gr is the sweet spot with the 75-77gr bullets.

I too have omitted cleaning a barrel when short on time or daylight at the range when load testing. Considering the amount of time it takes to load rounds for development, punching the barrel to clean powder fouling doesn't take much effort.

Good luck and let us know how you did.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Birddog1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to work up a good and fast, yet very accurate, load for my Mk12 AR. I started with Ramshot TAC because I had about 7 lbs on hand. I'm still working on it, but I have had pretty good results so far.

Heard from those who've reloaded .223 with experience, and many said try Reloader 15. So, I worked up few samples, from 23.5 to 24.3, skipping very .2 grains. As a note: most of these wound up being compressed loads due to the extruded powder I suppose.




I was unpleasantly surprised when my groups opened up dramatically compared to the TAC; everything I heard it was supposed to be a superior powder, accuracy speaking. All of my brass was worked up the same way as the TAC loads, and of course same bullets.

Now, I know that any given barrel can like or dislike a particular bullet, but this is the first time that I've had such a large disparity in loads by changing the powder.

Just wondering if some on here might have an idea why. At this point, I suppose that I'll just use the powder in my carbine loads, and look towards Varget and see how it does next. Maybe the new IMR 8208 XBR.</div></div>

Your loads should have not been compressed. Perhaps, your powder dispenser was not metering correctly. Also, you might want to chronograph your load, if the idea is to get to some way off distance. I use 23.5 grains of Re-15 for about 2730 fps from 77 naked SMK's, used at 200 and 300 yards. For 1000 yards my 80 grain Berger is over 24.8 grains of Re-15 for about 2800 fps. For 500 and 600 the load is reduced to 24 grains. My short line load is 25 grains of H335 under a 53 grain SMK, Winchester brass and primers for all.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Birddog1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I had tested +-.9 grains; 23.5, 23.7, 23.9, 24.1, and 24.3.</div></div>

23.9 +/- 0.9 is a range that starts at 23.9-0.9 = 23.0 and continues through 23.9+0.9 = 24.8 and has a width of 1.8 gr.
23.9 +/- 0.4 is a range that starts at 23.9-0.4 = 23.5 and continues through 23.9+0.4 = 24.3 and has a width of 0.8 gr.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Birddog1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I had tested +-.9 grains; 23.5, 23.7, 23.9, 24.1, and 24.3.</div></div>

23.9 +/- 0.9 is a range that starts at 23.9-0.9 = 23.0 and continues through 23.9+0.9 = 24.8 and has a width of 1.8 gr.
<span style="color: #FF0000">23.9 +/- 0.4 is a range that starts at 23.9-0.4 = 23.5 and continues through 23.9+0.4 = 24.3 and has a width of 0.8 gr.</span></div></div>

thanks Mitch, i guess i was right after-all!!!

 

[Birddog1911]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

I should have mentioned that I'm loading 77grn SMKs. I'm using an RCBS powder dispenser, weighing each load, and a trickler if necessary to make the load accurate.

As far as the compression, I just don't know what to say. Scale was checked before each new load for accuracy, and each load weighed. I could feel the "crunch" as I sat the bullet.

 

[sermonator]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

If you are compressing the loads with that long 77, you could be fracturing the powder and that might explain the bad grouping. TIf this is happening, try using a drop tube or maybe hold the cases briefly on a vibrating tumbler so that the powder settles.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

Varget compresses with a crunch at 24 grains. No accuracy issues. The common service rifle range is 23.5 to 24.5 grains of RL15. I was also going to suggest cleaning between powder changes. AMU runs apatch worm between their load changes. Other service rifle shooters will us a boresnake. Same principle, remove the residue when changing powders especially changind from stick to ball. Suprisingly more are using RL15 than Varget and TAC.

 

[Birddog1911]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

That settles it then; I have to give the RL-15 another try. I'll load some up this week, clean the barrel, and see what I get from it this time. Probably just go right with 24.1 as that was about as good as they got last time.

 

[BCP]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

I was in the same boat, I really wanted Varget to work but it just didn't happen. TAC and AA2460 give me better results.

 

[samnev]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

After trying several powders I had my best results with W748.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

Have you tried researching the reloading sites, other forums, etc. to get an idea of bullets, powders, and accuracy? I usually have a bullet in mind that I am wanting to use and I find as much information as possible on powders for that particular bullet. I focus not on velocity but on accuracy and narrow my search first by that factor. I then give consideration to the stability and consistency of the powder. Once I have all that figured out and some powders in mind, I begin looking at loads and pressures with QuickLoad. Now don't forget about the BS factor. There are a lot of folks that inflate their results and data so take all the info people have posted with a grain of salt. To make a long post short, the time spent doing homework will save you money and shots on the barrel. Good luck.

 

[holdoff]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

I second the above advice. Your reloading data is just that, its YOURS. I look at posted load recipies as a potential, and i look for general trends in responses. Most professed service rifle shooters tend to run in the upper end to beyond max published data... for .223 REM. Know that there is a reasonable amount of ceiling above that, if your rifle is set up to handle 5.56mm pressures. Most ARs can do that, BUT your chamber/barrel setup is key.

Sierra 77s are good bullets and tend to do well in the majority of barrels, Reloader 15 is a viable choice in powder. Retesting the load at 24.1gr on a clean barrel will hopefully lead to smiles.

 

[Dtarget]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

I didn't mess around much when learning to load 5.56. From my research, the recipe below is pretty standard. Accuracy has been fine for me.

24.0 gr Reloader 15, 77 SMK w/cannelure and light crimp, LC Brass, CC41 Primer.

I do hear some crunching when seating to 2.25 COAL.

 

[Mn_Shooter]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

Sorry for the little hijack...

Tha 77 gr. SMKs you talk about... Would those be the Sierra 1478's?

Thanks... And my apologizes for the hijack. Carry on.

 

[Dtarget]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

If you were asking me Mn...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=129185

 

[Birddog1911]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

The advice is appreciated, though already followed. I've been reloading since I was a kid with my dad. As far as the loads for my Mk12, it is the first time that I've reloaded for an AR, and I wanted to be sure that my homework was done. I went through a couple of different manuals, online research, cherry picked "pet" loads, and started a little below those.

Friday is my first day off, and I'll hit the range in the afternoon. Hopefully the wind won't be as hit has been.

While we're discussing the load, what about crimping? I haven't bothered to crimp, since my SMKs don't have the cannelure, and I haven't bothered in the past with an M1A and never had negative results.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mn_Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry for the little hijack...

Tha 77 gr. SMKs you talk about... Would those be the Sierra 1478's?

Thanks... And my apologizes for the hijack. Carry on. </div></div>

The xx78 has a canalure for the M262 round. The xx77 stock number is not canalured. They generally shoot equally as well but a few shooters may notice a difference.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Loading for .223-Crap groups w/RL-15?

I don't reload for my M4 but I do have an Alexander Arms GDMR 6.5 Grendel which I reload for and I do not crimp.