Lock Them Up

[Veer_G]

Every time I see this happen I begin to think more and more that we do need laws regulating safe ownership of firearms. I'm tired of idiots not understanding that unsupervised kids get into EVERYTHING. I don't give a damn that a reasonable RSC might mean that you have to hold off on buying the fucking mid-range Kimber of your cheap-ass dreams. Lock them the fuck up.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/firefighters_4-year-old_dies_a.html

 

[missed]

Terrible. Laws are only so good if people will follow them. That weapon was obviously left somewhere with one in the chamber. I have gotten to the point where I clear my CC pistol before I go the house, just in case I do something stupid and set it down. I have made it a point to go from my hip to the box, and not set it down. I have a 5 and 9 y/o I couldn't even imagine. It doesnt even take a RSC to deal with it, clear it, separate ammo, and one of the locking $40 Homak boxes will keep a kid out.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

..
idiots not understanding that unsupervised, untrained and undisciplined kids get into EVERYTHING.

FIFY

Not a lot of safes in my neighborhood, just a lot of guns and 6 year olds that respect them and know how to use them.

 

[Veer_G]

Nobody wants extra laws, and nobody wants to be told what to do with their firearms. I get it. I don't want to have to be subject to inspection to make sure that I don't leave shit scattered everywhere (even if my kids are grown and gone), but kids dying because parents aren't responsible and watchful is a damned sin. Like "missed" said, it doesn't even have to be an expensive RSC, even a GunVault or a Homak will do fine if consistently used. And Tony, I like you, but I wouldn't trust a pack of 6 year old kids with unsecured firearms. It just ain't happening.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

More laws would not help. Common sense and good practices and training of youngsters to 'not touch' and basic common sense in owning/storing guns in a house with kids... would prevent this...

This sucks at every level. A child lost due to a parent's failure to recognize that a firearm in the hands of a youngster can be a tragedy.

This was avoidable had the parent used some basic common sense. Locks, training to not touch.... all stuff that is Firearms Ownership 101. Common sense. Lock it up. Common sense. Teach kids not to touch. Common sense. Leave gun and ammo separate in a house with kids. Common sense. We need more common sense, not more laws.

So sorry for this family's loss. We can all hope that it is the last time... but we know it won't be. Did I mention that this sucks at every level.

Sirhr

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Kids are programmed to be curious and get into everything at that age, it's prime time for learning. That's why it's also the perfect time to teach them everything you possibly can. The short term problem here is that the parent screwed up at least this one time. The big picture problem is that people are not reaching their kids anything, they think school does that. Before I was 8 I had responsibilities that included running tractors, conveyors, augers and all kinds of other death trap machinery. My dad was also teaching me to stick weld, basic carpentry, basic mechanic skills, how hydraulics and electricity worked and all kinds of other knowledge I still use everyday. He even managed to sneak in respect for firearms. If I wanted to handle is guns all I had to do was ask, and I couldn't imagine the punishment I would get if I got too curious without an adult around. Parents nowadays just throw the kids in front of the TV so they can get in their daily Facebook fix. Its disgusting.
I have an 11, a 7 and a 4 year old and they are all safer with firearms and bows than most adults I know. The oldest owns a .22 and an AR, and I also trust him to run small equipment, change oil in my vehicles, air up the tires and all kinds of other important responsibilities. Parents doing the bare minimum is the real problem here, and the parents that hide the guns and make them taboo only make the situation that much worse when the rightfully inquisitive child finds it someday. Alright, I'm done ranting. For now....

 

[2ndamendfan]

I respectfully disagree with Sirh and side with Veer here. Of course i don't want more laws just for the sake of more laws. The penalty needs to be harsh. 10 years or so. A couple people put in prison would send a message.

Ah but not just firearms. I am sick and fucking tired of hearing about some kid who had to go to the hospital because they ate one of the pre-dosaged dishwasher or laundry detergent packets. Then the parents sue because they are colorful and look like candy.
Are you mother ephing shitting me. It. Pisses me off bad. Also children dying in hot cars.
It is negligence in the truest sense of the word.

Another thing. It has the potential to affect my rights. In the fact that child deaths are routinely used as a reason to ban guns. If you are not responsible enough with your rights that it may involve me loosing mine well then screw you I have no remorse for your punishment. Same with yelling "fire" in a crowed room.

i have said for years it takes NO money or BRAINS to make a child. After that of course is a different story.

 

[2ndamendfan]

What about DUI. How many times have we heard about someone on their 20th DUI finally hurting someone. First DUI should be 10 years minimum. In Utah it takes at least 3 to get any sort of meaningful penalty. With Uber, taxis, friends there is no reason what so ever to drive while incapacitated.

 

[Strykervet]

WA has no taxes for safes used to store firearms. So I got a jewelry safe, a big one. Got a smaller one too. Won't go into detail, but I can say it's one of my best investments. I sleep well and don't worry when I'm away. They won't fall into wrong hands, which is my main concern given the nature of my collection. And for the cost of one high end rifle with a nice optic, I got a killer safe that's better than what jewelry stores generally use.

I feel we have enough laws, I feel giving a 100% tax break on a safe is a good start, then owners just need to be held accountable. Your weapon is used to kill someone and there is no sign of forced entry or robbery, etc., well, your ass should be a defendant too along with the shooter as you would be a key accessory because the shooting would not have happened without your stolen weapon. In that case, yeah, throw the book at 'em. And loss of 2A rights for life, they've PROVEN they are not responsible enough.

I don't need a law to tell me this is the right thing to do. A law making others wouldn't work. So just hold 'em accountable until others get the picture. If the government has to make a law for you to be a responsible gun owner, perhaps you shouldn't own one in the first place. I for one am tired of being lumped in with the fuckups and dildos out here that have firearms and opinions but zero education or reasoning faculties to do so responsibly. Ie, when they fuck up, I get to pay for it too.

TONYTHETIGER: "Not a lot of safes in my neighborhood, just a lot of guns and 6 year olds that respect them and know how to use them." --About the dumbest shit I've read and one reason why anti's are so afraid of us and why assholes want to legislate us into oblivion. You do the rest of us a disservice, and it's obvious you know little about the nature of children or responsible firearms ownership. Instead of spending time arguing your point, you and all those 6 year old kids will be a lot better off if you go get a safe.

Now I feel a safe should be in line with what you are storing in it, but the bare minimum needs to be a stack-on locker. Won't stop theft, but it does keep kids out. Even the stupid trigger locks that they ALL come with is better than nothing. Nylon coated steel cables can be ran down the barrel to form another, more elaborate cable locking system too, something I used to do when I was on the move a lot.

No, we need no more laws, just holding account those that are negligent with their firearms. Leaving them unsecured is no different than a negligent discharge. There are no accidents here.

 

[MtnCreek]

Serious question. Who here grew up in a home that had a gun safe? A good safe or three is no doubt a great thing to have, but I think that's a fairly new thing for the average gun owner. The closest thing to a safe in the home I grew up in was a gun cabinet that had a lock on it, although it was rarely locked and not all guns were stored in the cabinet.

 

[fdkay]

A quick check of the Pennsylvania Penal Code shows at least two charges that could be filed, the more serious one being endangering a child, the less serious offense being reckless endangerment.
So, as you see, the laws are already on the books.

 

[Veer_G]

A quick check of the Pennsylvania Penal Code shows at least two charges that could be filed, the more serious one being endangering a child, the less serious offense being reckless endangerment.
So, as you see, the laws are already on the books.

But the penalty should be on the order of manslaughter. It's unfortunate that the applicable letter is so circumscript.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@ Strykervet: When did I say I didn't own a safe? I'm actually one of the few people in my area that doesn't think my unlocked truck is a good place to store a loaded gun. And if you really think a safe in every home would give the anti's a warm fuzzy and diffuse their hatred you're an idiot.

@MtnCreek: As I said above, safes aren't common in my rural area and never have been, and they're usually bought with fire protection in mind.

@Veer: We may not agree on storage, and that may be just because of the region I live in, but I do agree that the charge should be a lot more serious.

 

[fdkay]

But the penalty should be on the order of manslaughter. It's unfortunate that the applicable letter is so circumscript.

A case COULD be made for involuntary manslaughter, but is VERY unlikely.
This was a terrible accident, yes, it could have been prevented, but no jury is going to send a father to jail when he was inadvertently responsible for his child's death.
It will be a case of "he has suffered enough already".

Involuntary manslaughter is typically the result of gross negligence or recklessness.

"A prosecutor can establish gross negligence or recklessness by comparing the defendant's actions with an established standard of care that a reasonable person would follow."

 

[Tucker301]

My dad kept a loaded 25 ACP in a drawer with 4 boys in the house. I can remember being as young as 8 and knowing what it was and where it was. My brothers and I would open the drawer and look at it and then close the drawer back.
He let us shoot it when we got older. I think I was 14 or so, but even then, he told us that if we laid a finger on it when he wasn't around, he'd skin us alive.
Having received leather previously for various other and lesser indiscretions, we never considered putting a hand on it.
The closest I ever came was one day when one of my brothers said he was going to kill me with a butcher knife. I barricaded in my parents' bedroom and told him that if he didn't calm the fuck down I was going to get that baby Browning out of that drawer and deal with him.

Today's problems aren't about guns or laws. They are about raising undisciplined shitheads.

 

[Tucker301]

And I'm not calling the 4 year old an undisciplined shithead, so put that way.

 

[Foul Mike]

I was raised by both my parents and Grandparents, more so by my Grandad.
Gramps had a rifle near every door of various calibers. They were hung up out of my reach when very young but as soon as I was old enough to shoot he taught me all about the rifles, how to clean them and how to shoot them and what each rifle was good for shooting whatever pest or meat animal with, ie. don't shoot rats around the grain elevator with the '06, get a 22 and use birdshot etc. and don't go after an elk with a 22.
Lots of lessons and demonstrations and taught that rifles are tools, keep them clean, well oiled and they will serve you well and don't let any of your friends fuck with any firearm or I will whip you until you hope you die.
I think Sirh hit the nails on the head in post #5.
Common sense is not so common anymore.
I raised my kids like my Grandad raised me and they all turned out OK. They even got their little asses blistered a time or 20. FM

 

[Rthur]

My dad kept a loaded 25 ACP in a drawer with 4 boys in the house. I can remember being as young as 8 and knowing what it was and where it was. My brothers and I would open the drawer and look at it and then close the drawer back.
He let us shoot it when we got older. I think I was 14 or so, but even then, he told us that if we laid a finger on it when he wasn't around, he'd skin us alive.
Having received leather previously for various other and lesser indiscretions, we never considered putting a hand on it.
The closest I ever came was one day when one of my brothers said he was going to kill me with a butcher knife. I barricaded in my parents' bedroom and told him that if he didn't calm the fuck down I was going to get that baby Browning out of that drawer and deal with him.

Today's problems aren't about guns or laws. They are about raising undisciplined shitheads.

This^^^
Same at my house. They were taught at a young age no handling without my presence.
This included many nieces and nephews.
Not a problem in decades of exposure.

R

 

[TonyTheTiger]

and it's obvious you know little about the nature of children

Just noticed this, what does it mean?

 

[ArmyJerry]

a gun is useless if its in a safe.

 

[Veer_G]

a gun is useless if its in a safe.

That's why at least one of them isn't, Pinky.

 

[vh20]

My dad kept a loaded 25 ACP in a drawer with 4 boys in the house. I can remember being as young as 8 and knowing what it was and where it was. My brothers and I would open the drawer and look at it and then close the drawer back.
He let us shoot it when we got older. I think I was 14 or so, but even then, he told us that if we laid a finger on it when he wasn't around, he'd skin us alive.
Having received leather previously for various other and lesser indiscretions, we never considered putting a hand on it.
The closest I ever came was one day when one of my brothers said he was going to kill me with a butcher knife. I barricaded in my parents' bedroom and told him that if he didn't calm the fuck down I was going to get that baby Browning out of that drawer and deal with him.

Today's problems aren't about guns or laws. They are about raising undisciplined shitheads.

This is much like how I was raised. And, like MtnCreek asked, no one I knew out in the country where I grew up had a gun safe. Never even saw one until I was an adult. My Grand-dad kept all of his guns in his bedroom, hanging on open racks, fully loaded. The grandchildren were all fully-versed in how setting foot inside that bedroom was the first step to a fate worse than death. None of us ever tempted fate. My own Dad kept a loaded revolver by his bed, but all his other guns were unloaded. Again, we never tempted fate.

Having said all that, about 8-10 years ago I had the horrible experience of performing CPR to keep an 11-year old girl alive for about 20 min. until the EMTs arrived. I was a guest at the house for a family Christmas party. She was shot by her twin brother while the two were playing in the grandparent's bedroom. The brother found his grandfather's loaded .22LR in the corner of the room, where it was kept loaded for shooting squirrels off the deck. As a veterinarian, I can't count the number of GSWs I've treated from .22LRs and they are almost never fatal. But this one was almost a perfect disaster. She was laying horizontal with her head lifted up, facing her brother. The bullet entered at the base of her throat (thoracic inlet) and travelled through her thorax and severed the great vessels at the base of her heart, then exited her abdomen just below the last rib.I kept her alive until the EMTs got there and took over. I'm told they kept her alive until she got to the ER, but the doctors there could not save her. There was a distinct difference in how these kids were raised vs. how I was raised. I have been told their mother was scared of guns and wanted nothing to do with them, and didn't want her kids to be exposed to firearms (i.e. completely uneducated regarding firearm safety).

 

[pmclaine]

This is much like how I was raised. And, like MtnCreek asked, no one I knew out in the country where I grew up had a gun safe. Never even saw one until I was an adult. My Grand-dad kept all of his guns in his bedroom, hanging on open racks, fully loaded. The grandchildren were all fully-versed in how setting foot inside that bedroom was the first step to a fate worse than death. None of us ever tempted fate. My own Dad kept a loaded revolver by his bed, but all his other guns were unloaded. Again, we never tempted fate.

Having said all that, about 8-10 years ago I had the horrible experience of performing CPR to keep an 11-year old girl alive for about 20 min. until the EMTs arrived. I was a guest at the house for a family Christmas party. She was shot by her twin brother while the two were playing in the grandparent's bedroom. The brother found his grandfather's loaded .22LR in the corner of the room, where it was kept loaded for shooting squirrels off the deck. As a veterinarian, I can't count the number of GSWs I've treated from .22LRs and they are almost never fatal. But this one was almost a perfect disaster. She was laying horizontal with her head lifted up, facing her brother. The bullet entered at the base of her throat (thoracic inlet) and travelled through her thorax and severed the great vessels at the base of her heart, then exited her abdomen just below the last rib.I kept her alive until the EMTs got there and took over. I'm told they kept her alive until she got to the ER, but the doctors there could not save her. There was a distinct difference in how these kids were raised vs. how I was raised. I have been told their mother was scared of guns and wanted nothing to do with them, and didn't want her kids to be exposed to firearms (i.e. completely uneducated regarding firearm safety).

Man, sorry you had to go through that but she was lucky in the sense that at least she had a good, willing person there that was able to give her the chance to make it to big medical.

I have thousands of dollars in guns and Id really love to be able to lay my own eyes on them rather than have them hidden away in a steel box.

Either storage in the laundry closet for the practical or storage in beautiful glass front cases for the proud was typical when I was a kid. If the glass front case had a lock 99% of the time the key was "hidden" on top of the case.

As a kid any house we were in that had guns we found them and checked them out.

Thing was we had some education and either cleared them or knew enough not to point them at each other.

I think education is the key. My job has me with a gun. At the point my kids got curious about it. I decided to wear out the curiosity. The kids know anytime they want to satisfy their wonder they can ask, I will clear the gun and they can handle it - safely.

Its too bad the libs think head in the sand is better than education. Schools should teach kids "life education" because sometimes parents at home don't. If its so important to teach them how to fuck it should be equally important to teach them how to change a tire and safely handle a gun.

If I had to do my house over again Id build a secure room with vault door and display my guns in my man hideaway. The only reason I secure my guns is to keep them away from innocent hands. Sure the state requires a "locked container" but the state sucks and my front door would suffice "locked container" in a free world. The security/fire concerns of theft were a secondary factor. Unless you spend huge amounts at best you will prevent the tweaker stealing your stuff but a real theif is going to get them and I think fire wins everytime.

The safe besides offering security is actually good for gun storage because I remember that when I was a kid the 10/22 and BB guns I had displayed in my 4 place wall rack would typically be dust magnets and when taken down after a period of non use they were cobwebbed and oily areas where grimy with dust.

I miss the nostalgia of the glass front gun furniture but I can live with this new reality.

 

[MtnCreek]

pmclaine, Next time I'm at my dad's I'll see if I can get a photo of his gun cabinet. You would probably like it. It's made out of wormy chestnut that came from the old barn that was torn down in the mid 80's.

 

[pmclaine]

pmclaine, Next time I'm at my dad's I'll see if I can get a photo of his gun cabinet. You would probably like it. It's made out of wormy chestnut that came from the old barn that was torn down in the mid 80's.

Those were awesome. I remember the Sears big book probably had 5 or 6 pages of different gun cabinets.

I don't think the world has fundamentally changed to the point where such storage is unsound but its like how I (everyone) now refuses to let their kids out of there sight.

The world is not more dangerous. Kids today are as safe as they were 40 years ago and in the 40 odd years I have lived in my house I have never heard of a break in in the neighborhood.

Still the news has us convinced there is a crime around every corner while FBI stats are saying otherwise.

Two things I will say that have changed, the elimination of mental health lockups perhaps exposes us more to people that otherwise would not be in society (I liked when pedophiles were locked away) and for political reasons it has been determined social unrest should be promoted.

Take that away we can take the kids off the short leash and let them grow up while we lemon pledge our exotic wood gun cabinets.

 

[Gunga]

Anti gun politicians latch onto a tragedy like this to demand more restrictive gun laws while ignoring the fact that over 500,000 abortions will be done in the United States this year. These "it's for the children" arguments are amazingly context dependent.

 

[pmclaine]

I don't want to go into a whole Roe vs Wade argument because I think my opinion of how to handle it draws fire from both sides - which Im happy to take.

On another site Im in a conversation with a troll and his opinion is that the Constitution deals only with "lives" and Im understanding his point is life only begins when you are outside the womb.

I haven't responded yet but Im going to challenge him to go to a woman that perhaps lost an unborn child in a car accident and say "Well thankfully no one was hurt".

 

[Veer_G]

Anti gun politicians latch onto a tragedy like this to demand more restrictive gun laws while ignoring the fact that over 500,000 abortions will be done in the United States this year. These "it's for the children" arguments are amazingly context dependent.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/h4wy5ts.gif"}[/IMG2]

Nice try, Fluffy.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I grew up in rental apartments in New York City, and a single family home in Inner City Newark, NJ. We owned long guns, and there were no safes/cabinets. The rifles and shotguns resided against the back walls of the various closets. Anything that crossed the apartment threshold was cased. Ammunition was kept separate, and as the youngest, its location was nether known nor the object of curiosity for me. Since I was usually asked along for shooting, and later, assisted in my teens when I went to the Boys Club/PAL ranges, ammunition was always handed to me wen I had a reason to have it.

Touching a firearm for any reason carried 'an adult responsibility', which had a real meaning in our house. F'king up about such stuff usually entailed an ass whuppin', and carried the obligation to report my own transgressions, because leaving that up to chance meant a worse ass whuppin'. My Brothers, 10 and 11 years older than I, were the primary 'educators'. Mom and Dad could shoot, but I seldom saw them doing it.

These days, 60-65 years later, all my long guns are stored in locked steel gun cabinets (against theft), and my handguns are treated about the same as my keys and cellphone, Handy, out of sight, condition 3, exactly the same condition they are carried in.

I want a need to rack the slide before engaging. This makes the firearm a lot safer to handle (no discrete safety, just the 'Glock-ish' trigger safety), and also ensures that I am obliged to take decisive action prior to engagement. A moment's pause to collect one's thought appeals to me, It probably makes me the second one out of the blocks, but I'd still rather have that extra moment for rational thought.

I had been shot at repeatedly in my youth (19 y/o, 'Nam, USMC), so I don't have that overpowering fear of the unknown to overcome. Maybe that helps, but really, I'm 71, have yet to get onto a non-combat zone two-way range engagement, and the odds favor it staying that way for what time I have left on the planet. I carry the handgun so I can have the option to be a positive influence on the local reality. If that requires my own personal defense, so be it.

There are no minor children who have ready access to my home, and growing up in Newark, the doors are locked day and night.

Greg

 

[2ndamendfan]

I believe we were all raised similar. I had full access to my BB gun after the age of 8, it was kept in the closet with my dads 270, shotgun, and a couple others. Some how I knew the BB gun was ok, the others were not. You might think because I had been taught, and while there were some lessons I do not remember anything specific other than "you can touch this one (the BB gun) you can NOT touch the others). I was the trouble maker in the family and I never ever touched them. When I think about it I wonder why cause I got into a lot of other stuff.

Oh I got a beating from time to time, but that generally didn't stop me. I also didn't take "hunters safety" course until about 12 years old (scored 97 out of 100). It seems weird to think about it and to why I never touched them.

I have had a safe since my daughter could crawl. She has 3 guns in it that are hers, but I have never given her the combination. She is extremely responsible but I have always kept them locked up (not all MR Jerry).

Obviously training, teaching is the first thing to do to prevent such incidents (notice I did not say "accident").

I don't want laws just to have laws and if current laws will work then they need to be used and enforced. You may think "Oh the poor parents they have suffered enough and will have to live with this forever". I say fuck-em and here is why.

I have seen posted many times here that there is no such thing as a "accidental discharge" just a "negligent discharge". Also there is no such thing as a "preventable accident" if it is preventable then it has some negligence attached to it. If you are walking through the woods and a tree falls on you that is an accident (it is not feasible to chop down all the trees so stop right there.) . But if you are cutting down a tree and it lands on someone then that is negligence. So these so called accidents are not such and are actually "negligent discharges" If you have a "negligent discharge" of a weapon in your home and it goes through a window and kills your neighbor you will be held responsible. Sadly depending on the area you live in the consequences could be very minor to very extreme, but that is another thread.

Next reason to not give two shits about the parents ( or other adults) is that the 2nd amendment is always under attack. While I am not here to argue "god given rights" or "government given privilege" the fact of the matter is the government does not have to answer to God so they can take the rights away on a whim. Many governments have done so, don't doubt ours would also. But they need ammunition to use, to get emotion flowing. The CDC released a study just a couple of weeks ago that said guns one way or another are the leading cause of death of children age 1-17. This creates emotional response. Oh sure Trump is POTUS but he won't be forever and it would be easy to use the study to come up with the "save the children law" which would be full on anti-gun. Not everyone understands that the law makers use wording to get the response they want. The "Affordable Health Care Act" is anything but affordable. So anything that puts our rights in jeopardy should be punished. Just like yelling "fire" in a crowed room will get you prosecuted if people are trampled to death. Their prosecution helps to protect our 1st amendment by showing that you can not be negligent in the exercising of your rights.

Next I was raised and do believe that as a minor my parents were responsible for my actions. For example, a person I know (not a friend) has a son who for no good reason started a city park bench on fire. The child (14) was found guilty and has to pay restitution of $800. The child's lawyer has told the parents that the court can come after them for payment since he is a minor. Also a 16 and 14 year old a few miles away have been charged with arson for starting a brush fire that almost got to some houses. estimated cost is $12,000 of which the parents could be liable for. So clearly the parents have responsibility in knowing what their children are up to.

Saying it is an accident is basically blaming the gun, which we all agree is not the answer. It has been proven that the human brain is not fully developed until the age of 24 on average. The last area to develop is the area of action=consequence. So I would argue that some child under the age of 12 has no damn idea of what is about to happen when that trigger is pulled. There was a 10 year old who killed his father after being punished. In questioning by psychologists he said that he just wanted his dad to "go to sleep" and he did not understand that his dad would never ever come back.

Lastly, what is the purpose of any law. The purpose is to modify behavior to a outcome that is satisfactory for society. Obviously I think Society would like to see such negligence end.

 

[Foul Mike]

2ndamd. That is some pretty good stuff there but I disagree with a 12 year old not knowing what happens when you pull the trigger.
I was younger than 12 when my Grandfather trained me and I KNEW what happened when the bullet left the barrel. I was shown what guns could do and how far out they could do it.
I guess it kind of gets down to how good your education was and how you were taught.
We were very rural and shot at various pests all of the time as well as hunting our meat for the winter. FM

 

[MtnCreek]

^ when you kill a critter, gut it, skin it, eat it, you understand. I could almost believe some of the dipshits now days don't get that.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Foul mike: yes your were given life lessons. I am more referring to a child who has not had the love and guidance of a parent in such matters. I never said a child can't learn.

MtnCreek: you are so correct. That is one thing i could not get my wife to agree on. I do believe that killing another mammal will educate on life and death. I had killed a ton of starlings with my BB gun and never really made any connection per-se. But i will never forget the first squirrel i shot (22lr with dads approval). I still see that squrirel from time to time.

PS. Thanks for the comments.

 

[Bulldog Firearms]

Punishing these people or instituting more laws are not the answer. I'll take my chances with myself and as little of the government telling me what's best for me as I can. It's not a perfect solution, but it is the LEAST bad available.

 

[Foul Mike]

I had a BB gun too. I shot mice and sparrows in the garage with it after my Grandfather knew I was proficient with it. Up to that point it was cans and paper only. Lots of practice on my part.
It was stressed to me that when I shot a critter, no matter what it was,it was dead right there or there was hell to pay, and clean up the mess you just made.
No birds were to fly off with a BB in their ass and if they did I had not used enough gun.
He stressed that to me over and over. If it needed shot that was OK but there should be no suffering from a wound, if I wasn't sure of the kill, pass that shot up and wait for the next one. FM

 

[W54/XM-388]

Once again there is some "Save The Children" BS cry, somehow if we only just tossed away all our freedoms, invited the government into our homes & agreed to only exercise our constitutional freedoms if every stupid bureaucrat agrees... "it would so all be worth it if only we saved a child's life" B.S.
(And just remember when you hear about the "Children" killed by guns, that includes all the Gang Bangers shooting each other & the local neighborhood up, or being shot by the police which is what MOST of the deaths are half the time they fudge the numbers and include 18-21 year olds as well. True accidents are much rarer. On any given day a kid has less than a 1 in 100 million chance of being killed in an actual gun accident caused by someone leaving a gun out). You would have more of a case for saying less kids would die from guns if there was no war on drugs or police didn't kill people who were trying to kill them.

Faked outrage based on pushed news stories. Nobody seems to really catch on than the news is just another propaganda medium, showing you pretty much only the bad news from across 400 Million to 7 Billion people's lives and then hyping whatever is on the agenda for the day, mostly all controlled by less people than you can count on your fingers. Today it's kids being killed with guns.. tomorrow it's poor illegal aliens who don't get millions of other people's dollars worth of free medical care in countries that are not their own, the day after some poor Muslims had their feelings hurt... the day before, some "Twitter users" were outraged by something they felt they knew better about.. Rich people who should have paid more taxes so more could be re-distributed. Ever wonder why VW was dragged around the streets over a few small issues with their Diesel cars but Chrysler's problems with the same issue hardly get a notice in the media?

Then you move over to Facebook and social media where they already admit to playing around with influencing people's ideas, emotions, moods and desires and wonder why there is always the new outrage (which always seems to go hand in hand with those pushing the "politically correct" ideas).

One only need look at the craziness in CA to see where that whole mandatory storage BS goes to, or for that matter to NYC where you can't hardly have your gun ready to defend yourself in your own home.

Yes the Bloomberg group loves those same ideas & has been busy pushing them as the first step to their total sheep goal, they know it's BS as well and will only help them crack down on law abiding people and try to price them out of their constitutional rights while doing nothing to help anything or save anyone.

Yes it's tragic when kids die before their time, but kids die every day in way greater numbers from all kinds of things that are so mundane the public & the media don't care... Sure it's news when a kid gets shot... but the 3 other kids that drowned in a bucket that day..... well I guess they didn't die in a newsworthy way....
Laws don't stop stupid people from doing stupid things, laws won't protect you from the world if you can't think.
Some kids just get born to stupid or evil parents and unfortunately they drew the short straw of fate and it's just how life goes.

Kids die from a huge amount of things:
pools
lakes
Bathtubs
Buckets
power cords
cribs
car crashes
getting run over in the driveway
chairs
string
plastic bags
hotdogs
food
government and police actions
Government mandated vaccinations
neglect
drugs
diseases
getting the short end of the straw of fate
toxins in our environment causing childhood cancer based on gene damage
Plus many others.

So you think if the government got to oppress and restrict us law abiding responsible people somehow the idiots & criminals would not still be idiots & criminals?
If you think your freedoms will somehow be safer because you cower & back track every time an idiot or criminal does something, you'll shortly be proven wrong.
Sure you love to whip out ideas for more draconian punishments... because your inner puritan so needs to punish wrongdoers.... and where has that gotten us today??
So one of you wants to ruin peoples lives harshly if they happen to be over a number set by some religious zealots who lost the battle when FDR got elected?
So another of you thinks that people should be sent to jail if they happen to get robbed by an intelligent old fashioned burglar who knows that you can get in and out of most locks without leaving a trace.
Apparently having to live with your kid dying for the rest of your life is not really enough punishment for some of you... You have to make sure to tear about the family and ruin it for good just to satisfy your needs for harsher punishments.

If you actually really want to save kids more often, you are going to have to destroy the whole modern idiot culture and take people back to being educated and not getting ahead by being stupid, teach people safety, common sense, consequences & teach people about guns from the time they can walk, teach people right & wrong and respect and decency. Stop letting media glorify idiots and those who do bad. Stop teaching politically correct social ideas in school and start teaching real life and what you should and shouldn't do to stay alive, healthy and safe. Show the kids and the adults some real pictures and videos of people really getting killed and scare some sense into them that getting hurt, dying or getting killed is not pleasant, it's painful and shocking & often revolting or sickening.

It's a lie that has been spread that young people can't understand consequences of actions, it's because people don't teach kids consequences any more that they have no idea what they are. You may be more impulsive when younger, but if you started out as a toddler learning bad = hurts a lot the pain makes you remember not to do things the same as any animal remembers.

 

[Veer_G]

I buried my first-born (natural causes). I wouldn't wish that grief on anyone, but I'm not willing to accept the grief of the criminally incompetent as "punishment enough." Are those of you advocating no punishment whatsoever really willing to find some sort of balance between avoiding a perceived general threat to inalienable rights in exchange for accepting murderously inept parenting?

 

[Bulldog Firearms]

I would accept a murderously inept parent every day to keep our rights from being eroded, because the murderously inept parent is the exception, not the rule.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Veer_G: you have mentioned your child before, I probably didn't say it before but I will now. My condolences to you from one father to another.

Bulldog Firearms: I Don't think you get it. I hate with a passion a hypocrite. We as gun owners preach "responsible gun owners" and "guns don't kill people, people do" also to the same effect "don't blame the gun" . But with that if we as gun owners and also a society keep coming up with excuses as to why these incident keep happening one day the government will have had enough and will impose restrictions on your freedoms. You see adults that allow this to happen (trust me the intent may not be there but it was still allowed to happen) are absolutely not responsible gun owners. They need to be culled for the greater good of responsible gun owners.

I hear from time to time that the Muslims need to "police their own". Well the same thing applies here. If they are not thrown to the wolfs. If you are a responsible gun owner who would not let something like this happen on your watch then you have no worries for charges being filed against someone who did.

The belief that our rights are God given and CAN NOT be taken away is a pipe dream of biblical proportions. Our rights need to be defend from both inside and out. Cases like this are where we get laws that require all guns be stored securely at all times. No one wants that. But that is a blanket to cover the issue because people have a bleeding heart for the family due to the loss of a child.

W54/XM-388: You start off not to bad. You are correct in that the study I noted by the CDC that children 1-17 are most killed by something related to guns includes anything and everything. Gang banging, suicide, murder, and other incidents. But what many fail to understand that the CDC is on the verge of declaring it and epidemic (I imagine if Hillary won it would be by now). This talk induces emotional responses by the general public. Emotional responses are rarely good, as they normally lack judgement.

Failing to hold certain parties responsible for their negligence WILL cause us to loose some Freedom. It always has and it always will.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I would accept a murderously inept parent every day to keep our rights from being eroded, because the murderously inept parent is the exception, not the rule.

Again that is not how it works. Murderously inept parents get the attention. Rifles of any style are used in less than 1% of crime with "assualt rifles" being used in less than 1/2 of those crimes. But what type of gun have we had to defend more than any other in the last 30 years.

If you are not inept then you have no worries.

The inept gun owners get thrown in the same corral as "responsible" gun owners. There are 2 choices, kick the inept to the curb and claim no affiliation or keep defending them and go down with the ship.

If you take a murderously inept person and hold them responsible for their inept-ness then that is not eroding nor infringing on your rights. Yet if you do not but still want to stop them from being inept then you have erode and/or infringe on everyone else's rights. Hence the hypocrite, you can't not have your cake and eat it too.

You either have to support "responsible" gun owners 100%. Of which the owners of said guns do not meet the definition of "responsible" or accept the fact that you will have to defend your gun owner ship because of their actions.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Punishing these people or instituting more laws are not the answer. I'll take my chances with myself and as little of the government telling me what's best for me as I can. It's not a perfect solution, but it is the LEAST bad available.

Do you even put all your thoughts together before you answer? You will take your chances with yourself rather than the government telling you what is best for you. Lets work that out past the end of your finger tips. So under current law or a law that was passed based on an act of negligence would in fact not be the government telling you what is best for you. It is wrong and against the law to murder someone correct, yet you would not be arrested until said actions had been done. So the government has done nothing to prevent you from killing someone but has in fact added a punishment for when you do.

Which is exactly what you want. This is also the point we are trying to make here. To prevent us all from loosing, those that have been negligent in their actions should be punished. Otherwise we risk a blanket law that bans items before hand to "prevent" negligence. That is the government telling you what is best for you.

I am 100% against laws requiring "secure" storage. If I can make it work with a few guns around the house then so be it and good for me. But I also assume all responsibility for having those guns around the house and not under constant lock and key.

 

[Bulldog Firearms]

Obviously you and I have different ways of thinking and are unlikely to change each others view point. I'm surprised that anyone who cares to have their eyes open has any faith in government to do the right thing.

Our government regardless of political affiliation has been murderous (and if History is not rewritten, will be remembered among Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot) domestically and abroad, has defrauded it's constituents, and progressively eroded our rights.

We need less of everything government.

Do you actually believe that criminals consider the criminal penalties for their actions? Absolutely not. The same thought process that goes through your head when you buy a lottery ticket is the same thought that is going through the head of a criminal committing a crime. You know the odds, you won't win, but you buy one anyway because there is a little part of you that thinks you're special and the odds don't apply to you and that you will win. Criminal believes he's special and won't get caught and that the odds don't apply to him. Because he won't get caught, the penalties don't matter.

You can make more laws, but it will not likely make any significant change, because the people who are careless, are careless because they believe the odds don't apply to them.

So let's say you do charge these people criminally, best case scenario, they are bankrupted and the family is broken because of financial stress, worst case, parents go to prison, destroys the remaining family. So who loses? Everyone.

 

[pmclaine]

Veer_G: you have mentioned your child before, I probably didn't say it before but I will now. My condolences to you from one father to another.

Bulldog Firearms: I Don't think you get it. I hate with a passion a hypocrite. We as gun owners preach "responsible gun owners" and "guns don't kill people, people do" also to the same effect "don't blame the gun" . But with that if we as gun owners and also a society keep coming up with excuses as to why these incident keep happening one day the government will have had enough and will impose restrictions on your freedoms. You see adults that allow this to happen (trust me the intent may not be there but it was still allowed to happen) are absolutely not responsible gun owners. They need to be culled for the greater good of responsible gun owners.

I hear from time to time that the Muslims need to "police their own". Well the same thing applies here. If they are not thrown to the wolfs. If you are a responsible gun owner who would not let something like this happen on your watch then you have no worries for charges being filed against someone who did.

The belief that our rights are God given and CAN NOT be taken away is a pipe dream of biblical proportions. Our rights need to be defend from both inside and out. Cases like this are where we get laws that require all guns be stored securely at all times. No one wants that. But that is a blanket to cover the issue because people have a bleeding heart for the family due to the loss of a child.

W54/XM-388: You start off not to bad. You are correct in that the study I noted by the CDC that children 1-17 are most killed by something related to guns includes anything and everything. Gang banging, suicide, murder, and other incidents. But what many fail to understand that the CDC is on the verge of declaring it and epidemic (I imagine if Hillary won it would be by now). This talk induces emotional responses by the general public. Emotional responses are rarely good, as they normally lack judgement.

Failing to hold certain parties responsible for their negligence WILL cause us to loose some Freedom. It always has and it always will.

Im only taking one point out of your post as it struck a nerve with me....

Im tired of the CDC creating diseases where there are none.

People killing people through what ever means is not an epidemic, its a fact of human nature.

Obesity is not a disease in most cases. Its a lack of discipline.

Addiction to whatever is not a disease. It may be something your personality predisposes you to but that is a behavioral matter not a problem of medicine. Im sure someone with cancer sees the two conditions categorized the same and says "Okay, Ive got this thing that "happened" to me and they have this thing "they do to themselves" and fails to see the analogy.

but there is big money to be made, dependency to exploit and a potential voting block at hand so the CDC puts its shoulder to the yoke and builds big government in its addiction to receive tax money.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Im only taking one point out of your post as it struck a nerve with me....

Im tired of the CDC creating diseases where there are none.

People killing people through what ever means is not an epidemic, its a fact of human nature.

Obesity is not a disease in most cases. Its a lack of discipline.

Addiction to whatever is not a disease. It may be something your personality predisposes you to but that is a behavioral matter not a problem of medicine. Im sure someone with cancer sees the two conditions categorized the same and says "Okay, Ive got this thing that "happened" to me and they have this thing "they do to themselves" and fails to see the analogy.

but there is big money to be made, dependency to exploit and a potential voting block at hand so the CDC puts its shoulder to the yoke and builds big government in its addiction to receive tax money.

You are correct in that the CDC really has no business getting involved in the gun issue.
the anti-gun groups will put thier fingers into any place they think they can get some grip. Just like trying to get the EPA to ban lead in bullets. They have figured it out, the gun itself is a loosing battle. Attack in other areas to whittle away at the 2nd Amendment.
Like I said previously. I am absolutely sure that had Hillary won the CDC report would have been front page news and released about 4 months sooner.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Obviously you and I have different ways of thinking and are unlikely to change each others view point. I'm surprised that anyone who cares to have their eyes open has any faith in government to do the right thing.

Our government regardless of political affiliation has been murderous (and if History is not rewritten, will be remembered among Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot) domestically and abroad, has defrauded it's constituents, and progressively eroded our rights.

We need less of everything government.

Do you actually believe that criminals consider the criminal penalties for their actions? Absolutely not. The same thought process that goes through your head when you buy a lottery ticket is the same thought that is going through the head of a criminal committing a crime. You know the odds, you won't win, but you buy one anyway because there is a little part of you that thinks you're special and the odds don't apply to you and that you will win. Criminal believes he's special and won't get caught and that the odds don't apply to him. Because he won't get caught, the penalties don't matter.

You can make more laws, but it will not likely make any significant change, because the people who are careless, are careless because they believe the odds don't apply to them.

So let's say you do charge these people criminally, best case scenario, they are bankrupted and the family is broken because of financial stress, worst case, parents go to prison, destroys the remaining family. So who loses? Everyone.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on a couple points. I would bet we are a lot closer than it would seem.

 

[pmclaine]

Obviously you and I have different ways of thinking and are unlikely to change each others view point. I'm surprised that anyone who cares to have their eyes open has any faith in government to do the right thing.

Our government regardless of political affiliation has been murderous (and if History is not rewritten, will be remembered among Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot) domestically and abroad, has defrauded it's constituents, and progressively eroded our rights.

We need less of everything government.

Do you actually believe that criminals consider the criminal penalties for their actions? Absolutely not. The same thought process that goes through your head when you buy a lottery ticket is the same thought that is going through the head of a criminal committing a crime. You know the odds, you won't win, but you buy one anyway because there is a little part of you that thinks you're special and the odds don't apply to you and that you will win. Criminal believes he's special and won't get caught and that the odds don't apply to him. Because he won't get caught, the penalties don't matter.

You can make more laws, but it will not likely make any significant change, because the people who are careless, are careless because they believe the odds don't apply to them.

So let's say you do charge these people criminally, best case scenario, they are bankrupted and the family is broken because of financial stress, worst case, parents go to prison, destroys the remaining family. So who loses? Everyone.

I think its a case of there will always be the oft stated one percent that choose or are wired to not live within societies structure.

I think same for some homeless. These "End Homelessness Now" campaigns wont work. There are modern day hermits that don't want a "home" they don't want roots and they don't need that structure. Sure provide them help if they will accept it but trying to "tame" them into what we think is the proper way to structure a life is more harmful to them than the exposure to the elements.

Than there is the mental health issue which is another can of worms that the "compassionate" in their compassion leave the sufferer at risk as well as society. I fully recognize that the institutional system had its abuses but.........