Lone Peak Arms Fuzion: Cocking Issue?

FourT6and2

FourT6and2

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Feb 13, 2017
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#1
Fresh build, so I haven't shot it yet. But I saw a post on Reddit where someone was experiencing something similar, so I decided to check mine out closer. Is this normal? I reached out to LPA today but figured I'd ask here too.

When closing the bolt, there's a prominent click/detent part way through the cocking action. The firing pin does drop forward a bit and the bolt shroud kind of jiggles/rotates suddenly. After that point, everything seems normal. No slam fires. Firing pin and trigger seem to function fine. But I've not experienced this in other firearms.

Is it a function of how the Fuzion was designed?

Trigger is Bix'n Andy Tacsport Pro with standard sear.

Video. Turn your sound on:

 
#2
If I were smarter I’d suggest sear engagement and/or firing pin drag, but those are just words I’ve read.

Have you:
  • Measured the distance from sear to pin as per Bullet Central? Allegedly you need a medium (standard) sear.
  • Played with sear engagement or pull weights on the trigger at all?
  • Tried another trigger?
I don’t have a Lone Peak, but my Bix triggers don’t do this in any of my actions.
 
#3
Did it with mine (BnA Pro-X trigger) and I think the click/jump just has to do with the top of the bolt going down the ramp. I can see where the base of the bolt handle is interacting with that sloped part of the action. I don't think it has anything to do with the trigger in my completely uneducated opinion.
 
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#5
TheOE800 said:
If I were smarter I’d suggest sear engagement and/or firing pin drag, but those are just words I’ve read.

Have you:
  • Measured the distance from sear to pin as per Bullet Central? Allegedly you need a medium (standard) sear.
  • Played with sear engagement or pull weights on the trigger at all?
  • Tried another trigger?
I don’t have a Lone Peak, but my Bix triggers don’t do this in any of my actions.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've measured according to Bullet Central's instructions. The trigger comes with the appropriate sear.

I did try adjusting the trigger engagements and pull weight according to instructions. It seems to be adjusted properly, but either way, that doesn't change what you're seeing in the video.

I have not tried another trigger yet. I think I have a Jewell somewhere.

I think what's happening is specific to the action and not the trigger.
 
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#6
NateVA said:
Did it with mine (BnA Pro-X trigger) and I think the click/jump just has to do with the top of the bolt going down the ramp. I can see where the base of the bolt handle is interacting with that sloped part of the action. I don't think it has anything to do with the trigger in my completely uneducated opinion.
Click to expand...

I think you're talking about the extraction cam cut into the receiver? Or maybe you're talking about the detent cut into the rear of the bolt itself, that the cocking pin ramps into/out of? But yes, I think it's happening right as the bolt slides into/past that cam. But my Defiance's primary extraction cam/cutout is similar and yet it doesn't do this. Weird. Still waiting to hear back from LPA.
 
#7
FourT6and2 said:
I think you're talking about the extraction cam cut into the receiver? Or maybe you're talking about the detent cut into the rear of the bolt itself, that the cocking pin ramps into/out of? But yes, I think it's happening right as the bolt slides into/past that cam. But my Defiance's primary extraction cam/cutout is similar and yet it doesn't do this. Weird. Still waiting to hear back from LPA.
Click to expand...
I'll be interested to know if it's a bad thing. I'm assuming it's not but my bolt does the exact same thing as yours on mine.
 
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#8
Sure looks like it’s the bolt detent to keep it from easily rotating to fired outside the action.
From what I can gather from the vid it’s just fine. Looks like the shroud isn’t so tight that it can get dirty and impeded the firing pins release so some might make the argument that it’s preferred.

Edit, you should be able to remove the bolt and see if there is any wiggle in it outside the action easily enough if it is the detent: does it wiggle while staying in the detent
 
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#10
spife7980 said:
Sure looks like it’s the bolt detent to keep it from easily rotating to fired outside the action.
From what I can gather from the vid it’s just fine. Looks like the shroud isn’t so tight that it can get dirty and impeded the firing pins release so some might make the argument that it’s preferred.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I suppose it could be the bolt detent. Maybe there's some wiggle room built into the bolt, so to speak, between the detent and where the trigger sear engages, so there's a wide margin of error for what triggers will or won't work?
 
#12
spife7980 said:
Sure looks like it’s the bolt detent to keep it from easily rotating to fired outside the action.
From what I can gather from the vid it’s just fine. Looks like the shroud isn’t so tight that it can get dirty and impeded the firing pins release so some might make the argument that it’s preferred.

Edit, you should be able to remove the bolt and see if there is any wiggle in it outside the action easily enough if it is the detent: does it wiggle while staying in the detent
Click to expand...
Mine has no wiggle while in the detent at all, though it comes out of the detent easily just because the detent is so shallow. I assume that's intended though.
 
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#15
NateVA said:
Did they ever reply to you?
Click to expand...

Yeah:

"We have a cocking piece that has slightly longer sear engagement. I could send you one of those to try. From watching the video this and not having the action in house this would be the first thing that I would try."

I then asked what they thought was actually happening.

"My guess is the cocking piece is too short in the sear engagement and that's what is causing it to free fall until it rests on the trigger sear."
 
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#16
FourT6and2 said:
Yeah:

"We have a cocking piece that has slightly longer sear engagement. I could send you one of those to try. From watching the video this and not having the action in house this would be the first thing that I would try."

I then asked what they thought was actually happening.

"My guess is the cocking piece is too short in the sear engagement and that's what is causing it to free fall until it rests on the trigger sear."
Click to expand...
That's interesting. I wonder if I should reach out too since mine does the same thing and I just assumed it was fine. I could throw my TT Special that I keep as a backup on the action to see if it does the same thing to check first though.
 
#19
NateVA said:
That's even more puzzling then since my trigger is also a BnA Tacsport Pro-X and does do it. I reached out to LP so we'll see if they tell me the same thing.
Click to expand...

I would reach out to LP.

Travis Stevens of TS Customs builds on A LOT of LP Fuzions, so if he's your gunsmith (or even if he isn't), he may be worth contacting as well.
 
#20
kthomas said:
I would reach out to LP.

Travis Stevens of TS Customs builds on A LOT of LP Fuzions, so if he's your gunsmith (or even if he isn't), he may be worth contacting as well.
Click to expand...
I wonder if they'll be able to help without having it in hand. A month or two ago when I reached out to them about whether there were any quirks I needed to know about using a BnA trigger in their actions (since they're built around TT triggers apparently) the guy I talked to on the phone said he had no experience with BnA triggers in their actions. I'll reach out to Travis as well though. And I guess I'll stop being lazy, take out the BnA, and see if it does the same thing with my TT Special.
 
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#21
I took off the BnA and threw on my TT. The bolt behaves exactly the same way with both triggers. And if anything there's the slightest bit more firing pin fall with the TT. Either it's supposed to be that way or there's an issue with the bolt. We'll see.
 
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#22
NateVA said:
I took off the BnA and threw on my TT. The bolt behaves exactly the same way with both triggers. And if anything there's the slightest bit more firing pin fall with the TT. Either it's supposed to be that way or there's an issue with the bolt. We'll see.
Click to expand...

LP will definitely take care of you.

Keep us updated.
 
#23
kthomas said:
LP will definitely take care of you.

Keep us updated.
Click to expand...
I'm still on the fence as to whether it's really abnormal. If it is then it would imply there were some number of cocking pieces or whatever's an issue that got sent out. Because three people in this thread including me and the OP report the same thing. LP replied to me but was probably a bit confused and only clarified what was said to OP. So I followed up with a straight up question of whether the bolt/firing pin behavior displayed in the video is abnormal. Once I get a reply to that we'll find out.
 
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#25
NateVA said:
I'm still on the fence as to whether it's really abnormal. If it is then it would imply there were some number of cocking pieces or whatever's an issue that got sent out. Because three people in this thread including me and the OP report the same thing. LP replied to me but was probably a bit confused and only clarified what was said to OP. So I followed up with a straight up question of whether the bolt/firing pin behavior displayed in the video is abnormal. Once I get a reply to that we'll find out.
Click to expand...

Right? How can the cocking piece be too short in some but not too short in others, with the same trigger...
 
#26
Here's another idea. If this happens with one trigger, but not another, put the two triggers next to each other. If the edges/faces of the sear that contacts the cocking piece line up with each other on both triggers when you align the trigger pin holes, then it can't be that particular clearance that is at fault.

But if this phenomenon happens regardless of the trigger, then I can see it being a cocking piece that's too short. But then why is a manufacturer sending out 700-pattern actions with short cocking pieces?
 
#27
FourT6and2 said:
But if this phenomenon happens regardless of the trigger, then I can see it being a cocking piece that's too short. But then why is a manufacturer sending out 700-pattern actions with short cocking pieces?
Click to expand...
I followed up with videos/pictures emailed to ask if it really is abnormal bolt behavior. I think the occam's razor is that it's not actually an issue and the person who replied to you was just saying things. We'll know for sure when I get a reply to my followup.
 
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#32
ForgeValley said:
I've got 1000s of rounds on mine, no issues with my TT. Never even noticed it before this thread. 😂
Click to expand...
Thank you.

If we squint enough at our firearms, we can always find things we don’t like.

Whether these things negatively effect firearm usage is another discussion.

Running bolts extremely slow is the action version of bore scope hypochondria — “But how does it shoot?”

-Stan
 
#33
Based on their reply to me just now (as well as @ForgeValley saying his does it too with a TT) I think they just thought you had a problem with it and tried to make you happy. Seems like a case of good customer service looking like validation of a problem that probably doesn't exist. At least that's my current thoughts on it.
 
#34
stanley_white said:
Thank you.

If we squint enough at our firearms, we can always find things we don’t like.

Whether these things negatively effect firearm usage is another discussion.

Running bolts extremely slow is the action version of bore scope hypochondria — “But how does it shoot?”

-Stan
Click to expand...
To be fair, the click in the OP’s video is not a silent hitch on close. It’s a heck of a snap. I think most would assume that isn’t correct and I’m figuring it’s not. We’ll see when @FourT6and2 gives an update.
 
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#35
stanley_white said:
Thank you.

If we squint enough at our firearms, we can always find things we don’t like.

Whether these things negatively effect firearm usage is another discussion.

Running bolts extremely slow is the action version of bore scope hypochondria — “But how does it shoot?”

-Stan
Click to expand...

It's not really about running the bolt too slow or looking for a problem that isn't there. When you run the bolt at normal speed there is still a very prominent audible and tactile click—like a trigger break—half way through closing the bolt. It's not a smooth action. It's like hitting a speed bump. That's why I started running the bolt slow to see what was going on and discovered the firing pin/cocking piece is pretty much "free falling" until it hits the sear.

Is that ok? I don't know. All I know is my Defianc doesn't do it. My Impact doens't do it. And a regular Rem. 700 doesn't do it.
 
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#36
wade2big said:
To be fair, the click in the OP’s video is not a silent hitch on close. It’s a heck of a snap. I think most would assume that isn’t correct and I’m figuring it’s not. We’ll see when we get an update.
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly. When you run the bolt at normal speed, it's still very much there. It's more than a small "click" lol. It's a rather abrupt and violent snap. So much so, that the bolt shroud and bolt handle actually move.
 
#37
Also, when opening the bolt to extract... it's not a smooth extraction either. The same point where the snap happens on close, it happens on open as well. So opening the bolt feels like three separate motions. A bit awkward.
 
#38
FourT6and2 said:
Yes, exactly. When you run the bolt at normal speed, it's still very much there. It's more than a small "click" lol. It's a rather abrupt and violent snap. So much so, that the bolt shroud and bolt handle actually move.
Click to expand...
When just dryfiring and running the bolt normally I can't feel it at all but you did get me curious so I went back to one of the only actual reviews on Youtube of a LP Fuzion. Side note, I really wish there were more in depth video reviews of various actions. Seems like there's next to nothing for most.

Timestamp 5:56 you can see his has the same snap on bolt closing if I'm seeing things right. And the video was posted 2 years ago. I think it's just how the bolt is.

 
#40
FourT6and2 said:
Yes, exactly. When you run the bolt at normal speed, it's still very much there. It's more than a small "click" lol. It's a rather abrupt and violent snap. So much so, that the bolt shroud and bolt handle actually move.
Click to expand...

That definitely doesn't sound right.

Curious to hear what the final outcome from LP is on this.
 
#41
My take: So as the cocking piece is being handed off to the sear from detent, there's enough difference in position you're getting some fall as it's transitioning. This happens with every action that slightly decocks upon bolt closure. This decocking hand off usually happens in a much smoother fashion than what you're experiencing.
Do you hear or feel any spring bind inside the bolt body? Have you disassembled the bolt and cleaned off all the grease? I typically remove all the grease and add just a slight bit of oil to the spring. If you have a teslong bore scope, look inside the bolt body, see if there are any tooling marks, rough surfaces, or indication that the fp sprig could be binding up during bolt closure. Inspect the bolt body where the detent is cut, look at the cocking piece, are there any burrs or rough machining?

Lone Peak usually does a pretty good job of QC, and the are pretty solid actions. I've had issues with a titanium action several years back, but the lug setback was likely my own fault with the high psi loads however brass showed no psi signs, why I don't use titanium with magnum cases anymore.

I have a fuzion, using a BnA tac sport single stage, and I have virtually seamless had off to the sear, pin doesn't over cock, or cock on close much at all. A TT trigger will usually experience slightly more decocking than a BnA, as I believe the sear sits just slightly further rear ward, by about 005-008 when I've measured, but that was different actions.

The nice thing about action with hangers, you can change the position of the trigger, tuning the hand off relationship to the trigger, the only downfall is it can decrease your firing pin fall.
 
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#42
NateVA said:
When just dryfiring and running the bolt normally I can't feel it at all but you did get me curious so I went back to one of the only actual reviews on Youtube of a LP Fuzion. Side note, I really wish there were more in depth video reviews of various actions. Seems like there's next to nothing for most.

Timestamp 5:56 you can see his has the same snap on bolt closing if I'm seeing things right. And the video was posted 2 years ago. I think it's just how the bolt is.

Click to expand...


Go to 8:13 in the video. He runs the bolt a few times and it looks pretty smooth to me. Not at all like mine.
 
#43
4O6shootist said:
My take: So as the cocking piece is being handed off to the sear from detent, there's enough difference in position you're getting some fall as it's transitioning. This happens with every action that slightly decocks upon bolt closure. This decocking hand off usually happens in a much smoother fashion than what you're experiencing.
Click to expand...
Makes sense.

4O6shootist said:
Do you hear or feel any spring bind inside the bolt body?
Click to expand...
I don't notice any.

4O6shootist said:
Have you disassembled the bolt and cleaned off all the grease?
Click to expand...
Yeah, first thing I did was clean and re-lube.

4O6shootist said:
I typically remove all the grease and add just a slight bit of oil to the spring. If you have a teslong bore scope, look inside the bolt body, see if there are any tooling marks, rough surfaces, or indication that the fp sprig could be binding up during bolt closure. Inspect the bolt body where the detent is cut, look at the cocking piece, are there any burrs or rough machining?
Click to expand...
I'll take another look

4O6shootist said:
I have a fuzion, using a BnA tac sport single stage, and I have virtually seamless had off to the sear, pin doesn't over cock, or cock on close much at all. A TT trigger will usually experience slightly more decocking than a BnA, as I believe the sear sits just slightly further rear ward, by about 005-008 when I've measured, but that was different actions.

The nice thing about action with hangers, you can change the position of the trigger, tuning the hand off relationship to the trigger, the only downfall is it can decrease your firing pin fall.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I do like hangers sometimes. I'm not a huge fan of BnA, though. But I figured I'd give this one a try. My Jewel triggers have run flawlessly for almost a decade. I had a problem with an older BnA design before they came out with the Tacsports.

I think your assessment makes sense. The "hand off" to the sear has a bit of a gap, causing a bit of an abrupt transition.
 
#45
FourT6and2 said:
Makes sense.


I don't notice any.


Yeah, first thing I did was clean and re-lube.


I'll take another look


Yeah, I do like hangers sometimes. I'm not a huge fan of BnA, though. But I figured I'd give this one a try. My Jewel triggers have run flawlessly for almost a decade. I had a problem with an older BnA design before they came out with the Tacsports.

I think your assessment makes sense. The "hand off" to the sear has a bit of a gap, causing a bit of an abrupt transition.
Click to expand...
Watching the video a bit closer, it could be some sort of an interference with the bolt shroud, like it's hanging or dragging on bolt some where and is trying to rotate with the bolt, and then as the cocking piece hands off to sear, it's dislodging and snaps back to where it's supposed to be.
 
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#46
4O6shootist said:
Watching the video a bit closer, it could be some sort of an interference with the bolt shroud, like it's hanging or dragging on bolt some where and is trying to rotate with the bolt, and then as the cocking piece hands off to sear, it's dislodging and snaps back to where it's supposed to be.
Click to expand...
this was my thought also...
 
#48
4O6shootist said:
Watching the video a bit closer, it could be some sort of an interference with the bolt shroud, like it's hanging or dragging on bolt some where and is trying to rotate with the bolt, and then as the cocking piece hands off to sear, it's dislodging and snaps back to where it's supposed to be.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I don't know how or where the shroud could be hanging up on something, but I'll have a closer look.
 
#50
I'm going to see how @FourT6and2 new cocking piece changes things before bothering Travis about it. It's a very confusing mix of replies in this thread. Some saying theirs do it and it's no issue, some saying it could be 2-3 different issues, and two saying theirs don't do it at all. Very hard to make sense of it all and LP's replies to me weren't that illuminating. They offered to check it out if I wanted since they want to give good customer service but what I really wanted to know was whether it's actually unacceptable bolt behavior in the first place.
 
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