"Long Distance Record Broken"

[FALex]

I was reading on barfcom this morning, and ran across this nugget: the "story".

Essentially, guy posts, "So a friend's uncle just beat the long-range shot record." Of course, guy offers zero in the way of details. Just throws out there that some random guy who owns a large, private ranch in TX beat the LR record.

From listening to folks like @lowlight and David Tubb speak, there's some requirements that need to be met, such as a limited number of shots taken to make contact, which makes sense. None of that was posted, obviously.

I guess most any dude with a large bore and a TACCOM can lob enough rounds to finally make contact, hence the need for some requirements.

Any of you guys read or hear about this "record breaking" event?

 

[oneshot.onehit]

Theres a set platform of rules to be followed if you’re attempting the World Record event that takes place at various locations/events.

Not for the above record but.
I know a friend of mine and his crew did some testing and pushed the limits hard with using a rifle laying prone on the ground and hit a target this weekend at 7070 yards with limited rounds, a 416.

Its his personal best and they are about pushing the edge in our industry.

Cheers

 

[1moaoff]

I just set a new world record flipping my cigarette butt!

 

[oneshot.onehit]

Dam
I didn’t realize we were talking about cigarettes and distance, well you got me beat on that one. But the crew that was doing all the testing and pushing the limits was not claiming any world records either, it looks like the internet decided that.


Cheers

 

[FALex]

Theres a set platform of rules to be followed if you’re attempting the World Record event that takes place at various locations/events.

Not for the above record but.
I know a friend of mine and his crew did some testing and pushed the limits hard with using a rifle laying prone on the ground and hit a target this weekend at 7070 yards with limited rounds, a 416.

Its his personal best and they are about pushing the edge in our industry.

Cheers

Actually, it has to be the same guy. The post stated that the target was at 7070. If you click the link to the story in my OP, you'll see a picture of the guy. Granted, "doing some testing" and breaking the "long range record" are galaxies apart. Maybe what he should've said was that they hit a target that was farther out than what the current record is. The way he posted it made it sound official.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

I’m not going to make a big deal about this, but the story or thread you pulled up had a title - So a friend’s uncle just beat the long range shot record. And all I saw was a picture of a shooter with his rifle. The title on the thread sounded more to me like a buddy is jacked that his friends uncle made a long shot farther then any one else. I didn’t see the shooter claiming any fame.

There were probably a few rifles/ shooters that attempted the 7070 target this last week which was more then likely a 1 moa target and I know their goal was to hit it within 25 or less rounds. In time the whole story will be released with details.

The folks involved have achieved the 2 mile stuff repeatedly then messed around with the 3 mile this last spring and now the 4 mile. One for sure was using a 416 Barrett.

Cheers

 

[jasent]

Go team GPG. Not a record of any sort but still cool

 

[7mmShooter]

Think Paul was using his usual 416 setup he won KO2M with if I recall. Congratulations to him and Team GPG on another personal best

 

[FALex]

Okay, so at least a couple of you are aware of this deal. So we can clarify, were these guys practicing or was there an actual record broken?

I appreciate the follow up. It's been a couple of days since that guy posted over on barf, but he has still failed to bring any details whatsoever into his OP. It's stupid when people do that kind of shit.

 

[Skunkworx]

On facebook they mentioned it took 69 shots to get on target

 

[tna9001]

On facebook they mentioned it took 69 shots to get on target

Guess if you shoot at something long enough you'll hit it eventually.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

This was for testing purposes and personal best in recreational shooting combined with team work within the GPS crew . The 69 rounds was probably a combination of the shooters and rifles used I know Paul said he was hoping to connect within 25 rounds with his rifle. Paul and Derek were spotting and calling corrections when one of the crew connected. By the way the flight time was averaging 24 seconds to impact. They also were using the high tech camera system that was used for the KO2M events the last few years and also utilized 2 forward observers as well.

It was not about breaking any world records you seem to have a hard time believing that.

It won’t be long and the whole story and video will be released

Cheers

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The following did not happen during this event......(It was not designed nor setup to be such thing...RDT&E purposes!!!)

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[LawnMM]

So aside from taking 25 rounds to hit a 7k yard target, what more to the story is there?

I think ELR is getting kinda stupid in this regard, just my opinion. A 70" target? We're shooting at cars and claiming it's an achievement.

I guess it is on some level but we're way past practical. Should all be done with full size IPSCs. If you can't hit one in 3 rounds past 2k maybe that's the current 'practical' limit for ELR and real life engagements.

I think the target sizes have grown faster than the equipment and ability levels. We're talking about an ELR "meatball match".

 

[oneshot.onehit]

Their just pushing the limits as well as the industry behind it. Is it practical and does it make any sense, for the majority no, 70” seems huge but it is still like aiming and hitting any other 1 moa target at a given distance. All of this seems nonsense and wasted info that some relate to, at the end of the day it helped the great majority within our shooting community its the time and money spent here and at multiple events that folks have spent testing and shooting events and demanding improvents in our manufacturers that has improved the equipment, components and electronics that many folks depend on to hit targets at 200,700, 1400 or 2400 yards today.

I still love shooting the 260 at steel out to 1300 every summer and pushing the 416 past 3000 yards. Target preference is to each his own We just finished the Spear Point ELR event not to long ago and they use a lot of IPSC targets which are cool in a ton of wind, Hell everything we had to shoot at Ft. McCoy was all unknown distance IPSCs out to 1100 meters. But at the end of the day target size and at any challenging distance is fun. I can never understand why folks prefer to pick apart and try to break up the shooting community versus just enjoying their selected discipline in it that they find a good challenge.

Cheers
JH

 

[gnochi]

I agree, I think there’s some value in standardizing targets to practical things.

1. IPSC, cold bore, 3 consecutive hits
2. IPSC, cold bore, 1 sighter, 1 hit, target moves at 10mph directly right or left after the sighter’s impact
3. 36x36, cold bore, 3 consecutive hits
4. Prius Challenge (57.9” x 180”, Prius profile; alt: a scrapped Prius), cold bore, 3 consecutive hits (if you’re going to pick a materiel target...)

 

[Ledzep]

I'm sure at least 1 vehicle under 440" long has been hit directly by 16" gun fire from a naval bombardment at 20-25 miles that probably trumps all of these records....

 

[jasent]

I remember a time when folks scoffed at people shooting 1 mile. I remember all the folks that said why would anyone want to shoot at a 3’ target at 1.5 miles. I remember all the folks shooting at these ranges being called liars.

If it’s not your cup of tea so be it but why shit in someone else’s tea?
They got similar reactions with the 6k shoot. I don’t understand why people like to tear others down.

 

[golden_311]

I don’t see it as tearing them down. I think it’s great. I shot a 30” target at 3300 yards screwing around on the ranch one day and it took me 25 shots. It was a blast. I wouldn’t be going around posting about it being awesome though.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

Exactly

So this whole thread and all of the good and bad was started just because a Buddy who was all jacked up and thought it was the best stuff ever made a thread or discussion on another site about his friends Uncle and with that, some folks got all irritated because they couldn’t find any facts on it. Which in turn was the demeanor and mind set of the crew anyways because it was about testing and a bunch of guys doing some recreational shooting. Just messing around pushing what most say can’t be done with a plan and goal and with no darn record to be had.



Cheers

 

[gnochi]

I see ~70 shots to hit a 70 inch plate at 7000 yards about the same as my BIL using his duty pistol to hit a steel chicken at 200 yards, in about the same number of shots. Cool? Yes. Fun? Yes. Record-breaking? Only if it’s statistically significant, which neither case really is.

 

[John Glidewell]

Exactly

So this whole thread and all of the good and bad was started just because a Buddy who was all jacked up and thought it was the best stuff ever made a thread or discussion on another site about his friends Uncle and with that, some folks got all irritated because they couldn’t find any facts on it. Which in turn was the demeanor and mind set of the crew anyways because it was about testing and a bunch of guys doing some recreational shooting. Just messing around pushing what most say can’t be done with a plan and goal and with no darn record to be had.



Cheers

yeah, makes me wonder if people actually read or just react?

 

[LawnMM]

So this whole thread and all of the good and bad was started just because a Buddy who was all jacked up and thought it was the best stuff ever made a thread or discussion on another site about his friends Uncle and with that, some folks got all irritated because they couldn’t find any facts on it.

If you don't want people asking questions or looking at it as anything more than "we had a great time doing xyz" maybe don't start the conversation with 'Long distance record broken'

Just sayin'

 

[jasent]

If you don't want people asking questions or looking at it as anything more than "we had a great time doing xyz" maybe don't start the conversation with 'Long distance record broken'

Just sayin'

Falex started this thread not osoh

 

[LawnMM]

I'm addressing how the thread came about, who actually hit submit is irrelevant

 

[TripleBull]

As long as a shooter tells the truth, I don't care how many shots he lobs. At each new distance, somebody has to get it all started. And I don't even care if the target size is moment of barn. Eventually, we'll see someone hit a smaller target in less shots, etc. Who knows, maybe someone will hit cold bore plus two on a "legal" target and all the sudden, it will be a bonafide record.

I shoulda made my handle Lobster.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Okay, so at least a couple of you are aware of this deal. So we can clarify, were these guys practicing or was there an actual record broken?

I appreciate the follow up. It's been a couple of days since that guy posted over on barf, but he has still failed to bring any details whatsoever into his OP. It's stupid when people do that kind of shit.

As one of the guys that helped with this project, I can tell you categorically that nobody that was there is claiming this as any kind of record. While getting a hit on target was cool, we were there to explore ballistics and techniques at stupidly long ranges. Keep in mind that there is essentially zero actual data on shooting at these ranges and seeing what happens as you get further out helps you understand what is happening at closer ranges too.

If you think you can take a ballistics solver that is fed data for shooting at up to two miles and have it kick out a solution that works at 4 miles, you have another thing coming. In statistics this is referred to as "extrapolating beyond the range of data" and usually doesn't work particularly well.

Some of the lessons we learned out there were stunning to all of us and we will be going out again with more gear so we can better understand some of what is going on.

-Alex

 

[FALex]

As one of the guys that helped with this project, I can tell you categorically that nobody that was there is claiming this as any kind of record. While getting a hit on target was cool, we were there to explore ballistics and techniques at stupidly long ranges. Keep in mind that there is essentially zero actual data on shooting at these ranges and seeing what happens as you get further out helps you understand what is happening at closer ranges too.

If you think you can take a ballistics solver that is fed data for shooting at up to two miles and have it kick out a solution that works at 4 miles, you have another thing coming. In statistics this is referred to as "extrapolating beyond the range of data" and usually doesn't work particularly well.

Some of the lessons we learned out there were stunning to all of us and we will be going out again with more gear so we can better understand some of what is going on.

-Alex

I love it. Can't get the original poster to respond with details, but along comes a few different people (from a different forum altogether), with more facts. Thanks man.

The OP over on barf said it was a record-breaking shot. It sounds like it was, just not on the official scale like he made it out to be.

Was the shooter using .416 or a .375 or am I missing the mark completely?

Thanks for the follow up.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

It was the furthest anyone has hit a target once with small arms by about 1000 yards. No external organization will recognize that as a record but that certainly hasn't stopped people from making such claims in the past. Previously the same group of guys tagged a 6000 yard target and didn't claim that was any kind of record either. None of us regard this as a record for a variety of reasons but primarily because we couldn't put follow up shots into it in short order. That said, by the third day, Paul had a cold bore shot that was only about 10 feet off target so what we learned was rapidly applicable. The target was only 1.25MOA and while that meant it was physically large it was a tiny target at that range. In some lighting conditions it was extremely hard to even see at the magnification allowable by mirage.

416

-Alex

 

[Lowlight]

The ELR Standard currently being used is:

Cold bore, 3 consecutive hits on a 36X36 Target

If you hit the first, second and miss the third it does not count

You are not allowed to practice prior, and you only get two attempts a day with a minimum of 4 hours between attempts

you can train the day before, but you cannot warm up, has to be Cold

Only this counts as a World Record, and it has be witnessed and recorded.

 

[Spartan67]

As one of the guys that helped with this project, I can tell you categorically that nobody that was there is claiming this as any kind of record. While getting a hit on target was cool, we were there to explore ballistics and techniques at stupidly long ranges. Keep in mind that there is essentially zero actual data on shooting at these ranges and seeing what happens as you get further out helps you understand what is happening at closer ranges too.

If you think you can take a ballistics solver that is fed data for shooting at up to two miles and have it kick out a solution that works at 4 miles, you have another thing coming. In statistics this is referred to as "extrapolating beyond the range of data" and usually doesn't work particularly well.

Some of the lessons we learned out there were stunning to all of us and we will be going out again with more gear so we can better understand some of what is going on.

-Alex

Keep us updated on this Alex. Thats one of the best things about the Hide, freely sharing new data, and knowledge to help us all shoot better.

 

[Lowlight]

You can tune the ballistics at distance,

Sure you cannot have a 100-yard zero and expect the results to work, but there is software out that works better than others at these distances.

If you follow this stuff, guys are getting repeatable results at a distance you just have to fine-tune and control the variables you can control to the Nth degree.

The biggest issue is the load, the verticle spreads at those distances are crazy. You can be damn close to hitting the target, like inches, and the next shot will be a full mil off and hit yards away.

The wind is the main factor because most of the bullet's flight is trans to subsonic so the wind has a much bigger effect.

This was all said about a mile too, now everyone can slice a mile off like we used to at 1k.

 

[Long Range 338]

At what point does the software solution become more like artillery? G1, G7, etc. The military obviously has calculators for artillery and battleships as they shoot very long ranges accurately. Is this is the realm of 6DOF or more along the lines of launching missiles?

 

[Lowlight]

Well ya,

These guys are tied to AB which is basic 3DOF... it's never been considered the gold standard for beyond transonic, FFS has been, as well as ColdBore because they are Pejsa based, not McCoy. Pejsa pokes a ton of holes in 3 DOF stuff, unfortunately, he is dead so it stopped being discussed in any widespread meaningful way. Not to mention, his books are hard to find and mostly out of print.

The Pitch and Yaw are fudged as 3DOF cannot caliculate it properly as it doesn't exist natively in the programs.

In Point Mass there is no bullet, if you look at ColdBore from Patagonia, there is a bullet and the software knows before and after where the bullet was, and where it is going. I would use CB 1 before AB, to be honest. My understanding Eduardo has expressed CB to be more accurate in these 2 Mile Events, but used by few.

McCoy has known faults, even Hazelton has talked about this at length, he is a NASA guy who repaired the missing and broken elements of McCoy, where AB embraces it. That is not to say you can't get AB to work, just remember, when they won their events, they showed up early and rented Whittington to True the software prior. That was a huge point of contention which resulted in rules changes. Once those rules were changed you saw others excel. Brantley didn't even use software when he won, I have a picture of the data Team Manners was using and it mainly hardcopy.

Doping a rifle has the benefit of including every single variable known to ballistics, vs fudging or guessing at the parts that were filled in (semi) blindly.

If you need 100 Mils to hit a target and you actually dope the rifle at distance, it's not 100 Mils + SD + CE + AJ, it's just 100. This is the mistake shooters make, they dope the rifle and then turn on these variables which adds to the solution. That creates traveling variables, vs having hard reliable data.

 

[Long Range 338]

I'm trying to tread lightly here because I have total appreciation for the KO2M and all the competitors involved. They are pushing the limits beyond what anybody thought was possible just a few short years ago. GPG and others pushing the limits, testing theories, documenting results, etc. is only going to expand the knowledge of the subject. I have no doubt we will all benefit from this data in the future.

Social media has turned every weekend outing into a "new record". Of course people get excited shooting beyond a mile and getting hits. Of course they want to share it as well for all to enjoy. I've grown weary of reading all of the so called "records" that get posted because without any type of organization or oversight it is the same as any other idiot taking his hunting rifle and hitting a target the size of a car at 2500+ yards after 150 rounds of spray and pray. Great for fun and promoting the sport if done safely, but completely worthless as a means of developing ELR in any kind of meaningful way.

ELR is somewhat of a money game is it not? The cost just to show up and participate is prohibitive. An outfit such as AB has a definite advantage by being able to sponsor a large number of specialized experts and grouping them together. Watching Team Manners take the title and doing so without all the electronics gives me hope that it isn't just a money game.

I know the different ballistic calculators have been discussed to death, but the artillery example was a serious question. I'm sure the gov't stuff is classified or something but speaking in generic terms would it be considered 6DOF or is it even more complex than that? Once we start lobbing projectiles beyond 2 miles has it not become artillery? Not that it matters just that my curiosity has been piqued.

I read the thread of bashing AB started when 4DOF was released and it was very informative concerning the different methodologies and nuances that each system uses for trajectory prediction. It certainly was a small peak behind the curtain of the programmers and their priorities. In fact it was so enlightening I ended up purchasing CB and going down that rabbit hole...

Frank thanks for the response, it was thought provoking and educational. Is it public knowledge what type of software is used for artillery?

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Well ya,

These guys are tied to AB which is basic 3DOF... it's never been considered the gold standard for beyond transonic, FFS has been, as well as ColdBore because they are Pejsa based, not McCoy. Pejsa pokes a ton of holes in 3 DOF stuff, unfortunately, he is dead so it stopped being discussed in any widespread meaningful way. Not to mention, his books are hard to find and mostly out of print.

The Pitch and Yaw are fudged as 3DOF cannot caliculate it properly as it doesn't exist natively in the programs.

In Point Mass there is no bullet, if you look at ColdBore from Patagonia, there is a bullet and the software knows before and after where the bullet was, and where it is going. I would use CB 1 before AB, to be honest. My understanding Eduardo has expressed CB to be more accurate in these 2 Mile Events, but used by few.

McCoy has known faults, even Hazelton has talked about this at length, he is a NASA guy who repaired the missing and broken elements of McCoy, where AB embraces it. That is not to say you can't get AB to work, just remember, when they won their events, they showed up early and rented Whittington to True the software prior. That was a huge point of contention which resulted in rules changes. Once those rules were changed you saw others excel. Brantley didn't even use software when he won, I have a picture of the data Team Manners was using and it mainly hardcopy.

Doping a rifle has the benefit of including every single variable known to ballistics, vs fudging or guessing at the parts that were filled in (semi) blindly.

If you need 100 Mils to hit a target and you actually dope the rifle at distance, it's not 100 Mils + SD + CE + AJ, it's just 100. This is the mistake shooters make, they dope the rifle and then turn on these variables which adds to the solution. That creates traveling variables, vs having hard reliable data.

We didn't change any rules in response to AB practicing at the Whittington Center. The rule since the first year was that no practicing was allowed on our course of fire. In part for fairness and to a larger extent because the only times the targets are hung is during the match and the day prior when me, Walt and whoever we can con into helping us are frequently downrange dealing with logistics. This year we actually had the south flats ELR range open for practice for everyone.

I don't think I've ever heard Eduardo backing Coldbore. I think he is fond of Patagonia within certain constraints though. The highest ranking shooters using CB or Patagonia were 27th and 28th but only 11% of shooters used either of those so they were not strongly represented.

Personally I think that we are into the realm in which point mass solvers are simply not cut out for the job. So far we only have one shooter at Ko2M using a CFD solution though and he is generating the meshes himself and running solutions that would take computational days on a handheld. His solution is pulling from historic and predicted wind values and modeling the entire environment though so it massive overkill for (relatively) short times of flight at only 2 miles. It is designed for rocket trajectory prediction not shooting so it is not exactly a solver that most shooters should or even could use.

Given how far the GPUs have come in phones, I've been surprised that nobody has put anything out that does a less intense CFD calculation. I suspect we will see it before too long though.

-Alex

 

[THEIS]

I don't think I've ever heard Eduardo backing Coldbore. I think he is fond of Patagonia within certain constraints though. The highest ranking shooters using CB or Patagonia were 27th and 28th but only 11% of shooters used either of those so they were not strongly represented.

-Alex

Hi,

Coldbore is the ballistic program from Patagonia Ballistics...they are not 2 separate entities....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lowlight]

Dude,

You had teams drop out of the event because of AB renting the place, shooting a few yards off to the side is the same thing. The conditions at Whittington are very specific and practicing on the range yields dividends. It was a dollar issue as well as it's not cheap to rent the place. Certain groups refuse to participate, that is a fact and you want to debate the influence this had, be my guest, but I speak to them candidly vs be politically influenced.

Being able to practice on the property in the correct direction has a value that not all teams were afforded due to the money and restrictions of what you can rent for this. If you want to argue they were not shooting from the same firing point, you have no idea what you are talking about and should learn a thing a two about the shooting. It would be like saying I didn't violate the rules because there was a barbed-wire fence line between me the actual firing point.

I get it, the practicing drama is a point of embarrassment, doesn't change the fact it matters.

Coldbore and Patagonia are the same programs...

I can post quotes from Ed to Gus in regards to CB use, not just in the US. I speak to Gus Ruiz all the time. Sure he could be blowing smoke up Gus' ass since he travels to Argentina and trains there, but I have direct quotes.

As you are aware I had a front-row seat for several of these events and had my camera rolling the entire time. I can break down every shot from where it went wrong to where it went right.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

ELR is somewhat of a money game is it not? The cost just to show up and participate is prohibitive. An outfit such as AB has a definite advantage by being able to sponsor a large number of specialized experts and grouping them together. Watching Team Manners take the title and doing so without all the electronics gives me hope that it isn't just a money game.
for artillery?

While ELR equipment is certainly not cheap, most ELR matches are cheaper to shoot than PRS. The overwhelming trend in who wins (or at least improves) is that people that shoot a bunch of matches tend to dominate. Duh... Ko2M is a terrible choice for a first match and in 2020 we will simply not accept anyone that doesn't have decent performance at ELR matches. A big part of that is that we don't want people to come all the way out to fire 6 shots and then be sent home. It isn't fun for anyone involved.

Last year, Robert lists Shooter as his solver and this year he used Hornady 4DoF. To what extend he is relying on either I couldn't tell you.

You had teams drop out of the event because of AB renting the place, shooting a few yards off to the side is the same thing. The conditions at Whittington are very specific and practicing on the range yields dividends. It was a dollar issue as well as it's not cheap to rent the place. Certain groups refuse to participate, that is a fact and you want to debate the influence this had, be my guest, but I speak to them candidly vs be politically influenced.

To the best of my knowledge AB rented time on the old ELR course which is a completely different range than ours. They shot from entirely different positions at targets nowhere near ours. Actually the firing positions for that course are close to where some of our targets are. Did they learn from their experiences? Sure. Dope is key and they know it. Did everyone else have the same opportunity? Yes. The WC has run an ELR course there for longer then we have been running Ko2M and it is pretty reasonably priced.

The other point I'd make is that we have changed the course of fire every year and nobody outside of the three of us know where most targets are going to be until the day we hang them. If they got onto the firing point at some time before the match and were shooting at the cliff we never heard anything about that. The WC wouldn't knowingly let them do it and they regularly kick people off the ranges for shooting off the ranges. When they kick people off for shooting the cliffs, they tell us and we blacklist those people for a year.

Funny, I have a license for Patagonia laying around but have no devices to run it on that I'd take into the field so I've never really played with it. I'm surprised nobody ever pointed out that I was listing it as two separate things on the equipment list...

To address something that you inferred... There is the screwy perception I see pop up on occasion that AB has control or significant influence on how we run Ko2M and it couldn't be further from the truth. We have denied pretty much every request they have made of us and several of our rules explicitly effect them to keep competition as fair as possible. Eddie, Walt and I run Ko2M at a personal financial loss so we couldn't care less who wins as long as the sport advances. The fact that AB has had a lot of top finishing shooters in Ko2M is because they are recruiting good shooters and fielding several teams (though fewer than they'd like to).

-Alex

 

[Long Range 338]

@Sandow the Heretic thank you for the response its insightful to get info from those involved as intimately as you are. Someday I may attend... as an observer most likely

 

[Huskydriver]

I'm trying to tread lightly here because I have total appreciation for the KO2M and all the competitors involved. They are pushing the limits beyond what anybody thought was possible just a few short years ago. GPG and others pushing the limits, testing theories, documenting results, etc. is only going to expand the knowledge of the subject. I have no doubt we will all benefit from this data in the future.

Social media has turned every weekend outing into a "new record". Of course people get excited shooting beyond a mile and getting hits. Of course they want to share it as well for all to enjoy. I've grown weary of reading all of the so called "records" that get posted because without any type of organization or oversight it is the same as any other idiot taking his hunting rifle and hitting a target the size of a car at 2500+ yards after 150 rounds of spray and pray. Great for fun and promoting the sport if done safely, but completely worthless as a means of developing ELR in any kind of meaningful way.

ELR is somewhat of a money game is it not? The cost just to show up and participate is prohibitive. An outfit such as AB has a definite advantage by being able to sponsor a large number of specialized experts and grouping them together. Watching Team Manners take the title and doing so without all the electronics gives me hope that it isn't just a money game.

I know the different ballistic calculators have been discussed to death, but the artillery example was a serious question. I'm sure the gov't stuff is classified or something but speaking in generic terms would it be considered 6DOF or is it even more complex than that? Once we start lobbing projectiles beyond 2 miles has it not become artillery? Not that it matters just that my curiosity has been piqued.

I read the thread of bashing AB started when 4DOF was released and it was very informative concerning the different methodologies and nuances that each system uses for trajectory prediction. It certainly was a small peak behind the curtain of the programmers and their priorities. In fact it was so enlightening I ended up purchasing CB and going down that rabbit hole...

Frank thanks for the response, it was thought provoking and educational. Is it public knowledge what type of software is used for artillery?

The army uses afatds and yes it's total abilities and functions are classified but alot of info on it is public domain

 

[Lowlight]

You don't understand what I am saying,

it's mainly a perception thing, like Walt competing in a match he works. Sure Walt is a proven ELR shooter, but he is almost always in the Top 10, qualifying to shoot the final day. perception.

It would be like me drawing a 10AM starting slot and then renting Raton to shoot before 10AM, I can start at 8AM and dope my rifle for the specific ranges and then roll into the competition. How would that look... would I have an advantage? Can't shoot there, lots of places locally, just don't say you are out there doping your rifle the same morning, what can you do?

The Manners guys used Shooter prior but used their hardcopy, as I said, I have an image of Tom and them going over the data prior to Robert's final day of shooting. I was standing over them taking pictures, just like I photographed Robert doping the wind with his hands before he went live. Look at the images I shot, no computers on the line, hardcopy.

Not really a debate, but your perception is skewed and your understanding of what people think is also lagging.

I am not inferring you bow to AB, never said that, but realize, Not saying NO is just as bad as saying Yes. It's a resource thing. Sure the guys with $80,000 thermals can spot better, after practicing on the same range for the week, and great on them for it. resources matters, But it's also a perception thing, from the outside looking in people don't like it.

If you are LOSING MONEY, that's your fuck up, I have run matches since 2003 (SHC is the longest continually running one in this space) and haven't lost money yet. I have given away my share of the money to competitors, but I have never LOST money on any event I have ever been a part of. We tried talking to you guys about running a successful match, and I don't mean from a marketing standpoint, but the excuses runneth over as to why you can't do it differently. Look at the way the PRS ELR Match in WY ran, a heck of a lot more competitors accomplishing the same thing, Spearpoint, Vallahala., et al. More shooters with more shooting in less time. When competition people run a competition it shows beyond the marketing. That said, it is a well-known event to your credit.

 

[AIAW]

Did we (the industry) ever truly define what classifies as “LR” versus “ELR”? Was it ever defined as an arbitrary number, or based on actual ballistic performance (transonic boundary for instance) of a particular cartridge? “LR” for a 22LR is quite different than “LR” for a 375CT of course. I remember a discussion about it a while back somewhere around here.

Not pertaining to this thread per se and I am certainly off-topic sort of, but is it just me that feels “LR” is a buzzword thrown around like “match chambers” and “extreme performance”?

To me, it’s a very subjective term to use universally.

 

[Lowlight]

I believe they settled on 1500 yards as ELR but for all I know some are calling 1200 ELR...

I think some F Class Ranges, (Canada) go to 1200, so it would have to be after that.

 

[gnochi]

Did we (the industry) ever truly define what classifies as “LR” versus “ELR”? Was it ever defined as an arbitrary number, or based on actual ballistic performance (transonic boundary for instance) of a particular cartridge? “LR” for a 22LR is quite different than “LR” for a 375CT of course. I remember a discussion about it a while back somewhere around here.

Not pertaining to this thread per se and I am certainly off-topic sort of, but is it just me that feels “LR” is a buzzword thrown around like “match chambers” and “extreme performance”?

To me, it’s a very subjective term to use universally.

The definition that I’ve seen the most (and makes the most sense to me) is that LR is when wind matters and ELR is when transonic behavior matters.

 

[AIAW]

I could see that being a type of definition but the two are strongly related. Even caliber isn’t a good definition (massive difference between a 308W and 300NM for instance). As it’s currently defined, equality in hit ratio is assumed between the two, for instance around 1500 yards.

I guess my point is that as data driven as longer distance shooters are, we allowed an arbitrary value to become standard across "centerfire cartridges" in general versus it being weighted against mathematics!

To me, that absolutely screams marketing by not being data-driven.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

You don't understand what I am saying,

it's mainly a perception thing, like Walt competing in a match he works. Sure Walt is a proven ELR shooter, but he is almost always in the Top 10, qualifying to shoot the final day. perception.

It would be like me drawing a 10AM starting slot and then renting Raton to shoot before 10AM, I can start at 8AM and dope my rifle for the specific ranges and then roll into the competition. How would that look... would I have an advantage? Can't shoot there, lots of places locally, just don't say you are out there doping your rifle the same morning, what can you do?

The Manners guys used Shooter prior but used their hardcopy, as I said, I have an image of Tom and them going over the data prior to Robert's final day of shooting. I was standing over them taking pictures, just like I photographed Robert doping the wind with his hands before he went live. Look at the images I shot, no computers on the line, hardcopy.

Not really a debate, but your perception is skewed and your understanding of what people think is also lagging.

I am not inferring you bow to AB, never said that, but realize, Not saying NO is just as bad as saying Yes. It's a resource thing. Sure the guys with $80,000 thermals can spot better, after practicing on the same range for the week, and great on them for it. resources matters, But it's also a perception thing, from the outside looking in people don't like it.

If you are LOSING MONEY, that's your fuck up, I have run matches since 2003 (SHC is the longest continually running one in this space) and haven't lost money yet. I have given away my share of the money to competitors, but I have never LOST money on any event I have ever been a part of. We tried talking to you guys about running a successful match, and I don't mean from a marketing standpoint, but the excuses runneth over as to why you can't do it differently. Look at the way the PRS ELR Match in WY ran, a heck of a lot more competitors accomplishing the same thing, Spearpoint, Vallahala., et al. More shooters with more shooting in less time. When competition people run a competition it shows beyond the marketing. That said, it is a well-known event to your credit.

First I'd strongly encourage anyone who wants to accuse Walter of having an unfair advantage to do so. Just please let me know in advance so I can film the response...

Of course it is a perception issue and my experience thus far is that managing perception amounts to combatting misinformation. Nearly all of that misinformation is spread by non-competitors who were never in a position to have first hand knowledge.

By running the match at a personal loss, I don't mean that the match looses money. We could pay ourselves around $1500 a day each and still easily cover operating costs. We could probably get away with jacking up match fees too if we wanted to rake in more. The proceeds go to the FCSA and are earmarked for us to do range development with. The FCSA is a non-profit and we are essentially volunteers. The FCSA rules have no issue with match directors paying themselves from match fees. We don't mostly because we want to put that money towards growing the sport. FCSA financials are all published yearly if you care enough to look.

So you know at least some of the logistical challenges we have to deal with in terms of weather restrictions. I'm not sure if you've ever actually been on that mountain to get a feel for what we are dealing with up there but all of it forces us into an inflexible time table. We can't have two targets at the same range and have the splash area around them be even close to comparable. Despite that we had 80 shooters this year which is twice the size of any other ELR match and we are probably going to be able to manage 110 shooters next year. The Nightforce Steel challenge is a cool match that drew a lot of people but it is ultimately a PRS match with some ELR targets and there were surprisingly few ELR shooters that went to it. Clearly that format is not what most dedicated ELR shooters are looking for.

-Alex

 

[Dan Warner]

Holy shit. I actually agree with Alex on something. Your right about the wy match in that it is not what ELR shooters are looking for. That concludes this momentary agreement.

 

[THEIS]

Of course it is a perception issue and my experience thus far is that managing perception amounts to combatting misinformation. Nearly all of that misinformation is spread by non-competitors who were never in a position to have first hand knowledge.

-Alex

Hi,

I think you are missing the point on the whole perception thing and trying to steer it to a personal/first hand knowledge thing.

I do not have to get hit by a car to have the perception that I do NOT want to get hit by a car.

Your constant attempts at basically stating that if you were not there personally then you should not voice any question, concern or comment is NOT helping in the PERCEPTION arena by the way.

And this is coming from someone that has a huge commercial investment in the success and growth of the ELR genre.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lowlight]

Why do you think Team AI stepped away and refused to come back, as well as others. They do shoot the .50 Cal Nationals and travel there in time. They shot it once and walked away. That says a lot when a competitor like Dave Walls says no thanks.

You don't understand what perception means either... everything is just personal with you guys. You cannot look at the event in a subjective matter in order to improve.

Pretending like there are no rumblings of Walt shooting is another head in the sand moment.

ELR competitors dont' want to invest the time, money and travel to go to Raton only to head home after one relay, but yet here you are.

I live 3 hours away and would never shoot it unless the format changes. I have been all over Raton and shot matches there, both on the Tubb Ranges and the outlying ranges since 2001. How long have you been on that property again? It's a choice, not a fear, or anything silly, its a choice to not participate. Weather is your excuse today ... wow