Long(er) Range .22RF Shooting

[2Barrels]

An area club just sent a flyer out announcing a .22RF league that will run thru the summer. What made the flyer interesting is that the course of fire will be at 300yds at metallic knockdown buffalo targets. Having yet to shoot my Vudoo at any substantial distance let alone metallic targets @ 300yds, I figured this would be the place to ask. Likewise, I've read the numerous posts here on accuracy testing of various ammo thru the Vudoo, but don't want to hijack or side-track those threads.

My question is this - given that the targets are at 300yds, and must be knocked down, might it be necessary to use High Velocity ammo (not hyper vel) to gain the extra energy at distance to ensure targets do in fact get knocked down?

 

[AFancyPenguin]

I would run the ammo and velocities through a ballistics app like strelok. I'll bet you find with the low BC of the 22 ammo you aren't going to gain much. Is the match 22 rimfire or 22LR only? If 22LR only, they should be calibrated for that cartridge I'd think.

 

[2Barrels]

The flyer states 22RF. With that out of the way I did run Lapua Center-X and CCI Mini Mags thru Strelok Pro. Interestingly enough, at 300yds, the Center-X has 4ft lbs more energy than the Mini Mag (49 vs 45). Besides BC, I'm guessing that part of this difference is the 40gr Center-X vs the 36gr Mini Mag bullet.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Hmm. Well. Seems like a good reason to buy a 22 mag. ?

Otherwise, shoot what shoots the best. I highly doubt 4ftlbs will matter.

 

[2Barrels]

Hmm. Well. Seems like a good reason to buy a 22 mag. ?

Got one, but sadly, and apparently, it's one of the only CZ455's that doesn't shoot, if one believes all of the innernet hype about the CZ.

 

[justin amateur]

Oh goody, long range 22wmr and the accuracy of the cartridge.
Might make for an interesting discussion.

There's an ominous pause as a few remember how a previous discussion went.

 

[1911Shootist]

Can't knock it down if you can't hit it ?

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Oh goody, long range 22wmr and the accuracy of the cartridge.
Might make for an interesting discussion.

There's an ominous pause as a few remember how a previous discussion went.

What did I miss!?

 

[justin amateur]

You didn't miss much.
After reading claims of sub moa and moa all day long with the 22wmr, I asked for proof.
Even made it easy, 50 shots at 100 yards on one target.
I was the only one willing to post results, and mine sucked.
I think I might have irritated a few fanboyz.

The problem is not the rifles.
Simply poor cartridge quality.
It's short range critter thumping ammo.
Center of chest out to 75 yards.
Never intended for precision paper punching.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Oh sure. There is always someone looking to get butthurt.

 

[Near miss]

Too bad the 17hmr may not be the best for taking down metallic buffalos at 300. It slows down pretty quick and does not have much mass either. For this kind of job 22LR is the best.

If you compare Center X and Velocitor which are both 40 grains it does not seem to be a big difference.
But the BC numbers are not made for 300 yds so basic ballistic engine calculations could give inaccurate results. Energy vs. accuracy walks a thin line here.

If one could shoot Aguila 60 grainers accurately it would be a great, depending if the buffalo really is a challenge to tip over. I would guess it is quite sensitive, they want people to at least get some kind of accomplishment, it is hard enough to hit it, right?

60gr aguila SSS with a BC of 0.113 (Litz) leaving 950fps still delivers 58ft lbs at 300yds.

40gr SK LRM with a BC of 0.159 (Litz) leaving 1060fps delivers 53ft lbs at 300.

If the Aguila SSS was spun fast enough to get that BC of 0.159 it would carry 70 ft lbs to 300 mark.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Too bad the 17hmr may not be the best for taking down metallic buffalos at 300. It slows down pretty quick and does not have much mass either. For this kind of job 22LR is the best.

If you compare Center X and Velocitor which are both 40 grains it does not seem to be a big difference.
But the BC numbers are not made for 300 yds so basic ballistic engine calculations could give inaccurate results. Energy vs. accuracy walks a thin line here.

If one could shoot Aguila 60 grainers accurately it would be a great, depending if the buffalo really is a challenge to tip over. I would guess it is quite sensitive, they want people to at least get some kind of accomplishment, it is hard enough to hit it, right?

60gr aguila SSS with a BC of 0.113 (Litz) leaving 950fps still delivers 58ft lbs at 300yds.

40gr SK LRM with a BC of 0.159 (Litz) leaving 1060fps delivers 53ft lbs at 300.

If the Aguila SSS was spun fast enough to get that BC of 0.159 it would carry 70 ft lbs to 300 mark.

I tested those Aguila 60gr and they were HOT garbage. I am talking 2"+ at 50 yards. At least in my gun.

 

[Batemanb12]

I have been using Eley match the averages 1043 shot out of my Vudooo to 400 yards.
Now with that being said the rifle is accurate, but the wind plays hell on the lil .22
I was having to dial almost 3.5mil of wind yesterday to keep them on target and the wind was gusting to 10mph....
This rifle shoots best with tennex but I am not going to waste good target ammo plinking at distance for fun....

 

[OldHistorian]

Too bad the 17hmr may not be the best for taking down metallic buffalos at 300. It slows down pretty quick and does not have much mass either. For this kind of job 22LR is the best.

If you compare Center X and Velocitor which are both 40 grains it does not seem to be a big difference.
But the BC numbers are not made for 300 yds so basic ballistic engine calculations could give inaccurate results. Energy vs. accuracy walks a thin line here.

If one could shoot Aguila 60 grainers accurately it would be a great, depending if the buffalo really is a challenge to tip over. I would guess it is quite sensitive, they want people to at least get some kind of accomplishment, it is hard enough to hit it, right?

60gr aguila SSS with a BC of 0.113 (Litz) leaving 950fps still delivers 58ft lbs at 300yds.

40gr SK LRM with a BC of 0.159 (Litz) leaving 1060fps delivers 53ft lbs at 300.

If the Aguila SSS was spun fast enough to get that BC of 0.159 it would carry 70 ft lbs to 300 mark.

You need a 1:10 twist or better for that Aguila, right? I've shot it from a 1:16 and it tumbles....
I've seen BC all over the map for that load, too. Everything from 0.090 to 0.14 something. What twist does Litz show that BC for, do you recall?

With regard to all who seek the Light
Historian

 

[justin amateur]

During my use of the Aguila 60 gr 22lr, I had no keyholing.
Not at 50, 100 or 200 yards using a CZ 455 Lilja, 1:16 twist.
Chronograph numbers showed it to be bulk ammo,
as did the visual inspection I do before chambering each cartridge.
Aguila does not have the quality control in place to produce precision rimfire.
Only inexpensive rimfire for hunting and plinking, no matter what marketing puts on the label.

Side note, I have had keyholing from 22lr that had bullet material
compressed down past the case mouth on to the brass.
That irregular skirt around the base could be responsible for tipping
as the bullet exits the muzzle. Combine poor exit angle with bullet rotation,
very good possibility the keyholes were defect caused.

 

[OldHistorian]

During my use of the Aguila 60 gr 22lr, I had no keyholing.
Not at 50, 100 or 200 yards using a CZ 455 Lilja, 1:16 twist.
Chronograph numbers showed it to be bulk ammo,
as did the visual inspection I do before chambering each cartridge.
<snip>

Interesting. I have tried the Aguila 60 grain in several rifles, including an adapter to .22 from .223
with a 1:9 twist barrel in an AR. The AR group as one would expect was poor, around 2" for 10 shots at 50 yards.
Groups from 1:16 twist barrels in .222 diameter 1:16 were worse, with obvious keyholes. Have not chronographed
any of the 60 grain loads nor have I screened by visual, weight, rim diameter, etc.
I would be interested in knowing what your chrono results were?

The heavy bullet has potential in the abstract for long range subsonic use, but if it won't group, then it is a short range load.
Pity.

Another load I have yet to wring out is the 45 grain CCI semi-auto Quiet load. If that shoots as well as the CCI SV I have shot so far
I may have to stock up.

 

[justin amateur]

ES of the best 50 sent was almost 200 fps.
The worst 50 was 300 fps plus and the low round never hit the backer.
Also had 2 case ruptures during my testing.
Really not impressed with Aguila, can you tell?

 

[Near miss]

The aguila is bad, I know. But its concept for this kind of shooting would be the best. I hope there will be competition in that market area.

The 0.113 BC is from Litz. I doubt it is made with 1:9 barrel by the logic that BC should be a lot bigger with the proper twist.

 

[OldHistorian]

ES of the best 50 sent was almost 200 fps.
The worst 50 was 300 fps plus and the low round never hit the backer.
Also had 2 case ruptures during my testing.
Really not impressed with Aguila, can you tell?

Yup.
SD of 10 ES of 40 is about my limit for LR .22LR long range ammo. A 200 ES is 'right out'.

I will have to get the Labradar out and test the Aguila lot I got with some screening by weight, rim thickness, appearance and see if that can be tightened up any. Back in the Dark Ages (40 years or so ago) most of the smallbore shooters did that routinely.....

Thanks for the information!

With regard to all who serve the Light,
Historian

 

[OldHistorian]

The aguila is bad, I know. But its concept for this kind of shooting would be the best. I hope there will be competition in that market area.

The 0.113 BC is from Litz. I doubt it is made with 1:9 barrel by the logic that BC should be a lot bigger with the proper twist.

I wonder whether there would be significant increase in BC using a 1:9 with 40 grain SV ammo? I have a 1:9 twist barrel kicking around here somewhere.....

 

[Near miss]

Here is some very good digest regarding that matter.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/22lr-twist-rate.6978111/#post-8187706

Edit:
To add here, the BC of a round can be roughly different than what raw calculations about its aerodynamics would give out.

60gr .22 has much more sectional density which is a major player in the BC value for it.

But if the bullet wobbles/has instable flight it will not perform the best it could.

 

[ta6ppc]

I had a brick of the 45 grain CCI suppressor ammo and was shooting it with my Vudoo at 100 yards not long ago and was surprised with the consistency I was able to keep about a 1” group at 100 yards. I finished off that brick, so I’m sure the lot will have some affect but it’s worth a shot. I had my gun dialed in for a center impact on the target and with the 45 grain it dropped probably close to 5” low and a little right.. for inexpensiveish ammo it’s worth some trying.

I think the 60gr SSS ammo needs at least 1:8 to be right, but it’s very inconsistent.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Ballistics and ammo capability aside, am I the only one wondering why a knockdown target match would be selected for 300 yards? Maybe it’s just my lack of experience, but stage or target reset sounds like a super pain in the butt.

 

[steve123]

Everyone should be shooting a 22LR, that being the case the playing field should be fairly equal, and hopefully the buffalo's are light enough to fall over??? If so it's going to come down to good ES of ammo, 1" at 100Y accuracy - "everyone knows that 1 moa doesn't pan out with 22rf at long range", and who gets the wind right the most often.

I'd like to try a match like that!!!

My 22 mag sucks at 300Y but at 200M it doesn't do too bad on a chicken silhouette, though I haven't tried but a few ammo offerings.


Man I'd love to try my 20-221AI reduced load in a match like that with 32vmax at 2330 fps!! Just for fun, not competing of course.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey Steve...showing my ignorance here.

You've seen the 50 shot patterns I've produced with 22wmr.
How many of those patterns would stay on a steel silhouette at 200 yards?

I hate being ignorant, figured this would be a chance to lessen it.

 

[steve123]

Hey Steve...showing my ignorance here.

You've seen the 50 shot patterns I've produced with 22wmr.
How many of those patterns would stay on a steel silhouette at 200 yards?

I hate being ignorant, figured this would be a chance to lessen it.

I just mean it wasn't hard to hit, vs hitting it everytime. I used 30gr vmax, those blow a lot in the wind with it's .1 BC so I don't bother if the wind is up. Only 1.7 mils of elevation needed though vs 7.1 mils for my 22rf.

It's been a long time since I've shot 200M with the 22mag but there was probably big flyers. Now you are making me want to do it again to see. If it's low winds next Wednesday I'll try again and come back on this thread with a report.

 

[OldHistorian]

Here is some very good digest regarding that matter.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/22lr-twist-rate.6978111/#post-8187706

Edit:
To add here, the BC of a round can be roughly different than what raw calculations about its aerodynamics would give out.

60gr .22 has much more sectional density which is a major player in the BC value for it.

But if the bullet wobbles/has instable flight it will not perform the best it could.

Thanks for the link! Still digesting some of that thread.

I've read Litz on the advantages of overstabilized projectiles, which runs counter to what I was taught back in the Dark Ages, but seems to be borne out by the evidence. I may have to keep my eyes peeled for another beater used 10-22 and see about finding that 1:9 twist barrel a home and see what can be done with it with both CCI SV and the Aguila chow.

With regard to all who seek the Light,
Historian

 

[Longshot231]

I had a brick of the 45 grain CCI suppressor ammo and was shooting it with my Vudoo at 100 yards not long ago and was surprised with the consistency I was able to keep about a 1” group at 100 yards. I finished off that brick, so I’m sure the lot will have some affect but it’s worth a shot. I had my gun dialed in for a center impact on the target and with the 45 grain it dropped probably close to 5” low and a little right.. for inexpensiveish ammo it’s worth some trying.

I think the 60gr SSS ammo needs at least 1:8 to be right, but it’s very inconsistent.

EDIT: I just realized that I plugged in the wrong distance to get the B/C. Attached is the revised drop chart and I revised the numbers below. Sorry for the error.

I got 25,000 rounds of that stuff and chronographed it today out of a Savage B22. It was a little gusty and not the best conditions for zeroing a .22LR. Nevertheless, I was surprised at the groups that I was getting. The worst groups were about 1/2" at 50 yards. That was because of the fliers. Most of the rounds were touching at about 3/8" groups.

I didn't get a chance to try the round out to 100 yards but attached is the information from JBM ballistics.

At 100 yards the CCI 45 grain bullet is dropping 8.3 8.5 inches from a 50 yard zero. By contrast, the 40 grain Norma (AKA RWS) target round is dropping 8.1 inches from a 50 yard zero out of my Anschutz 64 MPR.

At 300 yards the rounds are dropping 164.4" 170.1" and 171.5." Look at that again! The lighter bullet is dropping [Edit] slightly more at 300 yards than the heavier CCI round. Yet, not really enough to make a difference.

The muzzle velocity of the CCI round out of my savage averaged 985.5 FPS and the Norma round out of my Anschutz was averaging about 1026.5 FPS.

BTW, I could hear a mouse giggling behind me cause his farts were louder than my Savage with the suppressor.

 

[Nismogone]

The sk long range is very accurate out to 400 out of my cz455 and can go 8 out of 10 on a 3 in kyl at 300. As far as the energy goes there isn’t much at that distance.

 

[Gros21]

Maybee it's up to 300. Start at 50 or 100 and work up to it. I often knock over 1/2" ar rams at my range with a pistol at 100. 300yards is a hell of a lot more, some would say 3 times as much. Its certinally not easy but depending on thickness it shouod be possible.

We also shoot metallic rimfire shilloute to 50m and the little 1" suckers go flying.
Pretty much 1-2" 3/8 ar targets sitting on a steel saw horse. Only got to push them 1" and they fall off.

 

[steve123]

The sk long range is very accurate out to 400 out of my cz455 and can go 8 out of 10 on a 3 in kyl at 300. As far as the energy goes there isn’t much at that distance.

Yeah I can do 10/10 on a 3"er at 300Y with my rifle, how I don't know since the most accurate 22's with expensive ammo have 6" vertical and a 3 mph wind from 9 o'clock blows the bullet almost 3". I think a saw Wallace of Wallace and Gromit fame do that too.

 

[45cal4life]

The sk long range is very accurate out to 400 out of my cz455 and can go 8 out of 10 on a 3 in kyl at 300. As far as the energy goes there isn’t much at that distance.

You're talking about 22Lr at 300 yards --- not 300 feet, correct???

 

[Nismogone]

Correct

 

[simpletoms]

You're talking about 22Lr at 300 yards --- not 300 feet, correct???

300 yards makes life interesting!

 

[22fun]

300 is where the fun starts. You really test yourself and your equipment. I find that once you start getting out to that distance two variables really come into play wind and ammo. Even the best ammo seems to sometimes have a variation of at least one moa (sometimes). I shot Saturday with a gusty 15-25 mph wind quartering from the right that required a hold between 1-5 moa depending on gusts. 315 yards Center x 10” plate.

 

[Merlin O]

So....how many shots AT the plate????

 

[woogie_man]

Nice shooting!

Last summer took my buddies dad to the range with us to shoot 22lr. He was very optimistic when I hung a 3" target ( I believe )at 200 yards, then a 10" gong at 300 yards. He didnt think the accuracy at 200 yards would be as good, then came the 300 yard. He had more fun trying to ping that far target with his basic set up...that once he got home he bought a new scope and a ton of ammo.

Through scope is target at 200 and the orange is the results at 300. Three of us shooting at it

 

[Longshot231]

 

[22fun]

So....how many shots AT the plate????

Bout 80 shots fired total. Took me close to 20 just to find the first hit with that wind . Then plenty of misses like I said it tests you and your equipment. But it’s fun to hear that ding.

 

[simpletoms]

Haven't heard much on this since shot show. They said spring, but, well, the Corona… Any updates?

 

[Longshot231]

Haven't heard much on this since shot show. They said spring, but, well, the Corona… Any updates?

I checked their website and nothing turned up.

If their idea ever took off, you know it would not take long before other companies would be joining the .22ELR game.

Wouldn’t that be a hoot? Berger bullets loaded in Federal Rimfire cases? Or Nosler ballistic tips loaded in CCI cases? How about a scaled down version of the Sierra MatchKing loaded in a rimfire case?

Hornady already loads their V-max Bullets in .22 magnum and the .17HMR. So why is it taking them so long to come up with a .22ELR round?

 

[simpletoms]

I checked their website and nothing turned up.

If their idea ever took off, you know it would not take long before other companies would be joining the .22ELR game.

Wouldn’t that be a hoot? Berger bullets loaded in Federal Rimfire cases? Or Nosler ballistic tips loaded in CCI cases? How about a scaled down version of the Sierra MatchKing loaded in a rimfire case?

Hornady already loads their V-max Bullets in .22 magnum and the .17HMR. So why is it taking them so long to come up with a .22ELR round?

Vudoo is well on their way with twist rate testing. I'm curious what solid copper will do to barrel life, and what the cost will be for the ELR .22 round. If they can keep the price in the range of top end Eley/SK ammo there's a chance for it to succeed. If not, I'm not so certain.