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Hunting & Fishing Long range varmints

david walter

david walter

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Jul 22, 2007
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Out west, but not too far west
#1
I have a friend who is a Sgt 1st Class in the WA Army National Guard. Three combat tours, airborne, sniper, every badge except Ranger it seems.

He and some friends head to western Montana every year to shoot ground squirrels and rock chucks(?).

He takes a 17 HMR, a 223 AR, and wants something for 450 yards plus.

224 Valkyrie? Or a bolt gun by who in what? 22-250/22-250AI/22 Creed, 1 in 8 twist?

Or, get a used Remington 700 action, screw on a Remage in 22-250 fast twist, and drop it in something with an AICS magwell and go forth and conquer?
 
#4
I do .22mag, 5.56, and 6.5 Grendel. Haven’t got to stretch the legs on the Grendel on a LR coyote yet, as I don’t feel I have shot enough LR yet to ethically do it.
 
#5
If he's shooting many rockchucks (woodchucks for you easterners), a 260 or 6.5 Creed is the ticket. Enough energy to get some acrobatics out to 300 yds and accurate enough for the 800+ shots.

I shoot chucks with a suppressed 308, spectacular mist and aerials with 1-200 yard shots. If you hit a ground squirrel under 100 with it, it sounds like popping a paper bag.
 
#8
likes the 224 valkyrie in either ar platform or bolt gun with the 75 grain plinking round from fedral which can be gotten for 8.88 per 20 online with free shipping maybe less if you find a better price or get a better discount . and would be pretty easy shooting at 800 yards . As always just another option.
 
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#9
Seems to me that the current varmint king, especially for keeping your target in view for the impact... is the .204 Ruger. But I'm not much of a hunter so I don't know how well the .204 does on coyotes.

I travel west each year for a 3-4 day varmint hunt. I simply bought a no-frllls Howa 1500 with a 24" heavy barrel in .223. It does all I ask.
 
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#10
I go on a ground squirrel shoot in Southern Oregon every year and have shot thousands of 204 rounds at squirrels from 400 yards to 4 feet and I can say that I would consider a fast twist 22-250 or step up in to the 6mm realm. The 204 is a flat and awesome for holdover shots out to 400 on a calm day but those little rounds really get their butt kicked in the wind and I would definitely look at a caliber with better BC bullets if long range is going to be the primary role of this rifle. I love my 204 but when you are shooting at a target that's only a couple inches wide they can be a real challenge with even a mild breeze at extended ranges.
 
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#11
We shoot prairie dogs out in West Texas with everything from 223 to 6.5 SAUM. Just a couple weeks ago we took a prairie dog with a 223 at 995 yds, and another with a 7-08 at 1068 yds. Most shots are between 400-750 though. I’d say my favorite caliber for them would be anything in a 6. It’s enough to really reach out there without getting blown around by the wind too much, and easy on the shoulder.
 
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#12
Aescobar17 said:
We shoot prairie dogs out in West Texas with everything from 223 to 6.5 SAUM. Just a couple weeks ago we took a prairie dog with a 223 at 995 yds, and another with a 7-08 at 1068 yds. Most shots are between 400-750 though. I’d say my favorite caliber for them would be anything in a 6. It’s enough to really reach out there without getting blown around by the wind too much, and easy on the shoulder.
Click to expand...
What bullet where you using in that 223 at 995 yards?
 
#13
I believe it was a 73 ELDM. I’ve got access to the land, so I usually spot for the guys that don’t get to shoot as often. I was on the spotter for a good buddy that hadn’t been out there before. I shot a bit earlier with 108 ELDMs out of my 6CM.
 
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#14
My stair step rifles for prairie dogs as distance and wind increase are .17 HMR, .204 Ruger, .223 (50, 53, 55gr.) then .243. If I could only have one rifle it would be the .204 for range coupled with ease of watching spectacular hits. To address the OP's query about 450+ yards it would be a 6mm of some variant. The .223 as mentioned above, is no slouch and is quite capable of reliable kills in the 600-700+ yd. range (and even further as stated previously).
 
#16
His .223 will kill any varmint out to 500 and 1k if he really wants to push his skills. If's he's got a 1-9" twist then 69 gr. pills are the ticket.

If he's only got a 1-12" twist, then he'll need another rifle to get to 1k, as that will only stabilize a usable bullet out to 700 yds.

Any of the above named cartridges will work. Whatever he gets, he will need a tight twist if he really wants to reach out. 6mm's are pretty much the ticket for varminters who want to reach out. That said, the .224V is really set up well to handle what's needed to reach out there.
 
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#18
4darkseid said:
22-250 is good with 55sbk etc outto 500 and streach 600 the 243 is fine for your range,
Rem as the factory issue is best on the mkt.
Click to expand...

I’m sorry man, but Remington is the single worst option on the market in factory form. Complete crap QC, and many if not all rifles will outshoot them on on average. With so many good options that have came to market in the past 2-3 years there is not a single reason to buy a Remington.

-previous loyal Remington fan
 
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#19
Aescobar17 said:
I’m sorry man, but Remington is the single worst option on the market in factory form. Complete crap QC, and many if not all rifles will outshoot them on on average. With so many good options that have came to market in the past 2-3 years there is not a single reason to buy a Remington.

-previous loyal Remington fan
Click to expand...
seems like you're speaking from experience, can you kindly enlighten me/us futher why Remington is crap and not an excellent LR varmint factory rifle?.
 
#20
Aescobar17 said:
I’m sorry man, but Remington is the single worst option on the market in factory form. Complete crap QC, and many if not all rifles will outshoot them on on average. With so many good options that have came to market in the past 2-3 years there is not a single reason to buy a Remington.

-previous loyal Remington fan
Click to expand...
WOW!

For a long time I've not been so much a Remington fan. But, I'm a little tired of everyone talking like the rifle couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. So, I bought one. Funny thing is, it's a RR ser. #. And, guess what, it'll put five shots with 150 gr. bullets under an moa every time. That's with a standard barrel. I've shot factory Remington heavy barrels and they shoot better.

Remington makes their rifles using state of the art CNC machinery. And, truth be told, their tolerances are as good as anyone's out there today. they maintain ISO 9001 standards. And that is pretty good compared to anyone in the past. They've even improved upon their barrel making. They used to not relieve stresses as well as they do today.

The biggest reason to buy a Remington, is everybody is set up to customize them. And, they are easier than some actions to get right. I like Savage, but prefer the options on Winchester actions. Savage button rifles their barrels and stress relieves them very well. Bergara's are a nice option in the same price range. Howa's are good. Mossberg MVP's have stepped up their quality.

Just get something he likes the options on. Quality, believe it or not, has increased across the board.
 
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#21
sandwarrior said:
WOW!

For a long time I've not been so much a Remington fan. But, I'm a little tired of everyone talking like the rifle couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. So, I bought one. Funny thing is, it's a RR ser. #. And, guess what, it'll put five shots with 150 gr. bullets under an moa every time. That's with a standard barrel. I've shot factory Remington heavy barrels and they shoot better.

Remington makes their rifles using state of the art CNC machinery. And, truth be told, their tolerances are as good as anyone's out there today. they maintain ISO 9001 standards. And that is pretty good compared to anyone in the past. They've even improved upon their barrel making. They used to not relieve stresses as well as they do today.

The biggest reason to buy a Remington, is everybody is set up to customize them. And, they are easier than some actions to get right. I like Savage, but prefer the options on Winchester actions. Savage button rifles their barrels and stress relieves them very well. Bergara's are a nice option in the same price range. Howa's are good. Mossberg MVP's have stepped up their quality.

Just get something he likes the options on. Quality, believe it or not, has increased across the board.
Click to expand...

A stack of shit Remington actions that were too far out of spec to salvage would beg to differ. 3 out of 5 700 Short actions that we ordered at the same time arrived without extractors or extractor cuts. But by all means great QC.
 
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#22
Aescobar17 said:
A stack of shit Remington actions that were too far out of spec to salvage would beg to differ. 3 out of 5 700 Short actions that we ordered at the same time arrived without extractors or extractor cuts. But by all means great QC.
Click to expand...
OK, how did you come by a "stack of shit Remington Actions?" 60% failure rate???? This is what I'm talking about. I see a lot more than 98% shoot pretty good. I don't see many rejects from gunsmiths that build them either. Yeah, I get they have actions that fail to meet high standards, but not that many.

Feel free to hate 'em...it's your loss.
 
#23
Lol is there a single time when I mentioned how they shoot besides saying on average others will shoot better? Which they do by the way. 1 MOA isn’t exactly impressive by any means, and doesnt have a spot in my safe. If that’s your idea of shoots good, then this conversation has ran it’s course.Ive had several Remingtons that couldn’t hold MOA regardless of ammo. I’ve had a couple that shot pretty decent.

If you believe Remingtons tolerances and QC are as good as anyone’s then I’ve got some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona. 3 out of 5 bolts not being cut for extractors and leaving the shop that way is more than sufficient evidence.

I’m not missing out on anything. There are far more accurate rifles on the market if I wanted a factory rifle, with Bergara not leaving any reason to buy a 700. They’re far more accurate on average, at the same price point, and accept all 700 parts. Therefore leaving any argument you had for buying a Remington void. Oh and they actually provide fast twist options which Remington can’t wrap their mind around.
 
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#24
Aescobar17 said:
Lol is there a single time when I mentioned how they shoot besides saying on average others will shoot better? Which they do by the way. 1 MOA isn’t exactly impressive by any means, and doesnt have a spot in my safe. If that’s your idea of shoots good, then this conversation has ran it’s course.Ive had several Remingtons that couldn’t hold MOA regardless of ammo. I’ve had a couple that shot pretty decent.

If you believe Remingtons tolerances and QC are as good as anyone’s then I’ve got some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona. 3 out of 5 bolts not being cut for extractors and leaving the shop that way is more than sufficient evidence.

I’m not missing out on anything. There are far more accurate rifles on the market if I wanted a factory rifle, with Bergara not leaving any reason to buy a 700. They’re far more accurate on average, at the same price point, and accept all 700 parts. Therefore leaving any argument you had for buying a Remington void. Oh and they actually provide fast twist options which Remington can’t wrap their mind around.
Click to expand...
The only ones I've seen must be the 40% ones.
 
#25
Like I said if you’re happy with it then good for you. They don’t even come close to my expectations though, and there are far better purchases for the same money.
 
#26
Aescobar17 said:
Like I said if you’re happy with it then good for you. They don’t even come close to my expectations though, and there are far better purchases for the same money.
Click to expand...
I didn't say I was happy with that. I said it's a good start for a standard. And, I didn't say Remington was my favorite rifle. In fact, I've said for years, they drove me nuts because they would never tighten up their twist rates. That is a reason to buy another rifle. But, the quality control issues? I think people have some legitimate beefs with Remington, but the quality control is still pretty good...if not the ideas they push out there.

You also have to remember there's a little history with Remington and twist rates. Back in '55 (before I was born and probably you too), they introduced the .244 Rockchucker with a 1-12" twist. Winchester introduced the .243 in 1-10" twist. The .243 would stabilize a 100 gr. bullet. Which translated to people believing it was the deer gun and the .244 was not. Remington then renamed the .244 to 6mm Rem, and used a 1-9" twist. And that would stabilize not only 100 gr. bullets but heavier spitzers too! Leave it to gun rags to fuck things up and vilify Remington for doing that. Anytime me and friends ever discussed guns that always gets brought up. "Ruined the accuracy" I heard over and over again. Oh, the shame and horror. Ever since then, it's taken an act of congress, and god to sign off on it, to get them to change.

But, custom barrel makers saw this and started making tight twisted barrels. And one thing they loved was yanking barrels off 700's and putting a new one on there.

Now that Cerberus (using Freedom Arms) bought them and spun them off, the "quality" has gone to shit. Well it hasn't. It's good enough for a starter rifle. I doubt there is a 60% throw away across the gunsmithing industry for them. You may not be satisfied and I can understand that. But, in a good gunsmiths hands, those can be trued up and made to shoot quite well. A shitload of benchresters have proven that at many ranges.
 
#27
I never said there’s a 60% throw away for them. The pile of actions has been accumulated over a few years. I’m not sure when my buddy started that, but he’s been building rifles for 7 years now. I’ve built multiple rifles off 700s.

The 3 out of 5 actions that I did state was when me and 4 buddies all ordered a bare action at the same time on the same order. 3 of those 5 arrived without an extractor cut. We didn’t throw those away. We milled the bolt for the extractor. I’d guess the rate of unsalvagable actions easily less than 5%, and probably less than 1%, but that’s still way too many with the options out there today. The fact still remains that they take way more work to true than others, as well as you still have a weak bolt. I’ve seen multiple bolt handles snap off at the base of the handle. Some using factory ammo as well, so hot hand loads cant even be a concern.


By standards set 20 years ago they’re still probably a pretty decent option. With the way factory rifles shoot today there’s no reason to consider them. Until the last few years they still had the advantage of aftermarket. With more manufacturers using a 700 pattern they’re losing even that advantage.
 
#28
Sooo... long range varmints... :whistle:

I want to try a subcaliber rifle for small varmint hunting. Any suggestions? I have my eyes on a .17 Hornet or .22 Hornet (leaning .17 unless I find a particularly gorgeous .22H at a particularly good price), .17Fireball, .221Fireball, or maaaaybe a .204R (though it’s close enough to a .223 that I’ll admit I’m not as interested in it as I am the others). Of them, a .17H is the most attractive. No recoil, relatively quiet, VERY minimal powder usage, and more reach/better ballistics than the standard .22H.

Anybody with experience using any of those at range and want to weigh in? My thoughts are to get a CZ527 and the HS Precision stock for it, as I’ve always liked the CZs.
 
#29
Basher,

I love the mini-cartridges. .17 Rem is so easy to get 4k out of without burning barrels. You can burn barrels quickly if you don't back off though. Just that the tiny bullet is easy to push fast.

Any of the Hornet cases is fun, I like the .218 Bee cases. I have a .25-20 Win, which the Bee is based off of. It came about so you could shoot a high velocity mini out of a lever action.

The cut down .222 Rem family is fun too, i.e. 221 fireball and the .22TCM.
If looking for a small rifle the Savage 25, CZ527, Interarms Mini-Mauser/M85 and TCM are your choices. I really like the TCM. It's like a .22LR, but with twice the sting. Much higher pressure than the Hornet and Bee cases.
 
#30
david walter said:
He takes a 17 HMR, a 223 AR, and wants something for 450 yards plus.

224 Valkyrie? Or a bolt gun by who in what? 22-250/22-250AI/22 Creed, 1 in 8 twist?
Click to expand...

I go to Montana every year to shot P-dogs. Here is what I shoot and it has worked great for me.
100-300 - 223 55gr or 22-250 50 gr Vmax
300-500 - 223 75gr ELD or 22-250 50gr Vmax
400-700 - 22-250 with 75 or 80 grain ELDs (22-250 needs a fast enough twist for this)
The next step up would me a 243/6mm of some kind. but I don't have either of those.

My opinion is the 22-250 with the fast twist and 80 grain ELDs will complete head to head with the 224 val and the 22 creedmoor. 224 val is designed to function in an AR platform, if that is what you're looking for, use it. And if you look at the case dimensions of the 22 creed to the 22-250 they are almost identical.
The 22-250 with the heavy bullets has been a hammer at distance, plus I can use all the same brass and dies, no upgrades needed.
I have shot the 223 with 75gr ELDs out to 700 yds with marginal success on P-dogs.
Its P-dogs, take a cheep rifle and more Ammo. At Longer distances you'll get the 2nd and 3rd shots.
Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.
 
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#31
I have both Remington and Tikka Rifle { varmint }, they are both great shooters for factory rifles, but, I have worked on both triggers. I am not a long range shooter, but out to 300 they get the job done with 52 grain v-max......FWIW, Charlie112
 
#33
I'm going to upgrade my 5.56 load to a 53gr vmax from a 50gr vmax. I absolutely love the terminal effects of the 50gr vmax going 3200 fps out of my HBAR. But the 53gr vmax has a G1 BC of .290! Even at 3150 fps at my elevation they should expand out to 550 yards. I'm building a 260 AI for beyond that distance but rethinking my decision. I'm leaning towards a fast twist 22-250 or 22-250 AI using 75 to 80gr eldm. Terminally the 260 would have more energy, but I want to cut down the mass in case of ricochets.
 
#35
brianf said:
6br
Not a barrel burner
Supremely accurate, especially under 800
Almost no recoil
Factory ammo is as good as hand loads
A million 6mm bullets to choose from, you can get flat base for benchrest or vld for distance
Click to expand...
This is a good post to point out that WAAAAY back in the day when I started reloading ('75), it wasn't effective to run both light and heavy bullets in a tight twist...if you found a tight twist. Reason being bullet tolerances from then are absolute crap compared to what we have today. With the propensity for bullets to be much more out of round back then, the slower twist wouldn't set up a harmonic vibration/anomaly that made bullets less accurate. Benchresters still use the slowest twist because of this. But, bullets today have ten times better concentricity than they had back then.

Point is, this is a great round and handles both light and heavy bullets just fine now.
 
#36
A .223 and a 75g ELD going 2950 or better will be plenty on prairie dogs out to and beyond 800 yards. Inexpensive ammo, and barrel life is a plus. I also have a 22x47 lapua, but shooting at prairie dogs hastens the already short barrel life. Dont get me wrong, I will shoot at them occasionally, but the .223 is what I grab when shooting them all day.
 
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#37
For prairie dogs and ground squirrels, the low recoil, easy on barrel calibers are king in my book. My current favorite long range chuck rifle is a 260 ai with 147 eld. We don't have a lot of chucks in my area so we don't shoot them under 600 yards which factors into my caliber preference. When I get my 6x47 straightened out, I will give it a chance but I suspect I will still like the 260 better for 800 plus ranges. If shooting under 600, I would take a 6 for sure.

For the ranges I like to shoot chucks, 223 doesnt put enough energy on target for my tastes. We get a lot of wind and being off a few inches left or right happens. I like more horsepower in the event of a less than perfect hit. I am sure a fast twist, larger cased 22 would work well but I have not used one.
 
#38
m jager said:
For prairie dogs and ground squirrels, the low recoil, easy on barrel calibers are king in my book. My current favorite long range chuck rifle is a 260 ai with 147 eld. We don't have a lot of chucks in my area so we don't shoot them under 600 yards which factors into my caliber preference. When I get my 6x47 straightened out, I will give it a chance but I suspect I will still like the 260 better for 800 plus ranges. If shooting under 600, I would take a 6 for sure.

For the ranges I like to shoot chucks, 223 doesnt put enough energy on target for my tastes. We get a lot of wind and being off a few inches left or right happens. I like more horsepower in the event of a less than perfect hit. I am sure a fast twist, larger cased 22 would work well but I have not used one.
Click to expand...
I'm building a 260AI for long range chucks. How far out have you shot them with the 147gr eldm?
 
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