Night Vision Looking for Input on Thermal Scope Purchase

[StoneRaven]

I have done some research on the purchase of a Thermal Scope. The optic will be used for pig and predator night hunting in the southeast.

My research has lead me to the following conclusions.

I am not considering the FLIR/Armasite units based upon what appear to me to be dated specs as well as concerns over customer support.

I am leaning towards the PULSAR Trail XP50, and I am considering the LRF XP50. I am unsure if a laser range finder would be beneficial enough to justify the added $1,000. I assume most night shots would be taken at 300 yards or less, leaving me unsure if knowing the exact target distance is really that important. Is a last range finder useful for night time pig hunting?

At the price of the PULSAR Trail LRF XP50, I am tempted to jump on up to the Trijicon IR-Hunter (IRMK3-35). I would more readily go with the Trijicon if it had on board video recording and wi-fi image streaming. I believe that on board recording and wi-fi video streaming would add to my enjoyment, but perhaps I am putting too much emphasis on this feature. Do others find this feature beneficial?

My research indicates that both the PULSAR and the Trijicon are reliable units with solid customer support. Do others agree? Between the two, which would you choose and why?

I really like the specs of the new ATN ThOR 4 640 4-40, but as these units are so new, I have been unable to get comfortable with the reliability of the units and I know little of ATNs customer support reputation. Should this thermal scope be strongly considered?

Of the units I am considering, which one would you purchase?

With a maximum budget of the Trijicon ($7,499), are there other units I should be considering. If so, what and why?

You input is greatly appreciated.

Greg

 

[wigwamitus]

Sounds like your research is solid ... it would be helpful if we knew more about the terrain in which you will be shooting.

==

I've owned 5 armasights, 3 ATNs, 3 Trijicons and 4 Pulsars. As well as some others. Back 3-4 years ago, the Armasights were king due to their low cost and ability to get the job done. Then along came the Pulsars and the Armasight/FLIR merger and the IRD/Trijicon merger. FLIR's strategy seems to have been to wipe out Armasight, and that was well done. Trijicon's strategy seems to be to allow IRD to flourish and that is working out well also. ATN's strategy seems to have become to pick up the "toy" end of the market below the "hunting useable" end. Not sure how that is working out. So now, after that shake out, the Pulsars have the low end of the hunting usable market and the Trijicons have the medium end. The military thermals still occupy the high end.

The XP50 is a great thermal. And some even like them better than the trijicons.

I've become an OASYS core bigot and currently have 2 Trijicons and 2 BAE.

But I still have one Pulsar.

The Trails and the battery packs and the video which some like, though these cost extra. Others go with the Apex line so they don't have to pay extra for the battery pack and the video. If the video is important to you then having the video is worth the extra price. THough . I use separate video DVR so I can move them around between the different thermals versus having them integrated.

You can't go wrong either way, they will all get the job done.

Perhaps a more important aspect though is what magnification should you get and that depends on the terrain. So tell us more about that. And then we can try .to hone in further on the model trade-offs.

 

[wigwamitus]

Oh and rifle mounted range finders are very useful at night !!

 

[Slowflyte]

I am running a pulsar xq50 LRF. I love it works great for what I do. Range finder is awesome don’t have to take your eye out of the scope, wouldn’t go back to one without especially on humid nights when range is even harder to tell. Most of my shots are 100 to 300 wide open prairie, only coyotes. I also like the RAV so I don’t have to remember to hit record. I think retail is 4300. Lower resolution 384 x 288 but it still kills a lot of coyotes.

 

[generalzip]

I’ve played with or owned all these scopes you’re referring to. Personally I went with the XP50 and think it is the best thermal currently out for my applications.

 

[Sledge1]

I am running a pulsar xq50 LRF. I love it works great for what I do. Range finder is awesome don’t have to take your eye out of the scope, wouldn’t go back to one without especially on humid nights when range is even harder to tell. Most of my shots are 100 to 300 wide open prairie, only coyotes. I also like the RAV so I don’t have to remember to hit record. I think retail is 4300. Lower resolution 384 x 288 but it still kills a lot of coyotes.

I'm curious as to what caliber you hunt with. I've heard many people talk about how valuable an LRF is at night only to then say that their shots range from 1-300 yards. I shoot a 70 grain bullet at about 3200 fps and have no trouble shooting coyotes at these ranges. I'm just curious what issues that people are having.

 

[wigwamitus]

With 5.56 62gr tsx and 10.3 inch barrel I'm flat to about 175yds then holds are 6 inches up for 200yds, 12 inches up for 250yds and 20 inches up for 300yds. As an example.

==

==
Small and handy, good for jumping over fences, climbing up and down creek banks ... good for mobility in general. Not so great for long range shots. Also good for holding up and scanning for a long time.

 

[wigwamitus]

If I was buying another thermal today, I think I'd want another long distance thermal clipon like the UTC-x

This enables 16x/20x on the day scope. Unfortunately, right after I got mine, BAE shut down the USA oasys dealer program and the whole oasys program, so these are now "unobtainium". So really, if I was buying today, I would wait.

N-Vision Optics might be producing a new version of the TC50/TC50A with an OASYS core.

The FLIR T-75 might still be obtainable for around $12k new (PR-Infrared or direct from FLIR).

Trijicon has said they will restart production on the BAE OASYS thermals. If they did, then there might be more UTC-x/xii available one day.

The LWTS-LR might be released one day and we might be able to buy them.

==
If I had to buy a thermal today and it had to be either pulsar or trijicon, I think I'd get a REAP2 60mm. I had the xp50 at the top of my wish list 2 years ago, but once I found out the magnification was only 1.6 for the 640 unit I x'd it off. I want more magnification on the front end for my thermal scopes. On the trijicon side I started with a 35mm but then upgraded to the 60mm to get more optical magnification. The 35mm is better inside 100yds, but I use other thermals for that.

And the REAP2 has the vertical battery compartment. And while the inline on the Mk3 60mm has not been a problem for me. Others have reported issues with inline batteries and there is a reason the military used the vertical.

If I am buying a thermal, I first want it to be a thermal, so I don't think much about the bells and whistles. Those add more cost and more things to break. And if they do break and I want to fix them, then I loose the thermal for a while. I have 2 radiae and one VSO rifle mountable range finders. If one of those breaks and I want to fix it, the thermal still works. I practice changing my batteries in the dark a lot, so changing batteries is not an issue for me. And I have separate DVRs.

The REAP2 is also smaller and lighter than the mk3 60mm, but barely. I've used both menu systems a lot and slighly prefer the mk3 system, but that is not at all critical to me. The Mk3 can take 3 batteries and the REAP2 only 2, so that means more batt changes with the reap2, but the vertial compartment removes battery related recoil issues from the table and than is a bigger plus for me than all the negatives. Oh and the reap2 costs $500 more. But given the base cost of these critters, I'll pay that for the vertical battery compartment.

Why Trijicon? In my experience, the OASYS cores deliver a better image over all the conditions I face and better image for me primarily means PID of smaller critters at greater distances. Though secondarily better view of the terrain to maintain orientation and rough distance estimates. And finally, I here fewer complaints of loss of zero with the Trijicons than the pulsars, possibly due to the plastic housing of the pulsars.

==
All that said, with the XPs or the XQs either will get the job done, either the trail or the Apex. If I had to get a pulsar today, I'd get the 50mm Apex, to reduce the cost and it has roughly the same image as the xp50 if I press 2x digital which I think I would a lot due to the 1.6x front end magnification.

 

[atepointer]

I don't think you can go wrong with Pulsar or Triji. I have not had a chance to test Pulsar's CS mine runs like a beast almost 3 years old, but have a friend who did and they resolved it with 5 stars in a hurry. Buddy has REAP and the image is just amazing. If you can afford the downstroke you won't regret Triji. Either one will allow you to kill anything you need at those ranges. We average 30 yards for hogs inside 100 yotes. Part of the fun is seeing how close you can get b/f mayhem erupts. In the day where we hunt if you can get within 200 yards of a feeding hog it's a miracle, but they go full stupid in the dark. No idea why they just do forget getting winded I'm vaguely aware of it any longer. I walk in to hunt in jeans and t-shirt, boots I wore to pump gas etc they just keep eating. Maynot be that way for you just what we have found night time changed the game on 'em. Trust me once you get on your first sounder there thermal addiction will be complete. It's like the mafia....once you are in it's for life only one way out!

Where in AL?

 

[atepointer]

With 5.56 62gr tsx and 10.3 inch barrel I'm flat to about 175yds then holds are 6 inches up for 200yds, 12 inches up for 250yds and 20 inches up for 300yds. As an example.

==

==
Small and handy, good for jumping over fences, climbing up and down creek banks ... good for mobility in general. Not so great for long range shots. Also good for holding up and scanning for a long time.

What kind of velocity you getting with that 10.5? I have thought about an sbr b/c 16" with suppressor as you noted is not ideal for bumping around stuff in the dark. Most of our time is jumping out of pick up bed and stalking fields, but still the sbr attracts me for the occasions diving into the woods, creek jumping etc.

 

[wigwamitus]

My new phone doesn't have my ballistic calculator on it and I am on the road this week, so will have to answer when I get back. I would guess around 2500. It's a Colt 10.3 ...
My official designation for that gun is "Night Spotter Carbine". As with the Radius I can give ranges to other team mates and with the 60mm lens I am often called on "put the 60 on it" ... meaning "we can't PID with our helion and patrol so put the mk3 60mm on to get a PID" . . The extra magnification helps with faster PID at greater distances ...

 

[Sledge1]

With 5.56 62gr tsx and 10.3 inch barrel I'm flat to about 175yds then holds are 6 inches up for 200yds, 12 inches up for 250yds and 20 inches up for 300yds. As an example.

==

==
Small and handy, good for jumping over fences, climbing up and down creek banks ... good for mobility in general. Not so great for long range shots. Also good for holding up and scanning for a long time.

See, now this makes sense to me, but most people aren't using a setup like this. Most are using something with normal .223 ballistics so I can't understand the struggle with the 300' and under stuff.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Most are using something with normal .223 ballistics so I can't understand the struggle with the 300' and under stuff ...

I agree and we discuss this topic in the "range finder" thread on this sub-forum ... as in .. "do we really need rifle mounted range finders for night hunting?" And ballistically many times, maybe we do not. But How do you know it is 300yds versus 400yds ? And I think it is "comforting" to know the distance, even if theoretically not required.

 

[Magnetic]

I've had/used the ATN 2-8, MK3-35, Reap-IR and Trail XP50. I still have the Trail XP50. Side by side, the Trijicons have a very slight edge in image quality. However, the features of the Trail are so far ahead of the Trijicons that I have never regretted my choice. As mentioned already, the rifle, terrain and target can somewhat dictate which model would be best and if a lrf would be useful.

For @wigwamitus he is looking for more magnification and did not like the 1.6X low end of the Trail XP50. For me, the majority of our hog shots are in the 60-75 yard range and the wide field of view is more important if you want to try for more than one. I shoot a 6.5 Grendel and I am 0" @50, 2" high @100, 0" @200, -3.5" @ 250. I have no need for a lrf in my situation, but it could be very important if a different situation. The more specifics you can provide will help in a recommendation.

 

[Slowflyte]

I'm curious as to what caliber you hunt with. I've heard many people talk about how valuable an LRF is at night only to then say that their shots range from 1-300 yards. I shoot a 70 grain bullet at about 3200 fps and have no trouble shooting coyotes at these ranges. I'm just curious what issues that people are having.

I shoot a 223 and 22 Nosler we can only shoot 22 cal at night in the state I am in. I use the range finder as much to help ID as I do for shooting. With the lower resolution scope at say 800 yards if I range a target I know what a coyote size should be as compared to a deer. So I know if I need to get closer to ID for sure, if it’s larger than what a coyote is at that distance I can move on. I have shot coyotes out to 450 but they were closer when I IDed them just couldn’t get them to stop. Majority are 100 to 300. If you hunt a lot on unfamiliar ground some kind of rangefinder is definitely a plus. Especially when thermal conditions are not ideal.

 

[generalzip]

For hog hunting, a LRF is pretty useless and just added, unwanted weight. You can literally walk up to hogs 50 yards away at night. Why do you need to range something less than 100 yards away.... I zero my guns at 50 yards and I'm within an inch high or low out to about 180 yards.

For Texas hog hunting, it's pretty damn important to ID your target. If there is a single hog/deer/calf out in a field you realistically need to get about 300-400 yards away, depending on conditions, even with the best thermals to be 100% certain of what it is. Shoot a calf, you won't be hunting that property or any neighboring properties ever again. Shoot a deer, you may never hunt the rest of your life. Save the 300+ yard shots for the day when you can't sneak up on pigs.

It's also difficult to know what's through a treeline (houses, hills, farm animals, etc) when using thermal. Always know your target and what is beyond.

 

[generalzip]

For @wigwamitus he is looking for more magnification and did not like the 1.6X low end of the Trail XP50. For me, the majority of our hog shots are in the 60-75 yard range and the wide field of view is more important if you want to try for more than one. I shoot a 6.5 Grendel and I am 0" @50, 2" high @100, 0" @200, -3.5" @ 250. I have no need for a lrf in my situation, but it could be very important if a different situation. The more specifics you can provide will help in a recommendation.

This^^

In general I've found FOV trumps magnification with thermals. They are extremely limited with FOV to begin with. You need all you can get. With a 640 core you can always zoom in to 3.2x, which 95% time is more than you need. Guys shoot 600 yards with iron sights inside a pie plate... You don't need much mag to get the job done inside 200 yards on an animal the size of a hog.

I've found the amount of times I needed to zoom out to 1.6x for more FOV on running hogs far outweigh the number of times I've needed to zoom in. Great thing about the Pulsars is you have the PIP which allows you to have both FOV and zoom for the first shot. It's an awesome feature.

 

[wigwamitus]

I zoom in a lot for PID.

One night I did a 360 ... and saw one black hot spot, which did not seem to be moving. I estimated about 200yds out in our alfalfa patch. After I finished the 360, I zoomed in to 2x ... this was with the mk3 60mm so the net magnification was now 9x. So could see a head. A critter probably lying down in the alfalfa patch. But partially obscured by the vegetation. I zoomed to 4x, now net 18x. I could now see the head was chewing, eating something.
If I was on 1.6x or 3.2x I would not be able to see that detail, I could only see a black spot. Not make out the head or the movement.

By the way, to complete the story, I still could not tell whether the critter was:

Yote, Coon, Opossum, Deer or Calf ... all were at least theorectically possible. So I could not shoot. So I fired a "recon by fire" shot, about 5 yards to the side. The critter went from lying down at 0 MPH to standing heading across my front at 40 MPH ... it was a yote ! I could not connect on the running shot. I learned something important. When doing recon by fire. Prepare mentally for what could happen, so you don't loose a valuable 1 second "admiring" the reaction !!

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This is just one example of how zooming in helps you see detail. I can give many others. I am thinking about spotting/PID and I like magnification for that. That's why I carry the mk3 60mm !!

 

[Sledge1]

I shoot a 223 and 22 Nosler we can only shoot 22 cal at night in the state I am in. I use the range finder as much to help ID as I do for shooting. With the lower resolution scope at say 800 yards if I range a target I know what a coyote size should be as compared to a deer. So I know if I need to get closer to ID for sure, if it’s larger than what a coyote is at that distance I can move on. I have shot coyotes out to 450 but they were closer when I IDed them just couldn’t get them to stop. Majority are 100 to 300. If you hunt a lot on unfamiliar ground some kind of rangefinder is definitely a plus. Especially when thermal conditions are not ideal.

I hadn't considered using one to help with ID, that make sense.

 

[bman940]

I just got ATN's ThOR 4 4.5-18 and it is awesome. I have been using a 5 year old ThOR that has done great but this new one is worth a look. At $3200 retail it is loaded with features. A buddy has some great coyote hunting video from his X-Sight 4K so it was an easy sell for me. Bluetooth viewing, ability to record pre and post shot, attaches via provided 30mm mounts, all awesome features. If you haven't made up your mind you definitely need to take a look at them. I put mine on my 6.5CM upper and took 3 shots to be satisfied with my zero. That is about as easy as it gets.

 

[bman940]

Had a blast breaking out the ATN's this past weekend. Awful weather, wind, and sleet but we still managed to decrease the feral hog population and a few coyotes too. This ThOR 4 384 4.5-18 worked great as you can see from the headshot on this hog at almost 200 yards with a 6.5cm. My son used this combo and never gave it back to me. I love the size, weight, and ease of use. ATN has a winner on their hands. This is my own opinion, I am not paid by ATN at all. Just a night hunting fan like the rest of you.

 

[Camo Out]

Great Info!!