Advanced Marksmanship Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

[blackrifleops]

Looking for Law Enforcement based advanced precision rifle observer training for possible duty-related incidents. Looking to get away from the FLETC training! Any ideas would be great! Thanks

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Are you looking for a class put on by LEOs specifically or by a company who could offer specific training for LEOs.

 

[Graham]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

What is it about FLETC that you want to avoid in this new training?

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

What is it about FLETC that you want to avoid in this new training? [/quote


Just looking for something new! We both have been through Firearms Instructor, CITP, and numerous other trainings at Artesia and Glynco! Looking for something different!

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you looking for a class put on by LEOs specifically or by a company who could offer specific training for LEOs. </div></div>


Either! Specific Company who specializes in precision rifle would be great! Should Probably be a certification type course that will back us in court!!!! Should an incident take happen!

 

[TNRobocop]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Check out High Ground Training Group. Their classes are put on through the Williamson County Sheriff's Office in Franklin, TN. I am an adjunct master instructor with them and their classes are put on at Tullahoma national guard training facility with a 1k+ range area.

Sniper classes are Basic (I), Advanced (II), Supervisor (III), and Mixed Terrain Target Interdiction & Close Team Support (IV).

Here is the youtube video from our inagural Level IV class last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XZUUBx6XV0&feature=player_embedded

Here is the website:
http://highgroundtraining.com/index.html

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluewater Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check out High Ground Training Group. Their classes are put on through the Williamson County Sheriff's Office in Franklin, TN. I am an adjunct master instructor with them and their classes are put on at Tullahoma national guard training facility with a 1k+ range area.

Sniper classes are Basic (I), Advanced (II), Supervisor (III), and Mixed Terrain Target Interdiction & Close Team Support (IV).

Here is the youtube video from our inagural Level IV class last year:



Thanks will check it out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XZUUBx6XV0&feature=player_embedded

Here is the website:
http://highgroundtraining.com/index.html </div></div>

 

[Driftwood]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Badlands Tactical offers precision rifle courses that are all Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training aka CLEET certified. Bobby Whittington the owner is the Sheriff for the county Badlands is located in. Steve Suttles the lead instructor is a Vietnam era Marine sniper. Both are excellent instructors and have a ton of knowledge and experience. They are also very affordably priced. I have attended various courses over the years and my time at Badlands was by far the best time spent. The Idaho POST academy accepted the certificate of training I recieved from Badlands and added it to my training record with no issues. I am sure you will have a very good experience with Badlands Tactical if you choose to attend.

http://www.badlandstactical.net/courses.htm

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Some of the testimonials on the Badlans website are impressive. Apparently, these instructors REALLY work the trainees - 12 hours per day.

Jim G

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

I would also be interested in any info on "LE Sniper Training", with the focus being on "LE" and not "Military".

Most of the training programs that I have seen are "Mil" based, the focus is on "Minute of Man" at long ranges.

I have not seen many programs that focus on "Instant Incapacitation" at ranges under 300 yards.

The stuff that High Ground Training Group looks like they are doing seems to be more alone the lines of what I am looking for. Sub MOA shots, friend/foe interaction, positional shooting, movers, scenario based exercises, etc.

Any info on training along those lines would be greatly appreciated.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[TNRobocop]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Capt,
The classes are run through the WCSO training division. I know some of the classes are TN POST approved and others have been submitted, but I am not sure which ones as I just instruct, not work that side of it.

I just moved to FL from TN where I was an officer and I have been through all of the classes and the classes were submitted through my department to TNPOST.

Hope that helps.

 

[Driftwood]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

I have not taken Badlands "Urban Sniper" course yet, but have been trying to synchronize my schedule so that I could. From what I have learned by asking about the course, I think you would enjoy it very much. You should give Bobby Whittington a call. He could answer any questions you had and probably develop a course of training tailored to your specific needs.

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Cpt, if you happen to find something more detailed
to the LEO, let me know! Thanks for input guys!

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

I am a Certified LE Sniper Instructor. I put on a 40 hours LE course for LE Only, for small classes.

I do the course at you're location if you have the range.

If interested and you want more details on the course and/or my qualifications PM me.

 

[weemsw]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

I'd check with these

PRW
www.precisionrifleworkshop.com

Center mass
www.centermassinc.com

Snipercraft
www.snipercraft.org

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

PM Sent

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a Certified LE Sniper Instructor. I put on a 40 hours LE course for LE Only, for small classes.

I do the course at you're location if you have the range.

If interested and you want more details on the course and/or my qualifications PM me. </div></div>




Very interested Kraig! sent PM

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Likewise thanks to everyone for the feedback,

Those are a lot of really good options listed, some of which I was aware of, some I was not.

I have been on "multiple sides of the fence", Military, Law Enforcement, and Competitive Long Range Shooting, and while I can greatly appreciate that there is a lot of shared ground between all of them, there are some things within each discipline that are unique and need specific training exactly for that skill set.

I have found that with a lot of the "Sniper" training materials and programs out there the main focus is based on long range, and it is really a lot of carryover from the Military programs.

IMHO, there are a number of components within LE Sniping that are unique and likewise require a very specific training regiment to address them.

Thanks Again, Best of Luck,
M Richardson

 

[S.T.A. Training Group]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Come see us

 

[Dontmiss0311]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Check out Centermassinc.com. Their sniper classes are %100 law enforcement related. Another website to check with is the american sniper association.

 

[jerseymike]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Academi in moyock, nc.

Academi.com

 

[Graham]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found that with a lot of the "Sniper" training materials and programs out there the main focus is based on long range, and it is really a lot of carryover from the Military programs. IMHO, there are a number of components within LE Sniping that are unique and likewise require a very specific training regiment to address them.</div></div>Precision LE marksmanship training should be long range training. The fundamentals necessary to execute a bain-stem shot at short range are the same.

The key 'compenents' of a <span style="font-style: italic">regimen</span>, like sniper-spotter dialogue, commentary, incident logging, decision matrices and fielcraft, are almost never taught in a basic course. And there's a reason for that: Basic courses are geared toward LE departments that want to put a 'new guy' behind a rifle and show that he is 'trained' to whatever state standard exists, if it exists. Many LE courses even state at the beginning that the goal is to throw the basics at you for three to five days and see what sticks.

Even then, in my opinion you can't train a sniper, even a LE sniper, to any meaningful standard of competence in three to five days. The result: I have seen many graduates of 'advanced' LE courses who have no idea how to set up their own rifle, or mount a scope, or optically check a rifle scope, or measure a door frame with a mil-dot reticle, or diagnose a shooting problem on paper, never mind also nav, ruck and stalk.

Beware of tourist traps: The courses that deem themselves as 'geared to LE', ones that that limit the student population to police and limit the course material to a knowledge of the fundamentals sufficient to hit a 3x5 at 200 yards with a precision bolt gun, don't teach much capability. This, too, has a result in the real world: At the last LE-only 'sniper' match for 'tactical' teams that I observed, nine of ten stages could have been cleaned with a a .223 AR and an ACOG.

Bottom line, and this is also my opinion: For an LE marksman, being under-utilized and called to real-word scenarios that are far below your personal cabilities is not a bad thing. The other side of that coin is that sending people to attend a basic course, to then represent to the public that we have the ability or the capability to accomplish a task, will not make it a reality. What <span style="text-decoration: underline">is</span> a bad thing is, as a department, to pretend that you have the capability to do something and then attempt it in the real world. That is what gets (the wrong) people killed and generates the lawsuits against departments that we see too often in the news.

OP, that said, as you look for an LE course ask questions about the instructors and about what is taught, and avoid the courses that teach head games, running and pushups, which can be learned without the course fee and travel.

 

[jaym_100]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
avoid the courses that teach head games, running and pushups, which can be learned without the course fee and travel. </div></div>

I'm not saying I disagree with this but why would you avoid all of the extra. I have heard the Hathcock School will run your ass in the ground.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: Graham

avoid the courses that teach head games, running and pushups, which can be learned without the course fee and travel.</div></div>

I'll agree with that 100%, I don't have that BS in my classes. It's not necessary, and accomplishes nothing. There is ways to intergect stress without that crap.

The AMU started this stuff, they didn't have that run-dodge-and-jump in their schools. It's debatable for the military, totally unnecessary for LE.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not saying I disagree with this but why would you avoid all of the extra. I have heard the Hathcock School will run your ass in the ground.</div></div>

They may be doing that now, but I doubt Hatchock did it when he was running the school.

 

[tacmt]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Blackrifleops, check us out at tacmt.com for the Hathcock LE Sniper School. It's open to full time paid law enforcement only. Ask anyone who has been through the school for their opinion about it.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Everyone who was in service or was a cop and has fired a rifle seems to automaticly become a LE Sniper Instructor.

Who ever you choose, have him show you his state Certification as a LE Sniper Instructor.

Having an instructor that is certified by a State Certification Council as a LE Sniper instructor will be a big help in court if your services are needed.

 

[Graham]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having an instructor that is certified by a State Certification Council as a LE Sniper instructor will be a big help in court if your services are needed. </div></div>Perhaps, depending on what the legal claim is.

With regard to whether or not the officer correctly used deadly force, probably not. With regard to whether the department can successfuly defend unsubstantiated civil allegations of failure to train a particular officer, then maybe.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

A ligit shooting is ligit and no problems in criminal court.

Right, wrong or indifferent, just about every cop involved shooting often ends up in civil court. Many times both officer and department are listed as defendents seperatly.

It's just one of the things that would help.

That's why that have Police Standards Councils.

 

[captrichardson]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

Thanks again for all of the info & feedback!

For me it has been a “Catch 22”,

Distance,
IMHO any LE Sniper/Marksmen should be able to competently shoot beyond 200 yards. How far beyond that distance always becomes a hot topic when I bring it up. I usually get the argument that the statistics show that the majority of engagements are less than 100 yards, the areas of operation do not warrant it, and the risks versus benefits associated with shots past 200 yards are not acceptable. This is one of the primary areas where the Military Mindset versus the LE Mindset comes into play. Of course this issue also brings up the “Instant Incapacitation/Sub MOA” shots versus “Minute of Man” shots.

Stress,
Per others comments above, I would argue that if you are spending time, money, and resources, that they would be better off put to use working behind a rifle versus an obstacle course, miles of running, or some other Iron Man physical challenge. IMHO there should be some physical stress as a part of the training, but there also needs to be equal parts of mental stress.

Supporting Elements,
When it comes to things like Land Nav and Wildland Stalks, for Metro/Urban personnel they have little to no application. For other areas I can understand the value. That also gets back into separating the Military Methodology from the LE Methodology.

Legal Aspects,
Also per others comments above, whether it comes to training credentials or defending the shot in court, that is another component that is completely different from the Military based training programs.

IMHO a good LE Sniper Program is going to have extra material that you would not find in a Military Program, and there would be material from a Military Program that really should be left out.

The challenge for me has been trying to sort through the course descriptions, and see which courses are really addressing the LE elements and not wasting time, money, and resources on the Military elements that don’t really apply.

And so the quest continues!
M Richardson

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ligit shooting is ligit and no problems in criminal court.

Right, wrong or indifferent, just about every cop involved shooting often ends up in civil court. Many times both officer and department are listed as defendents seperatly.

It's just one of the things that would help.

That's why that have Police Standards Councils. </div></div>


I haven't forgot about you Kraig, waiting for BIA Regs to see if everything is ok!
that is why we did'nt have a SRT team for a long time because the cival liability out weighed the benefits of the SRT! Times are changing though and we must adapt to this new generation!

 

[blackrifleops]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captrichardson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found that with a lot of the "Sniper" training materials and programs out there the main focus is based on long range, and it is really a lot of carryover from the Military programs. IMHO, there are a number of components within LE Sniping that are unique and likewise require a very specific training regiment to address them.</div></div>Precision LE marksmanship training should be long range training. The fundamentals necessary to execute a bain-stem shot at short range are the same.

The key 'compenents' of a <span style="font-style: italic">regimen</span>, like sniper-spotter dialogue,
commentary, incident logging, decision matrices and fielcraft, are almost never taught in a basic course. And there's a reason for that: Basic courses are geared toward LE departments that want to put a 'new guy' behind a rifle and show that he is 'trained' to whatever state standard exists, if it exists. Many LE courses even state at the beginning that the goal is to throw the basics at you for three to five days and see what sticks.

Even then, in my opinion you can't train a sniper, even a LE sniper, to any meaningful standard of competence in three to five days. The result: I have seen many graduates of 'advanced' LE courses who have no idea how to set up their own rifle, or mount a scope, or optically check a rifle scope, or measure a door frame with a mil-dot reticle, or diagnose a shooting problem on paper, never mind also nav, ruck and stalk.

Beware of tourist traps: The courses that deem themselves as 'geared to LE', ones that that limit the student population to police and limit the course material to a knowledge of the fundamentals sufficient to hit a 3x5 at 200 yards with a precision bolt gun, don't teach much capability. This, too, has a result in the real world: At the last LE-only 'sniper' match for 'tactical' teams that I observed, nine of ten stages could have been cleaned with a a .223 AR and an ACOG.

Bottom line, and this is also my opinion: For an LE marksman, being under-utilized and called to real-word scenarios that are far below your personal cabilities is not a bad thing. The other side of that coin is that sending people to attend a basic course, to then represent to the public that we have the ability or the capability to accomplish a task, will not make it a reality. What <span style="text-decoration: underline">is</span> a bad thing is, as a department, to pretend that you have the capability to do something and then attempt it in the real world. That is what gets (the wrong) people killed and generates the lawsuits against departments that we see too often in the news.

OP, that said, as you look for an LE course ask questions about the instructors and about what is taught, and avoid the courses that teach head games, running and pushups, which can be learned without the course fee and travel. </div></div>

Thanks for info Graham! I have spoke to Kraig, through PM and sounds like a great guy with alot of experience!

 

[Neil Allen]

Re: Looking for LEO Precision Rifle/ Sniper Training

blackrifleops

Check out AFTT.org. Mark is former LE. Runs a perty good precision rifle class every June up at the IPY ranch outside of Hulett,Wy.

I have been going several years now and learn, learn, learn.

Contact Mark, tell him what you would like to do, accomplish. He is very accommodating!



N