Looking for opinions on different optics setups

[matt2cal]

Hi all,

New to this and (embarrassingly enough posting on forums as well). I’m looking for advice and if you have any specific recommendations that’d be great too.

Right now I’m running a 5.56 with a 16” barrel and a red dot (one of the few optics I’m familiar with as mainly I’ve had experience with pistols and just in the past year branched out to rifles) along with a 3x magnifier with QD mount from time to time.

Ideally what I’m looking for is what everyone is looking for, the best of both worlds for CQB and up to 300 (maybe 400 yds) for defensive/tactical purposes. The best hybrid setup between red-dot and magnified range.

I’m trying to pick the brains of those more knowledgeable than myself to see what the pros and cons would be of running the various scenarios and what opinions you all might have. I’ve done a lot of research but that only goes so far so I’d love to get the opinion of those in the know.

Here are the various scenarios I’ve been toying with and trying to figure out the pros/cons of:

1. 1-6x24mm FFP with BDC with/without a micro red dot mounted cantilever (from what I’ve heard SOCOM has started going with the SIG Tango 1-6x24 but my info may be outdated and I’ve heard of operators going this route vs the red dot with magnifier)

2. 1-6x24mm illuminated SFP where BDC is calibrated for max magnification - can I keep it at 1x for the red dot equivalent value and then adjust to max magnification to take advantage of BDC as necessary for distance shots?

3. Battle sights with BDC with a picatinny rail on top and a w/wo a micro dot mounted on top

These are some of the options I’ve been looking at but I’d love to get the opinion of the pros and cons from those with more real world experience. I want something where I can have the ease of the red dot primarily for CQC but in a pinch also get some distance if need be for increased versatility.

Any feedback would be really appreciated as I’m trying to soak up as much knowledge as possible to make the right decision for what I’m looking for and I know there are PLENTY with more experience than I.

 

[JDB55]

Generally speaking, a red dot will be the best for CQB, add a magnifier and you can do work out to 300-400 especially if you have a red dot with a bdc. Won't be as precise as an LPVO but for torso size hits it'll work. This will also be the lightest option.

A SFP LPVO(a good one) you can run like a red dot(especially with a nuclear bright dot). The eyebox and eye relief will be better on a SFP LPVO and you'll get a simple mil/moa/bdc reticle that will work fairly easily out to 400 yards no problem. This will be heavier then the red dot magnifier.

A FFP LPVO (a good one) will be able to better utilize all the magnification ranges and your holdd will be accurate at all mags(unlike a SFP). Generally the FFP will have a better reticle with more information in it in a FFP. The eyebox and eye relief are normally a bit worse in a FFP vs SFP and it's more expensive to get a nuclear bright reticle. This optic can really benefit from a 12 o'clock or offset mini red dot sight imo.

I currently have a shorter AR15 with a red magnifier and I have a longer AR15 with a 1-8 FFP LPVO and an offset RDS. Both are great, for me, if I could only have one though I would have a FFP 1-8/1-10 and an offset RDS. I personally think a 1-6 LPVO is fine in the SFP just because normally, I've always either been on 1 or 6. Having said that, I sold my 1-6 SFP for a 1-8 FFP with a better reticle for easier ranging and distance and put on an offset as an option if I wanted a nuclear bright dot/back up.

I dont think their is a right or wrong here, the biggest question I think is what do you want it for more? 1x or distance. If it's both, I think the LPVO with an offset is the best solution and I think the reticles in the FFP gives you more information then a SFP at distance. However, I've had my 1-6 SFP LPVO out to 550 yard on a reduced size ipsac steel target no problem, but that was gauging known distance targets.

I dont know if this was helpful at all but just my thoughts through my experience and changing stuff around. For me, red dot magnifier for closer in work, lpvo offset RDS for more "do it all".

One last piece of advice from someone whose made a lot of mistakes in this, buy once cry once. It'll save you a lot of money in the long run. You don't have to get the most expensive out there, but I highly recommend looking researching and saving if you can get into that $850-1700 price range for an LPVO.

Recommendations -

LPVO -SFP nuclear bright dot
•Delta Stryker 1-6x24
•Vortex Razor Gen2E 1-6x24

LPVO- FFP
•SAI 1-6x24(just because I've heard a lot of people say good things)
•Primary ARMS PLx Compact 1-8x24
•Eotech Vudu 1-10x28

 

[matt2cal]

Generally speaking, a red dot will be the best for CQB, add a magnifier and you can do work out to 300-400 especially if you have a red dot with a bdc. Won't be as precise as an LPVO but for torso size hits it'll work. This will also be the lightest option.

A SFP LPVO(a good one) you can run like a red dot(especially with a nuclear bright dot). The eyebox and eye relief will be better on a SFP LPVO and you'll get a simple mil/moa/bdc reticle that will work fairly easily out to 400 yards no problem. This will be heavier then the red dot magnifier.

A FFP LPVO (a good one) will be able to better utilize all the magnification ranges and your holdd will be accurate at all mags(unlike a SFP). Generally the FFP will have a better reticle with more information in it in a FFP. The eyebox and eye relief are normally a bit worse in a FFP vs SFP and it's more expensive to get a nuclear bright reticle. This optic can really benefit from a 12 o'clock or offset mini red dot sight imo.

I currently have a shorter AR15 with a red magnifier and I have a longer AR15 with a 1-8 FFP LPVO and an offset RDS. Both are great, for me, if I could only have one though I would have a FFP 1-8/1-10 and an offset RDS. I personally think a 1-6 LPVO is fine in the SFP just because normally, I've always either been on 1 or 6. Having said that, I sold my 1-6 SFP for a 1-8 FFP with a better reticle for easier ranging and distance and put on an offset as an option if I wanted a nuclear bright dot/back up.

I dont think their is a right or wrong here, the biggest question I think is what do you want it for more? 1x or distance. If it's both, I think the LPVO with an offset is the best solution and I think the reticles in the FFP gives you more information then a SFP at distance. However, I've had my 1-6 SFP LPVO out to 550 yard on a reduced size ipsac steel target no problem, but that was gauging known distance targets.

I dont know if this was helpful at all but just my thoughts through my experience and changing stuff around. For me, red dot magnifier for closer in work, lpvo offset RDS for more "do it all".

One last piece of advice from someone whose made a lot of mistakes in this, buy once cry once. It'll save you a lot of money in the long run. You don't have to get the most expensive out there, but I highly recommend looking researching and saving if you can get into that $850-1700 price range for an LPVO.

Recommendations -

LPVO -SFP nuclear bright dot
•Delta Stryker 1-6x24
•Vortex Razor Gen2E 1-6x24

LPVO- FFP
•SAI 1-6x24(just because I've heard a lot of people say good things)
•Primary ARMS PLx Compact 1-8x24
•Eotech Vudu 1-10x28

That was extremely helpful and had echoed some of what I’ve heard from others. Trust me, I appreciate all the input and feedback I can get, I appreciate it.

 

[pineoak]

If you can get it in MIL instead of BDC I think you'd be better off as the BDCs are often calibrated for a specific round/barrel length

and they often don't match up all that well.

with MIL/MRAD, you just learn your dope

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

Price range?

You don't need to choose between #2 and #1 since you can just get the scope first and get a red dot later if you feel it is needed. If you don't care about passive aiming and your main optic is a 1-6 I wouldn't bother with a red dot personally, put the money/weight into a better LPVO.

For most shots being 0-300 yards and occasional use to 400 a 1-6 is ideal. SFP is perfectly fine, you aren't likely to want to use it below 6X if using the reticle anyway.

Good options from cheapest to most expensive:
PA SlX w/ nova reticle (not out yet)
Vortex Viper
Delta Stryker
Vortex Razor Gen 2-E
Pa PlXC (this is a 1-8 FFP, so probably overkill for your use)

 

[Zane1844]

Generally speaking, a red dot will be the best for CQB, add a magnifier and you can do work out to 300-400 especially if you have a red dot with a bdc. Won't be as precise as an LPVO but for torso size hits it'll work. This will also be the lightest option.

A SFP LPVO(a good one) you can run like a red dot(especially with a nuclear bright dot). The eyebox and eye relief will be better on a SFP LPVO and you'll get a simple mil/moa/bdc reticle that will work fairly easily out to 400 yards no problem. This will be heavier then the red dot magnifier.

A FFP LPVO (a good one) will be able to better utilize all the magnification ranges and your holdd will be accurate at all mags(unlike a SFP). Generally the FFP will have a better reticle with more information in it in a FFP. The eyebox and eye relief are normally a bit worse in a FFP vs SFP and it's more expensive to get a nuclear bright reticle. This optic can really benefit from a 12 o'clock or offset mini red dot sight imo.

I currently have a shorter AR15 with a red magnifier and I have a longer AR15 with a 1-8 FFP LPVO and an offset RDS. Both are great, for me, if I could only have one though I would have a FFP 1-8/1-10 and an offset RDS. I personally think a 1-6 LPVO is fine in the SFP just because normally, I've always either been on 1 or 6. Having said that, I sold my 1-6 SFP for a 1-8 FFP with a better reticle for easier ranging and distance and put on an offset as an option if I wanted a nuclear bright dot/back up.

I dont think their is a right or wrong here, the biggest question I think is what do you want it for more? 1x or distance. If it's both, I think the LPVO with an offset is the best solution and I think the reticles in the FFP gives you more information then a SFP at distance. However, I've had my 1-6 SFP LPVO out to 550 yard on a reduced size ipsac steel target no problem, but that was gauging known distance targets.

I dont know if this was helpful at all but just my thoughts through my experience and changing stuff around. For me, red dot magnifier for closer in work, lpvo offset RDS for more "do it all".

One last piece of advice from someone whose made a lot of mistakes in this, buy once cry once. It'll save you a lot of money in the long run. You don't have to get the most expensive out there, but I highly recommend looking researching and saving if you can get into that $850-1700 price range for an LPVO.

Recommendations -

LPVO -SFP nuclear bright dot
•Delta Stryker 1-6x24
•Vortex Razor Gen2E 1-6x24

LPVO- FFP
•SAI 1-6x24(just because I've heard a lot of people say good things)
•Primary ARMS PLx Compact 1-8x24
•Eotech Vudu 1-10x28

Great post. I recommend the SAI 1-6x. Amazing scope for the money.

 

[winxp_man]

That was extremely helpful and had echoed some of what I’ve heard from others. Trust me, I appreciate all the input and feedback I can get, I appreciate it.

Whats the budget you have for said optic?

 

[BELLYCRAWL]

If you already have and have trained with a red dot and x3, then you may benefit from more reps or utilization in a class/school. Like others have said, red dot and magnifier get you out to 3-400 pretty easy. But I can totally see where magnification and other benefits like a 1-6 provides equates to a nice addition if needed. My (distant) past experiences are in CQB, and the potential for very rare occasion out to 300 yards engagements, which is at least what we trained for.

My case for a Red Dot and Magnifier comes from reps, training and confidence. I have a Sig Romeo 8 with BDC reticle and both a Vortex micro 3 and micro 6 on QDs on Flip to Center mounts. With my 16" barrel, Norma SS109 (62s at 2970 fps) and a 57 yd zero at my center dot (I run 3.57" optic over bore), hits from from 57/300 are super simple, however not totally precise.

When I use my magnifier and reticle drop dots, my second dot is 450 yds (5moa), and my third dot is 570 yds (9Moa) and my last dot is 700 yds(15moa). If this doesn't make sense, just look at an image of the Sig Romeo 8 reticle. I'm also shooting at 6000 feet elevation. Yesterday, I was hitting 300/455/600/650 with a 3x magnifier on man size targets very easily from a supported position.

The CONS For me, even though my Romeo 8's battery life is insane, I would still like to have the assurance of a reticle like an LPVO provides that never needs illumination, as I have had several EOTECHs fail, which is the reason I still have and train with irons. Yesterday, I trained with irons out to 450 yds, just as a back up and confidence enhancer in the case the red dot doesn't illuminate someday. In a previous job, I had to shoot irons out to 300 yards pretty regularly, so I'm someone who is comfortable with irons.

We could talk about weight comparisons, ability to remove the magnifier for lighter weight and potentially enhanced CQB needs that many believe a red dot provides, as well as NVG passive use and other reasons that are pros and cons when someone chooses the "best" optic set up for their use.

I still have friends that swear by ACOGS with mounted red dots. And for what its worth, I totally see their training history and the reasoning that makes sense for them.

LPVOs make a lot of sense and bring A LOT of versatility. If you are just starting to familiarize and get training, the many options are a pain. If you go to a class, maybe you could get some reps under stress using somebody's else's rig and get some good reps on a variety of setups.

Blessings,

BC

 

[matt2cal]

If you can get it in MIL instead of BDC I think you'd be better off as the BDCs are often calibrated for a specific round/barrel length

and they often don't match up all that well.

with MIL/MRAD, you just learn your dope

Been trying to educate myself…hardest part is that the ranges around me are limited with limited range so I can’t go out and get a real feel. Any reference material you can suggest? I’ve looked at a number of things but unfortunately it’s a self taught exercise, hence the post….

 

[matt2cal]

Price range?

You don't need to choose between #2 and #1 since you can just get the scope first and get a red dot later if you feel it is needed. If you don't care about passive aiming and your main optic is a 1-6 I wouldn't bother with a red dot personally, put the money/weight into a better LPVO.

For most shots being 0-300 yards and occasional use to 400 a 1-6 is ideal. SFP is perfectly fine, you aren't likely to want to use it below 6X if using the reticle anyway.

Good options from cheapest to most expensive:
PA SlX w/ nova reticle (not out yet)
Vortex Viper
Delta Stryker
Vortex Razor Gen 2-E
Pa PlXC (this is a 1-8 FFP, so probably overkill for your use)

Thanks for the input…heard good things about the Primary Arms stuff in regards to budget optics that still come through. No price range, just trying to adapt to a new line of weapon (rifle vs pistol), educate myself as best possible and get something reliable that’ll do the trick, even if the recommendation is more of a starter than the top of line can’t be beat. Without the practice and training just hard to see shelling out too much at this point. Just my opinion, and correct me if I’m wrong, but a lot of people can shoot with high priced equipment. I’m looking to shoot in general so it doesn’t matter what I’m using and trying to improve my skills and have solid overall fundamentals where my aim isn’t dependent on the gear so much as me and my knowledge.

 

[matt2cal]

If you already have and have trained with a red dot and x3, then you may benefit from more reps or utilization in a class/school. Like others have said, red dot and magnifier get you out to 3-400 pretty easy. But I can totally see where magnification and other benefits like a 1-6 provides equates to a nice addition if needed. My (distant) past experiences are in CQB, and the potential for very rare occasion out to 300 yards engagements, which is at least what we trained for.

My case for a Red Dot and Magnifier comes from reps, training and confidence. I have a Sig Romeo 8 with BDC reticle and both a Vortex micro 3 and micro 6 on QDs on Flip to Center mounts. With my 16" barrel, Norma SS109 (62s at 2970 fps) and a 57 yd zero at my center dot (I run 3.57" optic over bore), hits from from 57/300 are super simple, however not totally precise.

When I use my magnifier and reticle drop dots, my second dot is 450 yds (5moa), and my third dot is 570 yds (9Moa) and my last dot is 700 yds(15moa). If this doesn't make sense, just look at an image of the Sig Romeo 8 reticle. I'm also shooting at 6000 feet elevation. Yesterday, I was hitting 300/455/600/650 with a 3x magnifier on man size targets very easily from a supported position.

The CONS For me, even though my Romeo 8's battery life is insane, I would still like to have the assurance of a reticle like an LPVO provides that never needs illumination, as I have had several EOTECHs fail, which is the reason I still have and train with irons. Yesterday, I trained with irons out to 450 yds, just as a back up and confidence enhancer in the case the red dot doesn't illuminate someday. In a previous job, I had to shoot irons out to 300 yards pretty regularly, so I'm someone who is comfortable with irons.

We could talk about weight comparisons, ability to remove the magnifier for lighter weight and potentially enhanced CQB needs that many believe a red dot provides, as well as NVG passive use and other reasons that are pros and cons when someone chooses the "best" optic set up for their use.

I still have friends that swear by ACOGS with mounted red dots. And for what its worth, I totally see their training history and the reasoning that makes sense for them.

LPVOs make a lot of sense and bring A LOT of versatility. If you are just starting to familiarize and get training, the many options are a pain. If you go to a class, maybe you could get some reps under stress using somebody's else's rig and get some good reps on a variety of setups.

Blessings,

BC

Much appreciated and makes complete sense. Right now I’m running a Holosun AEMS Enclosed red dot with a Vortex micro 3x on a 16”
5.56 and a Romeo 5 (nothing against it, came with it when I got it) on a 10” 5.56 “pistol”. Eventually looking to move the Holosun AEMS most likely to the 10” and upgrading the 16” to something that’ll allow for CQB but also some distance if need be.

 

[matt2cal]

I’ve heard some good things about the Primary Arms SLX just as a starting point to get reps and practice in with an LPVO. Also heard some good things about the Holosun HS503g with ACSS and a 3x magnifier. Really just trying to be as educated and prepared as possible so open to any commentary or suggestions from those who are probably much more knowledgeable than I am. Trying to soak up as much information I can fro those that’ve been there, done that.

 

[JDB55]

I’ve heard some good things about the Primary Arms SLX just as a starting point to get reps and practice in with an LPVO. Also heard some good things about the Holosun HS503g with ACSS and a 3x magnifier. Really just trying to be as educated and prepared as possible so open to any commentary or suggestions from those who are probably much more knowledgeable than I am. Trying to soak up as much information I can fro those that’ve been there, done that.

I started with an SLX 1-6 entry level scope, sold it after a bit. Went to a Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10, sold it after awhile and seeing better quality LPVOS. Bought the Delta Stryker 1-6x24(best bang for your buck on the market imo IF you want SFP and a bright nuclear dot). Sold it after several years to upgrade it FFP primary arms PLxC 1-8(but the Stryker more then holds it own).

I think if you just don't care that much OR you never look at someone else's higher quality optic that you'll probably be fine with entry level, especially if it's just target shooting. Once you look through something made on mid to higher end scale, you'll most likely be ruined and wish you bought that to begin with and not have to sell something and lose money. However, your mileage may very. The lowest I would personally recommend would be the Vortex Viper PST gen II 1-6x24.

As far as red dots, if you look you can find a Sig Romeo 4T with a multi reticle bdc reticle in it for under $400 pretty easily. It's in a better quality bracket (assembled in Oregon, used by fbi, some of our military and other militaries around the world) then the HS503G and gives similar capabilities. Has 100,000 potential battery life, solar panel, shake awake, ruggedized and made out of 7075 aluminum with a good mount. I would look that up and research it out.

Ultimately if your budget doesn't or won't ever allow a certain price bracket, you get the best you can and use it. However, if it's just a matter of being patient and saving a bit longer, my recommendation is absolutely go that route. Again, I say this as a person who doesn't do that far to often and regrets it haha.

 

[pineoak]

Can't speak to durability as it was a range toy but I really liked my PST Gen2 1-6

It felt like pretty much the same as the razor

 

[mi650]

OP, I know this isn't what you're asking, but I have a different line of thinking. A decent LPVO is already going to do what you'd want a RDS to do. I've never seen the point of having a LPVO and a RDS on the same rifle.

I already live where I would bug out to if the SHTF, but if for some reason I had to grab 1 rifle and go, the 1 I'd take has a decent quality HPVO and a decent RDS. A MPVO/RDS combo would work for me, too.

 

[BCP]

Burris, Steiner, Vortex, Primary Arms all make little 3-4x prism sights with BDC reticules. I have a primary arms 1-6 on my 308 and it works well enough for what it is. Lots of people will add offset sights because switching the magnification isn't always practical.