Looking for practical input on the Sig 716i Thread & DB10P13 - Future 308W AR buy

[Pen & Sword Life]

I'm going to buy one of these two rifles for hunting purposes..... And zombie apocalypse

Expected hunting distances is 300m maximum. Not planning on doing long range shooting with it, although I will be testing either one at my local 600m range from time to time - Just for the hell of it.

Any practical experience with either or both is much appriciated, especially regarding maximum distances for retaining effective expansion of hunting ammo. Similar experience with sub sonic hunting munitions and suppressor is also wanted.

https://www.sigsauer.com/sig716-tread.html - 16" barrel

https://diamondbackfirearms.com/portfolio/db10p13bgsb/ - 13,5" barrel - If I go with this solution, brace is off ASAP. No brace shenanigans in Denmark

Attached photo is my own illustrative mock-up.

An Ase Ultra suppressor is also part of the plan.

And yeah Sightmark 3-18 MR2 might be sligthly over-scoped for a 13,5" barrel

Why not buy an AR15 type rifle? I'm glad you asked. AR15 are not allowed in Denmark, however, an AR 308W is. Don't ask me why, Danish gun laws makes about as much sense as a football bat.

Anyways, I'm new to the forum and I look forward to learning new stuff - 25 years in the Danish Army, now I'm a happy civilian.

 

[BCP]

I'm looking at getting the sig for myself for the same reasons. Here in America they are 1500usd with taxes and everything. Apparently they are issuing them in the thousands to Indian soldiers right now.

As for hunting you will get around 2400-2500fps with various types of hunting ammo out of a 16" 308. More than enough to kill anything you would want to shoot with a 30 caliber bullet at normal distances.

 

[GLD1980]

Here's a video of me going 8-11 on a 280yd 10" steel plate at a 29° slope angle off bipod, at a fairly quick pace with no speed editing. I'm not claiming to be a great marksman, quite the opposite. I think that was shit on my part. I lacked patience and displine. The misses were all my fault for applying poor fundamentals, but look at the rifle, theres barely any movement. I do shoulder hard and weigh 230lbs so that helps in the prone but I don't believe if I were to mount that scope to my M1A SOCOM16 in a Gen2 VLTOR M1-S, I would of been so lucky with that same cadence. It was all the gun and I wish I had done my part and made the gun look even better. Next time!

So admittedly, I am very biased towards the SIG, but it's not emotional it's business! My SIG 716I performs and it does it reliably always serving its purpose. That being said I feel the SIG 716I is the best AR-308/ AR-10 type rifle you can buy for the money. It will accomplish all your goals and then some. So really lean on it. It won't let you down.
Here are a few links to read up on user reviews and opposition thoughts regarding the SIG 716I both here and at ARFCOM.
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...r-10-type-battle-rifle-for-the-money.7080207/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/...08-AR-10-type-rifle-for-the-money-/45-521591/

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

I'm looking at getting the sig for myself for the same reasons. Here in America they are 1500usd with taxes and everything. Apparently they are issuing them in the thousands to Indian soldiers right now.

As for hunting you will get around 2400-2500fps with various types of hunting ammo out of a 16" 308. More than enough to kill anything you would want to shoot with a 30 caliber bullet at normal distances.

Thank you very much.
So with the rule of thump of up to 50fps lost per inch of barrel (shorter), I would still get 2200-2250 FPS out of a 13.5" barrel?
Wouldn't this be a challenge at a hunting distance around 300m, retaining enough velocity for optimal performance of a hunting round? Which I understand for many rounds is around 1800fps.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Here's a video of me going 8-11 on a 280yd 10" steel plate at a 29° slope angle off bipod, at a fairly quick pace with no speed editing. I'm not claiming to be a great marksman, quite the opposite. I think that was shit on my part. I lacked patience and displine. The misses were all my fault for applying poor fundamentals, but look at the rifle, theres barely any movement. I do shoulder hard and weigh 230lbs so that helps in the prone but I don't believe if I were to mount that scope to my M1A SOCOM16 in a Gen2 VLTOR M1-S, I would of been so lucky with that same cadence. It was all the gun and I wish I had done my part and made the gun look even better. Next time!

So admittedly, I am very biased towards the SIG, but it's not emotional it's business! My SIG 716I performs and it does it reliably always serving its purpose. That being said I feel the SIG 716I is the best AR-308/ AR-10 type rifle you can buy for the money. It will accomplish all your goals and then some. So really lean on it. It won't let you down.
Here are a few links to read up on user reviews and opposition thoughts regarding the SIG 716I both here and at ARFCOM.
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...r-10-type-battle-rifle-for-the-money.7080207/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/...08-AR-10-type-rifle-for-the-money-/45-521591/
View attachment 7669657

Lots of interesting stuff to read here, thank you very much.

 

[BCP]

Thank you very much.
So with the rule of thump of up to 50fps lost per inch of barrel (shorter), I would still get 2200-2250 FPS out of a 13.5" barrel?
Wouldn't this be a challenge at a hunting distance around 300m, retaining enough velocity for optimal performance of a hunting round? Which I understand for many rounds is around 1800fps.

Probably within 50-60fps between the two of them.

How do you get guns over there? Do you import them from US dealers or is it whatever is available in your area?

 

[theLBC]

i have heard lots of good things about the tread and basic quality for price.
the only negative thing i have heard is that getting parts like a spare bolt is not an option currently (if you're preparing for a zombie apocalypse).

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Probably within 50-60fps between the two of them.

How do you get guns over there? Do you import them from US dealers or is it whatever is available in your area?

Whatever is available at European importers. At the moment it seem to be MP10, DB10 and Sig Thread.... Likely also Aero Precision. Small numbers trickle in.

In other a aspects, Denmark is a country where you can pay 80 US cents for a 308W FMJ as well as 23 cents for 9MM FMJ. So ammo wise it's not too bad

 

[Jsp556]

What did you end up buying?

 

[GLD1980]

i have heard lots of good things about the tread and basic quality for price.
the only negative thing i have heard is that getting parts like a spare bolt is not an option currently (if you're preparing for a zombie apocalypse).

@theLBC

@BCP spoke to SIG an informed us SIG said spare parts will be available soon.

I also sent them an email and will inform the group of the response.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

What did you end up buying?

Haven't bought anything yet. It appears the 716i Thread is delayed in regards to the European market, at worst end of 2021.
This is a major issue to me, since red deer season starts September 1

For now I have an option of getting a DB10 16" barrel, which is in ther Carbon range (Budget class). It appears that most of the diffenrences from the Carbon and the Black Gold is of external cosmetic value - I can live with that.
If anyone got any practical experience with the Carbon class (current version) I'm all ears. I'm especially interested in hearing about the handguard;

1. Is it rigid and sturdy or slightly flexible like the handguard on the 308W POF rifles? I intend to mount a bipod on my future rifle.
2. Are the different DB10 rifle classes inter changeable, can I mount a Black Gold class handguard on a Carbon class rifle?

The rifle I might be getting is this one:

DB10CCMLB

Diamondback Firearms is pleased to provide you the latest specifications and details on the DB10CCMLB model, click now to find the information you need!

diamondbackfirearms.com

 

[Wizard1183]

I'm going to buy one of these two rifles for hunting purposes..... And zombie apocalypse

Expected hunting distances is 300m maximum. Not planning on doing long range shooting with it, although I will be testing either one at my local 600m range from time to time - Just for the hell of it.

Any practical experience with either or both is much appriciated, especially regarding maximum distances for retaining effective expansion of hunting ammo. Similar experience with sub sonic hunting munitions and suppressor is also wanted.

https://www.sigsauer.com/sig716-tread.html - 16" barrel

https://diamondbackfirearms.com/portfolio/db10p13bgsb/ - 13,5" barrel - If I go with this solution, brace is off ASAP. No brace shenanigans in Denmark

Attached photo is my own illustrative mock-up.

An Ase Ultra suppressor is also part of the plan.

And yeah Sightmark 3-18 MR2 might be sligthly over-scoped for a 13,5" barrel

View attachment 7669264

Why not buy an AR15 type rifle? I'm glad you asked. AR15 are not allowed in Denmark, however, an AR 308W is. Don't ask me why, Danish gun laws makes about as much sense as a football bat.

Anyways, I'm new to the forum and I look forward to learning new stuff - 25 years in the Danish Army, now I'm a happy civilian.

I’d go Sig simply for longer barrel. Longer barrel equals more accuracy down range.

 

[loveha]

I’d go Sig simply for longer barrel. Longer barrel equals more accuracy down range.

Velocity. Which let's you sit farther with more kinetic energy.

A 12.5" can be just as accurate as a 26" barrel. One just pushes a bullet faster.

 

[Wizard1183]

Velocity. Which let's you sit farther with more kinetic energy.

A 12.5" can be just as accurate as a 26" barrel. One just pushes a bullet faster.

Thank you

 

[BCP]

Haven't bought anything yet. It appears the 716i Thread is delayed in regards to the European market, at worst end of 2021.
This is a major issue to me, since red deer season starts September 1

For now I have an option of getting a DB10 16" barrel, which is in ther Carbon range (Budget class). It appears that most of the diffenrences from the Carbon and the Black Gold is of external cosmetic value - I can live with that.
If anyone got any practical experience with the Carbon class (current version) I'm all ears. I'm especially interested in hearing about the handguard;

1. Is it rigid and sturdy or slightly flexible like the handguard on the 308W POF rifles? I intend to mount a bipod on my future rifle.
2. Are the different DB10 rifle classes inter changeable, can I mount a Black Gold class handguard on a Carbon class rifle?

The rifle I might be getting is this one:

DB10CCMLB

Diamondback Firearms is pleased to provide you the latest specifications and details on the DB10CCMLB model, click now to find the information you need!

diamondbackfirearms.com

Well the diamondback rifles look like regular dpms pattern so there should be plenty of handguards for it.

 

[Praetorian_6]

You steered the convo in the direction of the Sig in your first post. I would certainly pick it over a 13.5" barrel for .308. My reading suggests going much shorter than 16" and the muzzle velocity really starts dropping off.

The Truth About Barrel Length, Muzzle Velocity and Accuracy - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Josh Wayner’s taken it upon himself to challenge what everyone “knows” as far as barrel length, velocity and accuracy are concerned. According to his results, the conventional wisdom ain’t all that wise when it comes to longer-barreled ballistics. The only question...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Now, you've found the biggest two advocates for the 716i Tread on the site in @BCP & @GLD1980 . While I do not share their belief in the rifle, their enthusiasm for it may turn out to be well-founded in time, but it's a really new rifle and the jury is still out. Rather than re-litigate the case, you can read the points made across the board about it here: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...r-10-type-battle-rifle-for-the-money.7080207/

 

[GLD1980]

So I'm thinking I may contact this guy to get the skinny on the 716I. It seems he has access to Soldiers issued the 716I in India. All his videos showcase the 716I with Indian Soldiers with various Day/Night Sight setups along with it serving in various roles from the looks of some of the squad compositions displayed. Take a look at his other videos if you find time.



I definitely have not fired enough rounds to pass definitive judgment on the 716I, but given the facts at this time I'm definitely not going to bet against it. It's a hell of a rifle.

 

[GUNNER10]

I'm going to buy one of these two rifles for hunting purposes..... And zombie apocalypse

Expected hunting distances is 300m maximum. Not planning on doing long range shooting with it, although I will be testing either one at my local 600m range from time to time - Just for the hell of it.

Any practical experience with either or both is much appriciated, especially regarding maximum distances for retaining effective expansion of hunting ammo. Similar experience with sub sonic hunting munitions and suppressor is also wanted.

https://www.sigsauer.com/sig716-tread.html - 16" barrel

https://diamondbackfirearms.com/portfolio/db10p13bgsb/ - 13,5" barrel - If I go with this solution, brace is off ASAP. No brace shenanigans in Denmark

Attached photo is my own illustrative mock-up.

An Ase Ultra suppressor is also part of the plan.

And yeah Sightmark 3-18 MR2 might be sligthly over-scoped for a 13,5" barrel

View attachment 7669264

Why not buy an AR15 type rifle? I'm glad you asked. AR15 are not allowed in Denmark, however, an AR 308W is. Don't ask me why, Danish gun laws makes about as much sense as a football bat.

Anyways, I'm new to the forum and I look forward to learning new stuff - 25 years in the Danish Army, now I'm a happy civilian.

Good Stuff, Welcome, w

We have some Danes running around here in Kuwait, Good guys. A couple years ago, ran into one guy that no shit look like Rangnar from Vikings

I would probably lean towards the Sig, as one does not know how long smaller companies are going to be around, and it appears that at least in regards to the Tread, the Indian MoD contract seem to indicate that it might stick around for a while. Per youtube, both seem to have solid reviews, and no really issues on the forums.

Also, I would really not get to discouraged with a 13.5 barrel in 308, Modern bullets really dont have an issues clearing 800 yards, and things like the 13.5 Scars, MWS's and 14.5 SR25 demonstrate that shorter 308's are viable for shooting man size targets.

One of the members here has a good vid on short 308 gas guns

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Good Stuff, Welcome, w

We have some Danes running around here in Kuwait, Good guys. A couple years ago, ran into one guy that no shit look like Rangnar from Vikings

I would probably lean towards the Sig, as one does not know how long smaller companies are going to be around, and it appears that at least in regards to the Tread, the Indian MoD contract seem to indicate that it might stick around for a while. Per youtube, both seem to have solid reviews, and no really issues on the forums.

Also, I would really not get to discouraged with a 13.5 barrel in 308, Modern bullets really dont have an issues clearing 800 yards, and things like the 13.5 Scars, MWS's and 14.5 SR25 demonstrate that shorter 308's are viable for shooting man size targets.

One of the members here has a good vid on short 308 gas guns

Solid reflections on either rifle, thank you very much.

In regards to chosing between either rifle I ended up in a limbo the other day, Sig Sauer dragging its' feet on getting the Thread on the European market, late 2021 now likely.... And a DB10 13.5" was snuffed right under my nose in another shop. This is quite shit, as red deer season starts in a month and I have just sold my Rem 700 SPS Tactical.

In the proces of finding an Aero Precision M5E1 20" on the European market. This gun seems like a solid piece of kit.

So at the moment I'm like the kid at the proverbial candy shop, who can't reach the top shelves...

 

[GUNNER10]

Solid reflections on either rifle, thank you very much.

In regards to chosing between either rifle I ended up in a limbo the other day, Sig Sauer dragging its' feet on getting the Thread on the European market, late 2021 now likely.... And a DB10 13.5" was snuffed right under my nose in another shop. This is quite shit, as red deer season starts in a month and I have just sold my Rem 700 SPS Tactical.

In the proces of finding an Aero Precision M5E1 20" on the European market. This gun seems like a solid piece of kit.

So at the moment I'm like the kid at the proverbial candy shop, who can't reach the top shelves...

While I currently shoot and prefer factory guns like KAC and LMT, I have honestly built a couple 308 gas guns and never had any issues. I think that 308 AR's have matured allot in the last decade or so to the point that even stuff on the lower end of the market are pretty good guns?

Can you track down anything from Knights, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense or Barrett? Just curious what manufactures are available in Denmark?

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

We do have stuff like LMT and DD hitting European shelves, however, 308 rifles from those brands are in the area of 4668-5625$ - Absolutely mental and waaay out of my range and financial temperament.

This narrows it down a bit and I'm more of a potential SIG, Aero Precision, Diamondback Firearms customer...... Unless someone dumped a factory new DD 308 on my doorstep, then I'd just go to the police and have it registred, hahaha

 

[GUNNER10]

We do have stuff like LMT and DD hitting European shelves, however, 308 rifles from those brands are in the area of 4668-5625$ - Absolutely mental and waaay out of my range and financial temperament.

This narrows it down a bit and I'm more of a potential SIG, Aero Precision, Diamondback Firearms customer...... Unless someone dumped a factory new DD 308 on my doorstep, then I'd just go to the police and have it registred, hahaha

Ok, so you guys are paying a good 30 to 40 percent mark up on some of the US stuff.

Whats the process like in Denmark for getting stuff like 308 AR's? can you get any other modern stuff Scars or anything?

 

[Praetorian_6]

Congrats on the AP route. You'll find way more parts availability and those guns run very well.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Ok, so you guys are paying a good 30 to 40 percent mark up on some of the US stuff.

Whats the process like in Denmark for getting stuff like 308 AR's? can you get any other modern stuff Scars or anything?

They are available on the European market, but haven't seen them in any shops in Denmark.

In general there's not a very strong gun culture in Denmark, what there is revolves around hunting with repeter rifles and static sports shooting, with a dabble of IPSC. Tacticaly themed shooting is not legal and the concept is frowned upon even amongst many sports shooter circles.

I cannot legally own an M1 US carbine nor an .223 AR15, but an AR10 style rifle for hunting is not an issue. It's nuts as the two afformentioned calibers in a repeter rifle is ok.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Congrats on the AP route. You'll find way more parts availability and those guns run very well.

Yeah I might end up with an AP, or an Oberland Arms or Haenel, these two brands are German and they produce a lot of quality tuff for the civilian German market.
Lately Haenel won the contract of supplying the next rifle system to the Bundeswehr (German military).

 

[BCP]

Haenal rifles look nice. We don't get those here.

The Diamondback and Aero rifles are assembled by those companies with parts from (mostly) other people. The sig is a bit more "purpose built" with a handguard that attaches a little differently and some other small differences. Right now I have a larue predatar which would be perfect for you but I doubt you can get one imported, plus it's double the sig @ retail.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Haenal rifles look nice. We don't get those here.

The Diamondback and Aero rifles are assembled by those companies with parts from (mostly) other people. The sig is a bit more "purpose built" with a handguard that attaches a little differently and some other small differences. Right now I have a larue predatar which would be perfect for you but I doubt you can get one imported, plus it's double the sig @ retail.

View attachment 7678523

The Larue does look nice and would fit my purpose but not my wallet

Here's a breakdown of the Haenel in 308W:
Here's a video regarding the Oberland Arms in 308, nice intro showcasing the gun and then talk in German/Austrian:

 

[mark5pt56]

I have one and love it. I have a PSTII 1-6 on mine, only changes were changing stocks with my one LMT, that helps with the increased recoil and cheek position. I did have a BCM PNT trigger as a spare and changed that out as the factory one is a standard "Mil-Spec" one.
I wanted to keep it pretty much what it is-a 16" .308 carbine. It performs great in it's class and not make it what it's not-a match gun.
Having said that, I went 19/20 on a 6" plate at 300 prone with my mixed brass load of 150 Hornady FMJBT and H4895.

I say get it and keep it simple. Want a Match type gun, go with a 5R LMT

 

[Jsp556]

How much do the Oberland rifles cost?

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Anywhere from 2200 - 4800 $ depending on model and caliber - Looking for a used version.

 

[Praetorian_6]

The Diamondback and Aero rifles are assembled by those companies with parts from (mostly) other people.

@BCP
Would you mind elaborating on that? I thought Aero made almost all of their own stuff with exception to the furniture.

 

[BCP]

@BCP
Would you mind elaborating on that? I thought Aero made almost all of their own stuff with exception to the furniture.

Yeah I think they make more in house than they used to, the Sig is pretty unique though. It has a lot of little things like the way the handguard attaches, the dual ejector bolt, the barrel profile and gas length/pinned block etc, it's kind of like an sr25 carbine for the masses.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

So neither Sig Sauer 716i Thread or Diamondback rifles became available prior to deer season in Denmark.
However, if all goes according to intent, I'll end up with a Savage MSR-10 Hunter mid to late next month..... Cautious hurrah

I got all the other parts sitting in a box waiting for a rifle:

1. Spuhr SP 3016 mount
2. Sightmark 3-18 x 50 Citadel MR2
3. Spuhr A0011, DR/Burris mount
4. Sightmark Minishot M-Spec red dot
5. Magpul M-LOK AFG
6. Magpul M-LOK bipod
7. Undecided suppressor, but a definate want (Not really sitting in a box yet )

The rifle would end up looking something like this.

 

[GUNNER10]

So neither Sig Sauer 716i Thread or Diamondback rifles became available prior to deer season in Denmark.
However, if all goes according to intent, I'll end up with a Savage MSR-10 Hunter mid to late next month..... Cautious hurrah

I got all the other parts sitting in a box waiting for a rifle:

1. Spuhr SP 3016 mount
2. Sightmark 3-18 x 50 Citadel MR2
3. Spuhr A0011, DR/Burris mount
4. Sightmark Minishot M-Spec red dot
5. Magpul M-LOK AFG
6. Magpul M-LOK bipod
7. Undecided suppressor, but a definate want (Not really sitting in a box yet )

The rifle would end up looking something like this.

Cool,

Savage makes good stuff. Barrel to barrel, they tend to out shoot most Remington's of the same profile in their bolt guns so their gas gun does seem neat, What are they going for over your way?


Small Arms solutions did a vid on them and they seem like they are good to go.

 

[Praetorian_6]

I don't know much about that one, but I hope it lives up to your hopes & needs. Good luck, and happy hunting!

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Cool,

Savage makes good stuff. Barrel to barrel, they tend to out shoot most Remington's of the same profile in their bolt guns so their gas gun does seem neat, What are they going for over your way?


Small Arms solutions did a vid on them and they seem like they are good to go.

Saw the video a while ago and the detailed walk-throug of the rifle did it for me..... That and general availability of this particular model so close to deer season

A rifle like this cost around 2300 $ in Europe, so a significant mark up, but guns in Europe are in general more expensive than in America.

Once in my hands and assembled I'll put up some pictures of the rig.

 

[GUNNER10]

Saw the video a while ago and the detailed walk-throug of the rifle did it for me..... That and general availability of this particular model so close to deer season

A rifle like this cost around 2300 $ in Europe, so a significant mark up, but guns in Europe are in general more expensive than in America.

Once in my hands and assembled I'll put up some pictures of the rig.

Curious,

Do you guys get any type of EU discount when purchasing say Swiss Arms, FN, or HK 308 gas guns?

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Curious,

Do you guys get any type of EU discount when purchasing say Swiss Arms, FN, or HK 308 gas guns?

Nope, an HK MR308 series (Civvie 417 rifle) still costs between 2930-3580 $ for the naked rifle, then add scope, rings, lights, etc. to that.

Haenel rifles in 308W (German AR10 type rifle) is around 4444 $ for the naked rifle.

 

[Pen & Sword Life]

Ended up with ordering a Savage MSR-10 Hunter and judging by the reviews I've read, it's a gun that will not dissapoint.

Import permit arrived late last week and if all goes well, it'll be in my hands early last week of September - This wil, at best, give me two days for setup and zero on the range before first driven hunt of the fall on Oct 2....... We shall see.

I'm thinking about replacing the stock with a Magpul CTR stock and aftermarket attach a LaRue RISR. If any of you guys have experience with this stock setup, please give me your input on usability.

With a 16" barrel, I'm going for a kind of compact setup and a cross between a DMR and a battlerifle (Plinking and hunting gun).

I'm also looking at fitting a suppressor which won't extend the "barrel length" too much (Max 22").

I got all parts present apart from CTR stock and supressor and the setup will be along the lines of the picture attached.

As soon as I got everything setup and I plan on doing a T&E/review post with pics and video

 

[eastexsteve]

Ended up with ordering a Savage MSR-10 Hunter and judging by the reviews I've read, it's a gun that will not dissapoint.

From my hands-on experience, I don't think you would be disappointed with either gun. I would prefer them with 18" barrels though.

 

[abn_surfer]

I am selling a BNIB Sig 716i. I just got it this month and decided to go in another direction.