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Advanced Marksmanship lop
- Thread starter thurman
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Re: lop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thurman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">new to long range shooting and i have a question.how do i determan my corect length of pull? thanks in advance </div></div>
To determine the LOP that is right for you, bend your arm and place the end of a yardstick in the bend of your elbow of your trigger finger side arm. Measure from the bend of the elbow to the first joint of your trigger finger. Presto that's your LOP
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thurman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">new to long range shooting and i have a question.how do i determan my corect length of pull? thanks in advance </div></div>
To determine the LOP that is right for you, bend your arm and place the end of a yardstick in the bend of your elbow of your trigger finger side arm. Measure from the bend of the elbow to the first joint of your trigger finger. Presto that's your LOP
copied from another site
Re: lop
LOP measued in that fashion is designed to get you into the Olympic style standing/offhand and prone slung positions. It is far too long for a tactical shooting style, when you get straight behind the rifle, shoulders at 90 degrees to the bore line. Most factory rifles are set up in this manner, with 13 to 14 inches being 'normal'.
In reality, 12.25 to 12.75 is a good range for a tactical rifle. What you should look at is shoulder to eye, since we need to get squared up behind the gun in all positions, placing our eye is the same position behind the scope.
Note that this will gennerally prohibit the classic slung positioning, where the elbow is placed directly under the barrel. You will end up with the shoulder line near 45 degrees to the bore line and be far too close to the scope. This is fine for target shooting, in fact, it is desireable if that is the only type of shooting being considered. It is not at all what we want in a practical/tactical postion.
We sacrifice some perfect bone support in the position to better control recoil, letting us stay on the scope through the shot, spot impact, run the bolt while staying on target and in the sight, shooting again as required.
SO, if it's a target rifle the elbow to finger is a good starting point, in a practical rifle, try 12.5 and tweak if required.
LOP measued in that fashion is designed to get you into the Olympic style standing/offhand and prone slung positions. It is far too long for a tactical shooting style, when you get straight behind the rifle, shoulders at 90 degrees to the bore line. Most factory rifles are set up in this manner, with 13 to 14 inches being 'normal'.
In reality, 12.25 to 12.75 is a good range for a tactical rifle. What you should look at is shoulder to eye, since we need to get squared up behind the gun in all positions, placing our eye is the same position behind the scope.
Note that this will gennerally prohibit the classic slung positioning, where the elbow is placed directly under the barrel. You will end up with the shoulder line near 45 degrees to the bore line and be far too close to the scope. This is fine for target shooting, in fact, it is desireable if that is the only type of shooting being considered. It is not at all what we want in a practical/tactical postion.
We sacrifice some perfect bone support in the position to better control recoil, letting us stay on the scope through the shot, spot impact, run the bolt while staying on target and in the sight, shooting again as required.
SO, if it's a target rifle the elbow to finger is a good starting point, in a practical rifle, try 12.5 and tweak if required.
Re: lop
In general, either you make yourself fit the gun, or you make the gun fit you. LOP is one of several considerations. If you're competing in HP, a stock with adjustable pull, comb, and butt will allow for the rifle to fit for muscular relaxation in standing, sitting, and prone position. Typically, muscular relaxation can be achieved in the standing position with a relatively short pull, low comb, and butt plate. In prone, the pull will be somewhat longer, comb higher, and butt plate higher. Also, to allow a low gun position, an adjustable hand-stop may come to your aid. In addition, the butt may also be adjustable to cant, to allow the rifle to be squared without muscular effort.
Using an off the rack rifle, you, obviously, need to make do with what you've got. But, for prone, making do may only require a scope mount which allows the scope to be positioned rearward or forward enough to get proper eye relief from the fixed LOP. BTW, a relatively short pull will help balance the rifle, possibly reducing wobble.
Understand too, the adjustments necessary for a proper position, without the aid of artificial support, where the non-firing hand is placed on the fore-end with elbow under the rifle, is somewhat different than adjustments necessary for a rifle supported with a bipod, since, with bipod, the non-firing arm is no longer necessary for support of the fore-end and can be placed elsewhere.
In general, either you make yourself fit the gun, or you make the gun fit you. LOP is one of several considerations. If you're competing in HP, a stock with adjustable pull, comb, and butt will allow for the rifle to fit for muscular relaxation in standing, sitting, and prone position. Typically, muscular relaxation can be achieved in the standing position with a relatively short pull, low comb, and butt plate. In prone, the pull will be somewhat longer, comb higher, and butt plate higher. Also, to allow a low gun position, an adjustable hand-stop may come to your aid. In addition, the butt may also be adjustable to cant, to allow the rifle to be squared without muscular effort.
Using an off the rack rifle, you, obviously, need to make do with what you've got. But, for prone, making do may only require a scope mount which allows the scope to be positioned rearward or forward enough to get proper eye relief from the fixed LOP. BTW, a relatively short pull will help balance the rifle, possibly reducing wobble.
Understand too, the adjustments necessary for a proper position, without the aid of artificial support, where the non-firing hand is placed on the fore-end with elbow under the rifle, is somewhat different than adjustments necessary for a rifle supported with a bipod, since, with bipod, the non-firing arm is no longer necessary for support of the fore-end and can be placed elsewhere.
Re: lop
Cory, I dont think we agree. For a fast handling shotgun or carbine I cut LOP short so it kicks up to shoulder fast and is easier to use for body armor but for a rifle I want it to fit me.
I run 13.5-14" LOP for all around Tactical Shooting and .50" longer for straight up prone shooting only.
I find shooters who run real short LOP on a field sniper type rifle have a hard time getting consistent cheek weld.
Cory, I dont think we agree. For a fast handling shotgun or carbine I cut LOP short so it kicks up to shoulder fast and is easier to use for body armor but for a rifle I want it to fit me.
I run 13.5-14" LOP for all around Tactical Shooting and .50" longer for straight up prone shooting only.
I find shooters who run real short LOP on a field sniper type rifle have a hard time getting consistent cheek weld.
Re: lop
Interesting. Most of the students complain about the 13 to 14 inch LOP when we get them squared up on the first day of the PR classes. I put them on my 12.5 in gun and they are comfy. This is a case of, "if it works for you, why change?"
Interesting. Most of the students complain about the 13 to 14 inch LOP when we get them squared up on the first day of the PR classes. I put them on my 12.5 in gun and they are comfy. This is a case of, "if it works for you, why change?"
Re: lop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. Most of the students complain about the 13 to 14 inch LOP when we get them squared up on the first day of the PR classes. I put them on my 12.5 in gun and they are comfy. This is a case of, "if it works for you, why change?"</div></div>
Here's the long and short of it, as the position gets higher from the ground the butt-to-shoulder position gets higher and a muscularly relaxed stock weld will position the eyeball further from the sight. This means a stock with fixed pull, butt, and comb will be less than an ideal fit from any position.
Positions built with artificial support, which do not require non-firing hand contact with the fore-end make length of pull moot for most; and, shooting exclusively from the prone position, of course, allows the shooter to modify the rifle for an exact fit for the prone position. But, for shooters who will shoot from a multitude of positions, without an adjustable stock, the shooter will need to stop complaining and just learn to fit the gun, as compromised as that may be.
Interestingly, I have a prone stock which is adjustable for everything; yet, surprisingly, not as comfortable as my Service Rifle.
One other thing, sometimes I find students complaining about their initial experience in the prone sandbag supported position with the non-firing hand in contact with the fore-end. Thing is, they often attribute their feeling with some aspect of gun fit rather than accepting the physical pain as part of the learning experience. Once these shooter's come to understand how to properly build their position, thereby revealing muscular relaxation, their complaints stop.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. Most of the students complain about the 13 to 14 inch LOP when we get them squared up on the first day of the PR classes. I put them on my 12.5 in gun and they are comfy. This is a case of, "if it works for you, why change?"</div></div>
Here's the long and short of it, as the position gets higher from the ground the butt-to-shoulder position gets higher and a muscularly relaxed stock weld will position the eyeball further from the sight. This means a stock with fixed pull, butt, and comb will be less than an ideal fit from any position.
Positions built with artificial support, which do not require non-firing hand contact with the fore-end make length of pull moot for most; and, shooting exclusively from the prone position, of course, allows the shooter to modify the rifle for an exact fit for the prone position. But, for shooters who will shoot from a multitude of positions, without an adjustable stock, the shooter will need to stop complaining and just learn to fit the gun, as compromised as that may be.
Interestingly, I have a prone stock which is adjustable for everything; yet, surprisingly, not as comfortable as my Service Rifle.
One other thing, sometimes I find students complaining about their initial experience in the prone sandbag supported position with the non-firing hand in contact with the fore-end. Thing is, they often attribute their feeling with some aspect of gun fit rather than accepting the physical pain as part of the learning experience. Once these shooter's come to understand how to properly build their position, thereby revealing muscular relaxation, their complaints stop.
Re: lop
Cory, I find unless a guy is fairly small they break cheek weld when they run the bolt with short LOP. I know if I run a 12.5 LOP I will hit my face when I run the bolt.. I am not small but not biggest guy around either. Everyone needs a different LOP but the normal guy needs around 13-13.5" as it has been for last one hundred years. Hitting a target is still hitting a target.
As to new students I find they often like what they are told is best by instructor they are paying. I bet you could get them to use a turd for a rear support and some would like it as well. They come for instruction and hope you will find an easy fix for thier problems. You say shorten LOP and they jump at chance it will fix the problem. In reality they need fundementals and hard work.
I agree what works is what is best but if it does not work with slung position in my opinion it does not work as well as it should.
If we where talking about Scoutrifles I would be all for a short LOP but not for absolute precision work.
Cory, I find unless a guy is fairly small they break cheek weld when they run the bolt with short LOP. I know if I run a 12.5 LOP I will hit my face when I run the bolt.. I am not small but not biggest guy around either. Everyone needs a different LOP but the normal guy needs around 13-13.5" as it has been for last one hundred years. Hitting a target is still hitting a target.
As to new students I find they often like what they are told is best by instructor they are paying. I bet you could get them to use a turd for a rear support and some would like it as well. They come for instruction and hope you will find an easy fix for thier problems. You say shorten LOP and they jump at chance it will fix the problem. In reality they need fundementals and hard work.
I agree what works is what is best but if it does not work with slung position in my opinion it does not work as well as it should.
If we where talking about Scoutrifles I would be all for a short LOP but not for absolute precision work.
Re: lop
Hmm. Tall or short realy has little to do with the problem. The critical dimension is really shoulder to eye distance, which is pretty contstant between 5 and 7 inches. I run my .338 LM at 13", only because that is as short as the stock will go. I have a full 1.5 inches of clearance before my bolt hand could touch my face. The key to that is my shoulders are at near 90 degrees to the bore line. As the support shoulder moves forward, so does the head. If I use a conventional standing postion, my eye would be in contact with the scope, clearly that would be a problem.
In most cases, the forend will be using some sort of artificial support, so the support arm position is not critical to the support of the gun.
Where there is no other support possible, my sitting and kneeling and offhand postions do not conform to the target shooting conventional standards. They are nevertheless stable enough for pratical use. I use your sling and have no trouble with the bolt or eye relief.
I think this thread needs some pictures, when I'm don with class I'm going to take some and try to better illustrate what I'm describing here.
Hmm. Tall or short realy has little to do with the problem. The critical dimension is really shoulder to eye distance, which is pretty contstant between 5 and 7 inches. I run my .338 LM at 13", only because that is as short as the stock will go. I have a full 1.5 inches of clearance before my bolt hand could touch my face. The key to that is my shoulders are at near 90 degrees to the bore line. As the support shoulder moves forward, so does the head. If I use a conventional standing postion, my eye would be in contact with the scope, clearly that would be a problem.
In most cases, the forend will be using some sort of artificial support, so the support arm position is not critical to the support of the gun.
Where there is no other support possible, my sitting and kneeling and offhand postions do not conform to the target shooting conventional standards. They are nevertheless stable enough for pratical use. I use your sling and have no trouble with the bolt or eye relief.
I think this thread needs some pictures, when I'm don with class I'm going to take some and try to better illustrate what I'm describing here.
Re: lop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cory I look forward to the photos. Need to understand how it is too close for standing but is fine for seated. </div></div>
Mike,
Cory's right...
Take two 12" rulers. Put one (#1) in your shoulder pocket out 90 degrees from your shoulder. Put the other one from your nose to touch Ruler #1 (don't lose that angle off your nose). Look at the triangle. Move #1 off 90 degrees into your chest and see #2 get shorter.
Too many people set up the rifle for prone. Its too long or the scope is too far forward when shooting any other position.
Its easier to turkey neck forward when you take a too long setup from prone and shoot it from other positions, but you also change head positions and start to get scope shadow, inconsistent cheek weld, a different head orientation (no longer straight up behind the scope), plus other gremlins.
There's more, but Cory covered it well enough. Most people find a happy middle ground between 12" and 13" making themselves fit the rifle in multiple positions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cory I look forward to the photos. Need to understand how it is too close for standing but is fine for seated. </div></div>
Mike,
Cory's right...
Take two 12" rulers. Put one (#1) in your shoulder pocket out 90 degrees from your shoulder. Put the other one from your nose to touch Ruler #1 (don't lose that angle off your nose). Look at the triangle. Move #1 off 90 degrees into your chest and see #2 get shorter.
Too many people set up the rifle for prone. Its too long or the scope is too far forward when shooting any other position.
Its easier to turkey neck forward when you take a too long setup from prone and shoot it from other positions, but you also change head positions and start to get scope shadow, inconsistent cheek weld, a different head orientation (no longer straight up behind the scope), plus other gremlins.
There's more, but Cory covered it well enough. Most people find a happy middle ground between 12" and 13" making themselves fit the rifle in multiple positions.
Re: lop
JW, the rifle has to be set up for a medium between all positions. Thats a given. At 14.0" LOP I find this easily done and able to shoot in all positions without craining neck.
JW, the rifle has to be set up for a medium between all positions. Thats a given. At 14.0" LOP I find this easily done and able to shoot in all positions without craining neck.
