LOW scopes

[Mjnelson]

Razor, Tango6, Cronus, Tract, and others.
For those that are in the know or have played with a lot of them. Is there much beyond turret and paint job between the revisions? Glass and reliability is the same? Been doing a lot of research for new scope and curious if spending the extra cash on a razor gets you anything beyond a paint job vs going with say Cronus.
thanks!

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Razor, Tango6, Cronus, Tract, and others.
For those that are in the know or have played with a lot of them. Is there much beyond turret and paint job between the revisions? Glass and reliability is the same? Been doing a lot of research for new scope and curious if spending the extra cash on a razor gets you anything beyond a paint job vs going with say Cronus.
thanks!

It's less about the glass itself and more about the coatings used on the glass. The coatings are what make the difference, and coatings are proprietary to a given scope company.

 

[Neurotic]

It's less about the glass itself and more about the coatings used on the glass. The coatings are what make the difference, and coatings are proprietary to a given scope company.

And the turrets are different...

 

[BCP]

Razor, Tango6, Cronus, Tract, and others.
For those that are in the know or have played with a lot of them. Is there much beyond turret and paint job between the revisions? Glass and reliability is the same? Been doing a lot of research for new scope and curious if spending the extra cash on a razor gets you anything beyond a paint job vs going with say Cronus.
thanks!

The scopes you are talking about are generally reliable and the glass quality is "good enough" so it's more about the turrets you want, the reticule you want and the company you want to deal with if something breaks. As for the particulars like glass and coatings and where it was built (they have factories in Phillipines too) I don't think there is any way to tell. You might be getting the exact same glass and coatings across several different model lines and brands or you might be getting proprietary coatings.

 

[Mjnelson]

The scopes you are talking about are generally reliable and the glass quality is "good enough" so it's more about the turrets you want, the reticule you want and the company you want to deal with if something breaks. As for the particulars like glass and coatings and where it was built (they have factories in Phillipines too) I don't think there is any way to tell. You might be getting the exact same glass and coatings across several different model lines and brands or you might be getting proprietary coatings.

Kinda what I figured.

 

[Birddog6424]

There's very little deviation, outside of cosmetics, the differences are fairly subtle. They do tend to re-use designs. For example, the Tract Toric and Delta Stryker seem to share the same basic design. Both weigh 41ozs and use the same gargantuan turret design. They only seem to differ cosmetically.

Pretty much everything from LOW is solid and dependable. Watching people discuss which one is better is totally semantics. As mentioned, pick the reticle and company you want to deal with.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Going off my samples there seems to be quite a bit of variation in glass. They're all good but not spectacular. If you bargin hunt They're probably the best bang for the buck manufacturer.

Off the top of my head compared to my spotting equipment that people might be more familiar with. The spotting equipment of course is better glass.

Tr25=my swaro slc. Warm real life feel. They're all pretty close but I'd say this had the lowest clarity but is my favorite.

Bushy SMRS2=Leica. Have a monovid and 2800. Best clarity but cool image. More like looking at a high definition screen than the being there feel of the tr25/slc. I get the same feeling form Leica binos and prefer the swaro.
Probably my least favorite glass but I really like the scope.

Vortex lht/kowa 553. Well balanced middle ground.

In summary they seem to have a variety of image presentation. Whether this is different glass or coatings or the way the scopes are set up i don't know.

Eta turrets vary as well and i would assume durability. I can't imagine the bowl of porridge turrets on my lht are as durable as the big g2 razors but it is half the weight.

 

[b6graham]

Pick a turret and reticle

And pick a company

Its vortex across the board for me on all 3 of those categories but your needs may differ

 

[GreenMushroom]

There's very little deviation, outside of cosmetics, the differences are fairly subtle. They do tend to re-use designs. For example, the Tract Toric and Delta Stryker seem to share the same basic design. Both weigh 41ozs and use the same gargantuan turret design. They only seem to differ cosmetically.

Pretty much everything from LOW is solid and dependable. Watching people discuss which one is better is totally semantics. As mentioned, pick the reticle and company you want to deal with.

Do you know if the Philippine made scopes are affiliated with LOW? I had read there are 2 optics factories there now. I would assume Low has more than one factory in Japan but wasn't able to find much info. They do have a cool website though.

 

[BCP]

Do you know if the Philippine made scopes are affiliated with LOW? I had read there are 2 optics factories there now. I would assume Low has more than one factory in Japan but wasn't able to find much info. They do have a cool website though.

One of the optics gurus stated on here that the LOW Japan and LOW Phillipines ones were indistinguishable.

 

[st1650]

I have a HDMR 2 and a Cronus non-btr 4.5-29. The Cronus has better glass but the turrets on the HDMR2 are really really nice.
I also really really like my 1-8 Burris XTR II FFP. Got it for less than 600$, what a steal. I didn't even have a rifle to put it on but I think I might run it on my 16" 308 since the BDC seems to batch quite closely.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I have a HDMR 2 and a Cronus non-btr 4.5-29. The Cronus has better glass but the turrets on the HDMR2 are really really nice.
I also really really like my 1-8 Burris XTR II FFP. Got it for less than 600$, what a steal. I didn't even have a rifle to put it on but I think I might run it on my 16" 308 since the BDC seems to batch quite closely.

Wish I would have picked one of the 1-8 up. I saw the sale but thought they were Philippine made. Probably gonna do a g3 for my rec but that would have saved some serious coin.

 

[Birddog6424]

Wish I would have picked one of the 1-8 up. I saw the sale but thought they were Philippine made. Probably gonna do a g3 for my rec but that would have saved some serious coin.

The 8x XTRII was made by LOW in Japan. I have a pair of them on my 3 Gun rifles. They were a fantastic value.

I'm curious to see if Burris is going to roll out an 8x or 10x LPVO in the XTR3 lineup.

 

[st1650]

Wish I would have picked one of the 1-8 up. I saw the sale but thought they were Philippine made. Probably gonna do a g3 for my rec but that would have saved some serious coin.

The 1-8 FFP are Japan LOW made.
The 1-8 SFP I'm not sure.
The 1.5-8 is Philippine made I'm pretty sure.


The 1-8 FFP also comes with the mad turret (I choose target style for elevation since it has zero stop) and can dial a whopping 9.5 mil which is more than enough to take a 16" 308 as far as you need to. The windage turret you can cap or use the mad turret. I choose capped obviously.

 

[st1650]

The 8x XTRII was made by LOW in Japan. I have a pair of them on my 3 Gun rifles. They were a fantastic value.

I'm curious to see if Burris is going to roll out an 8x or 10x LPVO in the XTR3 lineup.

I thought only the FFP version was made by LOW in Japan. Anyhow, I prefer FFP for a 1-8 / 1-10 and SFP for 1-6.

 

[Birddog6424]

I thought only the FFP version was made by LOW in Japan. Anyhow, I prefer FFP for a 1-8 / 1-10 and SFP for 1-6.

The original DFP 1.5-8×28 XTRII was made in the Phillipines. Both the SFP and FFP 1-8x24 were made in Japan.

 

[koshkin]

To address a few things in this thread:

-LOW both has their own designs and manufactures scopes per other's designs. They also have hybrid models where they will take LOW's in-house design and add some customer specific features, like turrets, etc. There is significant variation between different LOW-made riflescopes in terms of image quality, mechanical consistency and turret feel. All LOW scopes are generally well made and hold zero, but beyond that the differences can be significant. However, if you are talking about a particular design of theirs that is used by several customers with mostly cosmetic differences, they will all be fairly close.

-Someone mentioned above that the difference is mostly coatings. That's essentially nonsense in the modern day. Coating differences were more significant 20-30 years ago. Now, that have been commoditized to s significant degree. There are still some differences, but they are not very significant.

-There are two primary OEMs in the Phillipines that I know of and vast majority of Phillipine-made products come from them. If LOW has a facility in the Phillipines, I have not seen anything from there.

ILya

 

[Birddog6424]

To address a few things in this thread:

-LOW both has their own designs and manufactures scopes per other's designs. They also have hybrid models where they will take LOW's in-house design and add some customer specific features, like turrets, etc. There is significant variation between different LOW-made riflescopes in terms of image quality, mechanical consistency and turret feel. All LOW scopes are generally well made and hold zero, but beyond that the differences can be significant. However, if you are talking about a particular design of theirs that is used by several customers with mostly cosmetic differences, they will all be fairly close.

-Someone mentioned above that the difference is mostly coatings. That's essentially nonsense in the modern day. Coating differences were more significant 20-30 years ago. Now, that have been commoditized to s significant degree. There are still some differences, but they are not very significant.

-There are two primary OEMs in the Phillipines that I know of and vast majority of Phillipine-made products come from them. If LOW has a facility in the Phillipines, I have not seen anything from there.

ILya

I was also a little surprised by the LOW Phillipines remark. I had never heard that before.

There are a bunch of scopes that run in the $1500 to $1700 price point that seem very similar. Similar designs and characteristics.. All decent optics, but little that truly sets them apart from their peers..

But as you say, there are some that step outside of that box with a unique design and features. The Gen II Razor is a good example. As is the 25x Vudu.

 

[GreenMushroom]

To address a few things in this thread:

-LOW both has their own designs and manufactures scopes per other's designs. They also have hybrid models where they will take LOW's in-house design and add some customer specific features, like turrets, etc. There is significant variation between different LOW-made riflescopes in terms of image quality, mechanical consistency and turret feel. All LOW scopes are generally well made and hold zero, but beyond that the differences can be significant. However, if you are talking about a particular design of theirs that is used by several customers with mostly cosmetic differences, they will all be fairly close.

-Someone mentioned above that the difference is mostly coatings. That's essentially nonsense in the modern day. Coating differences were more significant 20-30 years ago. Now, that have been commoditized to s significant degree. There are still some differences, but they are not very significant.

-There are two primary OEMs in the Phillipines that I know of and vast majority of Phillipine-made products come from them. If LOW has a facility in the Phillipines, I have not seen anything from there.

ILya

The reason I had asked if they were affiliated was it seemed like the Philippine companies were producing scopes that were similar to older low designs. I wondered if they passed those older designs to the Philippines and concentrated on the higher end models in Japan. Do you know if the Philippine oems make there own glass from scratch?

I kind became a nerd for this stuff back when I was shopping for a small spotting scope and almost bought a razor. I did a little more last minute research and found out they had recently switched production to China. I ended up spending a little more for the Kowa and its been amazing. Even the cloth cover is made in japan.

I'm not necessarily against buying Chinese. I have a pair of diamondback hd that for 175 $ are a great value. It just seems like companies kinda pull a bait and switch and pretend like its no big deal. If it's no big deal then they should list where its made on there website for everyone to see.

 

[koshkin]

The reason I had asked if they were affiliated was it seemed like the Philippine companies were producing scopes that were similar to older low designs. I wondered if they passed those older designs to the Philippines and concentrated on the higher end models in Japan. Do you know if the Philippine oems make there own glass from scratch?

I kind became a nerd for this stuff back when I was shopping for a small spotting scope and almost bought a razor. I did a little more last minute research and found out they had recently switched production to China. I ended up spending a little more for the Kowa and its been amazing. Even the cloth cover is made in japan.

I'm not necessarily against buying Chinese. I have a pair of diamondback hd that for 175 $ are a great value. It just seems like companies kinda pull a bait and switch and pretend like its no big deal. If it's no big deal then they should list where its made on there website for everyone to see.

Are there specific Philippine-made scopes you can point out that look like older LOW designs?

Noone really makes their glass from scratch. That would mean doing appropriate melts, etc. They all have optomechanical design capabilities and most have the ability to grind lenses. Coatings are usually farmed out to specialized shops. Mechancial parts are a mix of "farmed out" and "Made in-house". Assembly and QC are in house.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

I was also a little surprised by the LOW Phillipines remark. I had never heard that before.

There are a bunch of scopes that run in the $1500 to $1700 price point that seem very similar. Similar designs and characteristics.. All decent optics, but little that truly sets them apart from their peers..

But as you say, there are some that step outside of that box with a unique design and features. The Gen II Razor is a good example. As is the 25x Vudu.

Gen II Razor design is not shared with anyone else.

LOW's house design that competes in that range is the 4.5-30x56 that is marketed (with some brand specific differences) by Delta, Athlon, Trijicon, Tract, Valdada, etc

ILya

 

[GreenMushroom]

Are there specific Philippine-made scopes you can point out that look like older LOW designs?

Noone really makes their glass from scratch. That would mean doing appropriate melts, etc. They all have optomechanical design capabilities and most have the ability to grind lenses. Coatings are usually farmed out to specialized shops. Mechancial parts are a mix of "farmed out" and "Made in-house". Assembly and QC are in house.

ILya

It's been awhile but I want to say nikon and weaver stuff. Shifted production from Japan to Philippines without the product changing much. I did a lot research on scopes before buying but didn't record any of it. I really just wanted to get some Japanese scopes but ended up doing some reading on the company's.

I'd had a nitrex tr something 3-15 which is a LOW built weaver. Was impressed with the quality for the price and wanted to buy from whoever made it. A little research showed that was LOW and that most "scope companies" don't actually make scopes. Going from memory there's LOW and JOL in Japan and maybe Sako or something. 2 factories in the Phillipines that I couldn't find out much about. Leopold has a facility in Beaverton and there's a facility in Greely Colorado? Buris and steiner and maybe some NF, Triji, Vortex, and Meopta stuff. Didn't read up much on the European or Chinese stuff.

And yes I was talking about the actual glass. I've worked in places that make silicone ingots and turn them into wafers to supply all the chip companies. I figure there's a few big ass factories that make the glass itself. Is this what Schott does?

And I think LOW has a lot of different grades of glass and I'd assume some formulas are proprietary to certain buyers. The image of my tr25 and SMRS2 are very different. I'd wouldn't say ones better than the other but noticeably different. I've also wondered about March and Kowa. Does low make their lenses or do they do it in house?

 

[koshkin]

It's been awhile but I want to say nikon and weaver stuff. Shifted production from Japan to Philippines without the product changing much. I did a lot research on scopes before buying but didn't record any of it. I really just wanted to get some Japanese scopes but ended up doing some reading on the company's.

I'd had a nitrex tr something 3-15 which is a LOW built weaver. Was impressed with the quality for the price and wanted to buy from whoever made it. A little research showed that was LOW and that most "scope companies" don't actually make scopes. Going from memory there's LOW and JOL in Japan and maybe Sako or something. 2 factories in the Phillipines that I couldn't find out much about. Leopold has a facility in Beaverton and there's a facility in Greely Colorado? Buris and steiner and maybe some NF, Triji, Vortex, and Meopta stuff. Didn't read up much on the European or Chinese stuff.

And yes I was talking about the actual glass. I've worked in places that make silicone ingots and turn them into wafers to supply all the chip companies. I figure there's a few big ass factories that make the glass itself. Is this what Schott does?

And I think LOW has a lot of different grades of glass and I'd assume some formulas are proprietary to certain buyers. The image of my tr25 and SMRS2 are very different. I'd wouldn't say ones better than the other but noticeably different.

Schott is one of the companies that makes raw glass, but there are several more, like Ohara, Kyocera, etc. On top of that most of these have factories in different places.

Weaver's Japanese and non-Japanese products had nothing in common except for the name. Same for Nikon.

There are four significant riflescope OEMs in Japan that I can think of: LOW, Kenko, JOL and Tokyo Scope. They all have different grade levels and all are capable of making pretty nice stuff.

In the Phillipines, I can only think of Kenko and Asia Optical. Every Phillipine-made riflescope comes from these two. There may be others, but I am no aware of them.

ILya

 

[beetroot]

Pick a turret and reticle

And pick a company

Its vortex across the board for me on all 3 of those categories but your needs may differ

This is the correct answer.
Whilst there are liked differences between them regarding glass and optical performance, turrets and reticle should be the deciding factor in your decision.

Chances are you will not notice subtle differences in glass quality in daily use but the reticle and turrets will most definitely be something you notice.

If you are looking at the LOW designs assume glass and reliability is basically the same and decide in this order:
Reticle
Turrets
Company you want to deal with.