Night Vision LWTS-LR sighting !!!

[wigwamitus]

https://www.botach.com/l3-insight-eotech-lwts-lr-light-weapon-thermal-sight-long-range/

I will call these guys and see if they can really get these

A mere $20k !!!

 

[Night Assassin]

 

[wigwamitus]

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok, I called BOTACH and a lady answered the phone. She said, If I could put the LWTS-LR in the cart, I could purchase it.

I did so.

But then I asked if she could confirm that they could actually get them and a ball park on the lead time. She took my name and number ad said the person who could confirm was at SHOT, but she would give them my name and number.

So still waiting on confirmation.

 

[SkyScrapin]

@wigwamitus ill help you out with the purchase by taking the UTCx off your hands

 

[wigwamitus]

I will also ask "the confirmer" what the useable day scope magnification is (and how they know). My guess is the LWTS-LR is about double the LWTS ... that is 8x-12x ... but that is just a guess ... best case it is closer to the UTCx .. 16x-20x. But I think only a person who has taken one out and looked thru it could answer.

So I'm not willing to trade the UTC-x for the LWTS-LR just yet !!


But I'm sure the LWTS-LR is a fine member of the line up of long distance thermal clipons ... I'm just trying to validate actual availability.

 

[Night Assassin]

From the picture you posted it looks like a 8 power ACOG they have it in front of. I bet you are really close on your magnification assumption !
And I'm sure the RAPTAR that is in your future won't connect to the - LR

 

[KZP]

I would be cautious of dealing with Botach. They have a reputation for saying they can deliver but don't. E.G. making a shipping label but not actually having it in stock, thus you wait for months until finally trying to cancel the order and get a refund.

 

[wigwamitus]

thx @KZP ... I am familiar with the concept! Hence trying to drill in further ...

My purpose is to validate availability. I'm happy with my UTC-x for now. But I get numerous queries from others about long distance thermal clipons, hence trying to gather data on same.

I'm skeptical on availability of ALL new widgets, especially rare birds such as these. I wouldn't be surprised if regular people can't buy them for YEARS to come.

 

[cake5150]

Big, beautiful lens Sometimes I miss my LWTS, but NV just makes a lot more sense for what I do at night. My original had a crazy long detection range, can't even imagine what this can do.

 

[tkp401119]

I take it there was no announcement of Trijicon selling UTC-xii’s?

 

[wigwamitus]

ballistics1 did a "drive by" of trijicon ... and what he got was
- SKEET was the only thing they mentioned ... 2 mos out
- nothing new on horizon
- couldn't answer questions about oasys line restart
==
I'll post about trijicon in a separate thread (this is the LWTS-LR thread) once we get more complete data

 

[Squibbler]

@wigwamitus ill help you out with the purchase by taking the UTCx off your hands

Ha, ...I was thinking the same thing.

 

[wigwamitus]

Dialoged some with a dealer (not BOTACH) enroute to shot who has had some LWTS-LR on order and expects to get them in hand about mid-year. We agreed to get on the phone. If true this exceeds expectations and looks like the LWTS-LR right now is the top candidate for those wanting a new long distance thermal clipon. We need to learn more about what they can really do in the field ... and what the street prices and availability will be. But this better than what I feared ... something like "LWTS-LR ? Sure, check back in a couple a years"

So, we had three possibilities on the radar:
1 - Trijicon restarting manufacturing of UTC-xii (so far word from SHOT is decidely negatif on this front)
2 - N-Vision Optics making a TC-50-ish clipon with a BAE core (word from SHOT negatif here as well)
3 - LWTS-LR - word is leaning positive ...

One out of 3 ain't bad !!

 

[foxkilr89]

Unless something has changed in the last 30 days they don't have them. I talked to the same lady and she redirected me to some guy there at botach who was suppose to know everything about the optic. He didn't. I was told they had them listed but did not have any confirmation from L3 that they were even available yet. He didn't know what usable mag it had or how it compared to the lwts.

 

[wigwamitus]

Pic of LWTS-LR from SHOT ... from downrangethermal (who I call "DRT" )

 

[wigwamitus]

Sounds like 8x to 10x on the day scope is clear ... 12x is starting to pixelate (per DRT).

 

[wigwamitus]

I think this is the new contender in the long distance thermal clipon space ... but as you might expect, they are not free. Though per the pricing I've seen (not allowed to share) they are not as unreasonable as you might think. I'll let DRT handle the pricing discussions

 

[wigwamitus]

As to availability, I'm hearing "180 days ARO" (after receipt of order) ... though also "that may be optimistic" ... so availability not confirmed.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Whelp I know what my next $20K of disposable income is going towards.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I'm going to assume the fov on the lr will be reduced from the standard lwts?

 

[wigwamitus]

The LWTS-LR are 1x optics just like the LWTS ... the reduction in FOV comes from your day scope, since you can now zoom in to 8x-10x ... versus the LWTS limit of 4x-6x

 

[newguy2k3v2]

The LWTS-LR are 1x optics just like the LWTS ... the reduction in FOV comes from your day scope, since you can now zoom in to 8x-10x ... versus the LWTS limit of 4x-6x

Yes 1x but it still has the same sensor right? To get a useable image at higher mag that big lens on front has to provide some magnification for the sensor and then demagnify on the backside. Same principle as comparing a cnvd-lr to cnvd-lr or pvs24 to pvs30. Same or similar guts but different lens in each end.

 

[wigwamitus]

According to the people I talked to, the demagnification is not optical, but done with the display. I am still a bit skeptical, and agree with you as to how it is generally done.

 

[wigwamitus]

I will ask specifically what the FOV is.

 

[wigwamitus]

question is asked

 

[wigwamitus]

Well I found the LWTS FOV which is 14.8 horizontal

http://www.eotechinc.com/thermal-vision-devices/lwts-light-weapon-thermal-sight

I am hearing from people at shot that the LWTS-LR is either 7 or 3.5 ... 7 sounds about right. If your day scope can see the full screen on the back. Of course FOV would decrease from there as you zoom in your day scope.

Trying to get confirmation.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

With the lwts and a 1-6 razor behind it about 2x gives me the full fov of the sensor. Trying to go lower accomplishes nothing. Sounds like with the lr about 4x is where the minimum useful day scope mag will be then.

 

[wigwamitus]

As comparison, UTC-x with mk6 3-18x horizontal FOV 6.1 and 3x can barely see the left/right edge but can see plenty of top/bottom edge. Top/bottom edge (of display) disappears on 4x. The verticle FOV is 4.7

 

[DownRangeThermal]

The lwts-lr is 2x optical 7.4 fov. Digitally zooms 4 times optical to 4x and 8x. CO mode is .5x optical (2) so takes it to unity by shrinking viewed display to half of the original display size. Fov remains 7.4 in CO mode. 4-5 x on day optic gets you corner to corner in clip on mode.....8x in your DO should be very usable. In stand alone mode the image processing, fine focus, and high grade germanium allows the image to be cleaned up beautifully in full zoom (8x digital 1.85 fov 160x120)

2500m rec after detect range. 50 cal rated. 75mm lens. 10 hr run time.
Looking forward to these finally arriving.

 

[Raven81]

DRT...what’s the price on pre-orders?

 

[SkyScrapin]

DRT...what’s the price on pre-orders?

Ya - and who do I give my money to. LOL

 

[wigwamitus]

Hook up with DRT in PM and then Phone ...

 

[texasleftychef]

So the UTCx can handle 16-18x and these 10-12? All the numbers are overwhelming.

 

[wigwamitus]

Effective magnification can depend on a number of factors ... including the thermal conditions and perhaps most importantly, the shooters "anti-fuzzy" factor. I've squeezed the SNIPE up to 8x ... and though it was fuzzy, I was able to hit 12 inch heated steel with it at 500yds.
I've squeezed the SIMRAD kn253 up to 18x and shot dots at 100yds with it ... though it is not "clear" much above 12x ...
I don't have a problem taking the UTCx up to 20x ... so I would say 16x to 20x for the UTC ... it gets pretty fuzzy after that ... the most I've cranked it to is 25x ... I'd say it is clearer than the PVS-30 above 12x ...
Some people report 6x with the LWTS, others say not a hair over 5x ...
I use the mk3 60mm on 2x and 4x all the time and find them very useful ... many report 4x is not useful ... I report that it is very useful.

So probably the biggest variable is the human observer

 

[texasleftychef]

Thanks Wig. So the 6x you are referring to is for the LWTS-LR or just the no LR model? Also heard on the fuzz factor. We’ve spoken a couple of time about it and I’m slightly more adverse to fuzz than you from what I can tell. But still able to tolerate it.

 

[wigwamitus]

The 6x was referring to the "no LR model" ...

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Id say that 8-10 x will be very doable with the lwts LR. Thats a lot of mag with pixels and you are really getting narrow on the fov at 10x. Id say about 2-3 degrees at that point. I signed back up as a sponsor/comm seller on here. I have several LRs arriving summer time frame. DM me.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

here is the sell sheet with specs...fyi these have actually been out in the field with DOD end users for a while and was in the 2016 LE catalog. Just recently did it become available to order through eotech (non mil) channels. Unfortunately it's a 6 month quoted lead time.

 

[wigwamitus]

@DownRangeThermal is the "downpayment" 100% ???

 

[DownRangeThermal]

No I tried to stop taking $ for pre orders for products long ago ...always leads to issues. Edit to add........I will not take money from anyone. If people are interested they can dm me and I will add them to a list. This was meant more to be an informative thread and L3 is notoriously incorrect on their lead times. 6 months is a long time from now. If anyone expresses interest I will definitely reach out when I get a hard ship date this summer.

 

[wigwamitus]

Good answer ... thanks !!!

 

[MOUNTIC]

@DownRangeThermal is the "downpayment" 100% ???

No... That's only for a company called "Q" ?

 

[Hobbes442]

good info

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Fyi MAP on these units....$15,699 so the 20k that those guys above were trying to charge was, in my opinion, a little questionable. ?

 

[deersniper]

Tag

 

[pmclaine]

Ok, I called BOTACH and a lady answered the phone. She said, If I could put the LWTS-LR in the cart, I could purchase it.

I did so.

But then I asked if she could confirm that they could actually get them and a ball park on the lead time. She took my name and number ad said the person who could confirm was at SHOT, but she would give them my name and number.

So still waiting on confirmation.

Only one in the cart?

@TheGerman might caution you to be poor somewhere else.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I wonder could a standard lwts be upgraded? Lens and firmware?

 

[TheGerman]

Only one in the cart?

@TheGerman might caution you to be poor somewhere else.

It's a gamble. These could be 20k forever and be unobtainable, or someone comes out with something better at 1/3 the cost, or you have a blowout on them like the PVS30.

Nightvision has slowed down a bunch to where its really affordable for even milspec+ quality. Thermal isn't there yet but I don't see how it wouldn't do the same thing eventually.

 

[pmclaine]

It's a gamble. These could be 20k forever and be unobtainable, or someone comes out with something better at 1/3 the cost, or you have a blowout on them like the PVS30.

Nightvision has slowed down a bunch to where its really affordable for even milspec+ quality. Thermal isn't there yet but I don't see how it wouldn't do the same thing eventually.

These are interesting times we live in......I hope the powers that be take that into account........or maybe not.