M-40a1/ M-70 with AN/PVS1

[MTFalconer]

So I feel like there needs to be a saga of discussions with my dad. As some of you know he was an active duty SF Sniper in Vietnam and once again we were discussing some thing. One of the things we discussed this evening was the use of the An/PVS night vision setups and I must have caught a good memory there because he immediately started going on about it on the XM-21. Said it was the best thing that ever happened to night ops and ambush sets. Combined with the scionics suppressor he said it made the jungle a very dangerous place for Charlie. He went on and on about a short barrel winchester 70 he thinks it was 16-17" and fitted with both the An/PVS and suppressor. Most of those he had seen were fitted to the semi autos for one reason or the other but there was this one we are describing. They called this rifle "shoosh".... It was the only one like this they had seen. His description is that it was heavy as all hell and required a rest for most every shooting position but accurate to a fault. As with most the details get fuzzy as you can imagine I was very interested. Mostly I was interested in the mount used for that starlight optic on the M-70. He had no idea. So now we get to the meat of this topic. Do any of you guys know of pictures existing of such a rifle? I am not sure that I have ever seen one. This gives me a LOT of ideas on the direction of my current m-70 build and I think a replica of "shoosh" would be a cool thing to have in the safe.

I would especially be interested in direction for AN/PVS mounts for a bolt action. According to dad he could swap out the starlight for the weaver daylight scope. This I gotta figure out.

 

[sandwarrior]

The only thing I could think of that was that quiet back in the day was something like the DeLisle carbine. An Enfield chambered in .45 auto. Anything fast is gonna leave a big "snap" in the air.

This kinda goes back to the thread of a week or so ago about "other" sniper rifles in Viet Nam.

Some of you may laugh at this one, but I recently got hold of a .25-20. And, at it's original speeds is DAMN quiet!. Maybe somebody saw something in the old small blackpowder cases that might have worked? .32-20, .25-20, .25-30, .30 rem, .30-30? With a suppressor, those could be ultra quiet. Especially if loaded down to the teens. There'd be very little muzzle blast.

As a kind of aside, if you ever read "Charlie Rangers", they talk about using High Standard HD's with suppressors on them towards the end of the book. It was a real hit/miss thing with those using it, as, on one hand, with a slight miss you were face to face with "Mistah chahlie" and you were vastly undergunned. But, the perfect hit(s) meant that you go killing through his patrol killing at will before any of them realized you were doing that. They used standard velocity ammo which is 1050 with a 40 gr. bullet. and man are those things quiet. I'm certain somebody cooked up something that was quiet to begin with and with suppression was incredible.

 

[MTFalconer]

As a kind of aside, if you ever read "Charlie Rangers", they talk about using High Standard HD's with suppressors on them towards the end of the book. It was a real hit/miss thing with those using it, as, on one hand, with a slight miss you were face to face with "Mistah chahlie" and you were vastly undergunned. But, the perfect hit(s) meant that you go killing through his patrol killing at will before any of them realized you were doing that. They used standard velocity ammo which is 1050 with a 40 gr. bullet. and man are those things quiet. I'm certain somebody cooked up something that was quiet to begin with and with suppression was incredible.

I'm going to hurt your feelings again but I own an original "Hushpuppy" HS HDmilitary. It's in pieces and not all the parts are there but all the "right" parts are. It was demilled returned with my dad. I bought a standard bull barrel to put in it but it will eventually be returned to original.

 

[sandwarrior]

I'm going to hurt your feelings again but I own an original "Hushpuppy" HS HDmilitary. It's in pieces and not all the parts are there but all the "right" parts are. It was demilled returned with my dad. I bought a standard bull barrel to put in it but it will eventually be returned to original.

You're not hurting my feelings...you just became my new best friend!

Seriously, that is COOL! I'm assuming it's the pencil barrel with the integral suppressor? All you need are a stack of cloth donuts to fill the suppressor...ha ha, if you can get it open and put back together. Yeah, one amazing piece of history!

The two HD's that I owned both had long barrels, one was WWII vintage, a 221XXX ser. no. and the other was a 222XXX vintage. I've seen one website say 1946 another say 1947-1948. No suppressors on mine though.

It would be so cool one day to see the "what they tried" back in the day. All of the test programs that didn't end up in inventory somewhere.

ADDED:
I had to think here for a minute. I know we had an original "starlight" scope in the arms room (actually commo cage was where it got issued from) and a AN/PVS-2.

Was the original "starlight" (as we always called it) an AN/PVS-1?

 

[buffalowinter]

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/Msq1Rltm.jpg"}[/IMG2]
MTF...the weapon your dad might be talking about appears on page 76 of the book "Quiet Killers" by J. David Truby. On page 76 there is a picture of a suppressed model 70 that was sent to Vietnam for testing. I couldn't find a picture on the internet, but the photo is captioned as follows:

"A mighty sniping weapon (above), this Winchester Model 70 in .458 caliber was fitted with an APG silencer, and shipped to Vietnam for testing. Results from the field remain classified."

The weapon is huge, with about a 5" diameter shroud type suppressor the entire length of the barrel from rifle stock for-end to muzzle. It has an ART II scope.

MAC (Military Armaments Corporation) provided many one-off special mission weapons to SF. Page 47 of "Quiet Killers" shows a photo of a bolt rifle I can't positively identify, with a Sionics suppressor, being tested by a 5th Gp soldier.

 

[cav has been]

The suppressed weapon i remember the "Sneaky Pete" types fielding the most was the Swedish K. Seemed to be a fair number of them around. A suppressed Hi-Standard would have been handy as pockets on a shirt. That would have been an outstanding rat killer.

 

[MTFalconer]

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/Msq1Rltm.jpg"}[/IMG2]
MTF...the weapon your dad might be talking about appears on page 76 of the book "Quiet Killers" by J. David Truby. On page 70 there is a picture of a suppressed model 70 that was sent to Vietnam for testing. I couldn't find a picture on the internet, but the photo is captioned as follows:

A mighty sniping weapon (above), this Winchester Model 70 in .458 caliber was fitted with an APG silencer, and shipped to Vietnam for testing. Result from the field remain classified.

The weapon is huge, with about a 5" diameter shroud type suppressor the entire length of the barrel from rifle stock for-end to muzzle. It has an ART II scope.

MAC (Military Armaments Corporation) provided many one-off special mission weapons to SF. Page 47 of "Quiet Killers" shows a photo of a bolt rifle I can't positively identify, with a Sionics suppressor, being tested by a 5th Gp soldier.

Rick, I guess I need to buy the book. My father was 5th Gp during most of the conflict.

 

[MTFalconer]

ADDED:
I had to think here for a minute. I know we had an original "starlight" scope in the arms room (actually commo cage was where it got issued from) and a AN/PVS-2.

Was the original "starlight" (as we always called it) an AN/PVS-1?

The Vietnam era star lights, as they were called were An/PVS1's or just PVS-1. The PVS-2 didn't come out until the 70's if memory serves.

 

[sandwarrior]

The Vietnam era star lights, as they were called were An/PVS1's or just PVS-1. The PVS-2 didn't come out until the 70's if memory serves.

We had those from the time I got there in '81. We later aquired, IICRC, up to a AN/PVS-5. Which was a lot more compact. Also, the later models lasted a lot longer. Seems like our Starlight only had about 30 minutes of usable time. Of course the binary NOD's had a parallel numbering system so easy to confuse the nomenclature.

 

[buffalowinter]

MTF, buy "Quiet Killers" here for $7.00 delivered https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...0767685&sr=8-2

 

[MTFalconer]

MTF, buy "Quiet Killers" here for $7.00 delivered https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...0767685&sr=8-2

Roger that, Done. My library for books like this is small, leaning more towards an extensive falconry book collection.

 

[MTFalconer]

Now I need to find a PVS-1....nearly impossible I know, might have to settle for the more readily available PVS-2.

 

[sandwarrior]

MTF, buy "Quiet Killers" here for $7.00 delivered https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...0767685&sr=8-2

Will be delivered on Wednesday, a week from today. Thanks Buffalo!

 

[sandwarrior]

I thought the starlight deserved a pic in this thread:

 

[sandwarrior]

You're not hurting my feelings...you just became my new best friend!

Seriously, that is COOL! I'm assuming it's the pencil barrel with the integral suppressor? All you need are a stack of cloth donuts to fill the suppressor...ha ha, if you can get it open and put back together. Yeah, one amazing piece of history!

The two HD's that I owned both had long barrels, one was WWII vintage, a 221XXX ser. no. and the other was a 222XXX vintage. I've seen one website say 1946 another say 1947-1948. No suppressors on mine though.

It would be so cool one day to see the "what they tried" back in the day. All of the test programs that didn't end up in inventory somewhere.

ADDED:
I had to think here for a minute. I know we had an original "starlight" scope in the arms room (actually commo cage was where it got issued from) and a AN/PVS-2.

Was the original "starlight" (as we always called it) an AN/PVS-1?

I had a mental block there going on. I knew I had heard "hush puppy" before, but was still thinking High standard. So, for those of you with the brains in gear, enjoy a pic of a real "hush puppy":

 

[MTFalconer]

I thought the starlight deserved a pic in this thread:

that is one decked out M-16! Starlight, early 203 variant....dayum, bet that thing weighed a ton to carry around.

 

[MTFalconer]

"Hush puppy" was apparently a generic term given to most anything with a suppressor. Mostly the handguns in use at that time.

 

[sandwarrior]

"Hush puppy" was apparently a generic term given to most anything with a suppressor. Mostly the handguns in use at that time.

It probably was. But, the Seal High Power is where I had actually heard the term. I just had High Standard on the brain so bad, I couldn't think of this.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

The AN/PVS 1 was the same IR set up that was used on the M3 carbine. There were a few but not that many, the AN/PVS 2 was much better an much smaller as well. The clarity sucked in the 1 an was not much better in the 2, the 3 was light years beyond both. Tanks an PC's had the same IR capability, an you could drive off a cliff an not know it until it was to late as there was no depth perception at all. M3's/AN/PVS 1's were just a shade better than nothing, but not by much.
The High Standards w/cans were inventoried in every SF unit, but the snake bite teams had most of them.

 

[Random Guy]

"Mostly I was interested in the mount used for that starlight optic on the M-70. He had no idea. So now we get to the meat of this topic. Do any of you guys know of pictures existing of such a rifle? I am not sure that I have ever seen one. This gives me a LOT of ideas on the direction of my current m-70 build and I think a replica of "shoosh" would be a cool thing to have in the safe.

I would especially be interested in direction for AN/PVS mounts for a bolt action. According to dad he could swap out the starlight for the weaver daylight scope. This I gotta figure out.."

The best two books on Vietnam era sniper rifles are Peter Senichs' "The One-Round War" and "The Long-Range War". The USAMTU made a prototype mount for the Model 70 that allowed the M14's side mount for the Starlight system to be mounted. This appears to be the only such mount made for the Model 70 during the Vietnam War. The Sonics company also made a few suppressor equipped M40 rifles for the USMC, hoping they would adopt this system (see attached).

 

[MTFalconer]

I'll make some calls to friends at the AMU, bet they can dig up specs on that thing...

 

[pmclaine]

I had a mental block there going on. I knew I had heard "hush puppy" before, but was still thinking High standard. So, for those of you with the brains in gear, enjoy a pic of a real "hush puppy":

Yes that's a Smth and Wesson M39.

There is a member on the Smith and Wesson Forum building a replica.

Im hoping to pick up and M39 soon. I have a 52-2 and a 952-1, an M39 would complete that little trilogy in my mind.

 

[J!m]

Hey Phil, how is MA with regards to suppressors? CT sucks...

 

[sandwarrior]

Yes that's a Smth and Wesson M39.

There is a member on the Smith and Wesson Forum building a replica.

Im hoping to pick up and M39 soon. I have a 52-2 and a 952-1, an M39 would complete that little trilogy in my mind.

I need to make a popping noise...the one I remember it being referred to was a Browning HP

Anyhow, good catch! Here's a link to them:
http://www.guns.com/2013/02/04/mk-22-hush-puppy-pistol/

 

[pmclaine]

Hey Phil, how is MA with regards to suppressors? CT sucks...

It sucks.

 

[Vintage Restorer]

The PVS-1 and the PVS-2 are almost identical in size and weight. The main differences were that the
PVS-1 had internal axis/azimuth adjustments on the crosshairs. The PVS-2 had adjustments that
required that the whole scope had to be moved up down left right . Both were mounted to the left of the centerline of the rifle. An awkward arrangement for most troops. Both are still excellent night vision with the penalty of a lot of weight. They used a cascade tube arrangement that fed 3 Gen I tubes off one another to produce exceptional gain(brightness) and definition(lpi). The PVS-2 still sells well today.

 

[earthquake]

Saw this at the Rock Island Arsenal museum. Not sure if it adds to anything here, but it was cool, none the less!

 

[Downtown]

The difficult part of cloning a S&W M39 might be the slide lock that weapon was fitted with. Was it just a lever that flipped up somewhat like a 1911 safety? I do remember reading that it certainly affected the weapon's service life.

 

[Downtown]

Never mind, I looked closer at the picture.

 

[ArmedGinger]

Found this picture. Not sure the providence

of it though

 

[pmclaine]

Never mind, I looked closer at the picture.

I think the key feature of the slide lock was that it locked the slide when firing so that it could not cycle and release firing noise as well add action noise.

 

[Downtown]

Certainly. I've also heard it was quite hard on the weapon. Not sure what the issues were, perhaps frame or slide cracks. The Model 39 was one of the handful of pistols I traded away in my youth and I regret it. I learned to just keep them all?.

 

[pmclaine]

I ended up picking up a 39.

It feels so good in hand, perfect ergonomics.

It's a triplet to my 952 and 52.

The fact it's double single messes me up.

Fun gun though.

 

[Jerry m]

In an earlier version of 'Cartridges of the World' by Frank Barnes he indicated that a shorted (like 1.5 inches long) .458 WM was developed and sent to VN for evaluation as a Suppressed rifle, using a heavy FMJ bullet.

I understand the term 'Hush Puppy' came from the need of shooting dogs in the area before they would bark and blow the surprise of the attack/operation.

 

[cplnorton]

I would think any builds like that with the model 70 would be unofficial or one off's.

I found several thousand pages of classified sniper docs from Vietnam at the Archives. Both for the Army and USMC.

Everything in the classified Army documents on fitting night vision and the Suppressor by Sonics were on the XM21.

For the USMC, it details all testing was on the M40.

Really after 1967 I never see any mentions of the Model 70 with either the Army or Marines in any of the official documents.

 

[bpd459]

that is one decked out M-16! Starlight, early 203 variant....dayum, bet that thing weighed a ton to carry around.

The grenade launcher is an XM-148

 

[sandwarrior]

The grenade launcher is an XM-148

That's the really cool thing about here, somebody's seen it somewhere before.

 

[D_TROS]

NOT SORRY to bump cool old thread

Found this picture. Not sure the providenceView attachment 7258799 of it though

any idea on providence or caliber?

cool seeing the MRT 11-52? dated cheek piece.


Regards
DT

 

[Random Guy]

any idea on providence or caliber?

Peter Senich's book has a picture of one (attached). The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping. His book notes that 5 of these rifles were built by the US Army Limited Warfare Laboratory (USALWL) and tested in 1971 in Vietnam. The ammo was specially designed, a shortened 458 case that prevented use of the full size cartridge "for safety reasons.". It was designed to be subsonic. Two of the five rifles were tested in the field/combat in the spring, and it was determined that the XM21 was a superior sniper rifle in all regards, except noise suppression. That's about all I have ever seen re that bizarre rifle.

 

[SQ54]

Forgotten rifle of the Vietnam War: The silent sniper

The thick and lush jungles of Vietnam and the enemies it contained was the first time modern American forces engaged in asymmetric warfare. The enemy was

sofrep.com

 

[sandwarrior]

Peter Senich's book as a picture of one (attached). The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping. His book notes that 5 of these rifles were built by the US Army Limited Warfare Laboratory (USALWL) and tested in 1971 in Vietnam. The ammo was specially designed, a shortened 458 case that prevented use of the full size cartridge "for safety reasons.". It was designed to be subsonic. Two of the five rifles were tested in the field/combat in the spring, and it was determined that the XM21 was a superior sniper rifle in all regards, except noise suppression. That's about all I have ever seen re that bizarre rifle.

A true story. One of the things that absolutely pisses me off is while testing new and groundbreaking equipment, it gets canned because of some REMF who doesn't understand the needs of why the new equipment is being tested. The XM-21 was tested in a standard battelfield environement, where, YEAH, it's gonna win. But, the point is the 'new' equipment beat it in the one category that was really needed. Taking out a sentry at 200m is quite doable with either rifle. But, the XM-21 is gonna fail because it has supersonic ammo and that will negate taking out a sentry and not raising alarm. The subsonic .458 can reach out to 500m and still kill. But it's going to take a lot of trajectory. So, the testers say it can't be done... It can, it just needs sight modifications.

The other part that pisses me off is the people who can it because they don't understand (worse: do understand and don't like it) are the ones writing the after-action reports that are as false as me being 6 1/2' tall aaaaannnnd good looking. Not true. But, they publish those reports like they are real and big Army stumbles over it's own ass again.

 

[Random Guy]

I stand corrected, as I knew I had seen more about that rifle, and sure enough, Peter Senich's excellent book, The Long-Range War (1996) has a bit more info (see attached pics). I think the rifle was 14.5 lbs and 45 inches long, so that's a bit of a drawback, and according to one old-timer, the suppressor technology of the 1960s-1970s-80s was immature and accuracy suffered quite a bit until new designs came out in the 1990s. He said they were really only good for "close-in work" - but he didn't specify what range limitations were.

But, the XM-21 is gonna fail because it has supersonic ammo and that will negate taking out a sentry and not raising alarm. The subsonic .458 can reach out to 500m and still kill.

Two things, per Peter Senich's book, a good amount of subsonic ammo in 5.56 and 7.62 was used in Vietnam by "US Army Rangers, Special Forces, SEALS, Recons, and LRPs." The regular Army and Marines didn't really use it, but it was indeed used by certain soldiers/units. The problem was cycling in the M14 and M16 was an issue (see last 2 attachments of ammo made by Sonics Inc and provided with their suppressors in Vietnam). The innovative 'pressure relief valve' on the Sonics M14 suppressor was supposed to allow for variances in ammo type (and allow full-auto fire too, if needed), but even then I suspect manual cycling was often required with the 7.62 subsonic ammo used in Vietnam. A lot of experimentation occurred, included some suppressed M40s as well (but not used by the USMC). My understanding is that large POI shifts and a drop in accuracy were persistent challanges.

As for the Vietnam era experimental 458 subsonic round (low velocity with a 500 grain bullet), my guess is it had to be aimed like an artillery piece once you went past 100 meters - if that. I'm sure its ballistic trajectory profile was rather poor, and as the old timer noted re suppressors of that era, probably only good for "close-in work". Accuracy or range data is not found in Senich's book re the .458, but apparently the suppressed XM21 was more accurate.

If I understand the history correctly, it wasn't until Knights Armament and Crane partnered up in the mid-1990s to test and develop sound suppressors that were really suitable for a semi-auto sniper rifle by allowing 1 MOA precision - even with a suppressor. (The result was the sound suppressor on the Mk 11 Mod 0 rifle, which took several years to develop, and was later used on SOCOM's 300 WinMag bolt action sniper rifles). During this same era of the mid-1990s, I think Phil Seberger and Ron Allen developed various Ops Inc sound suppressors that also worked well for accurized 5.56mm M16s, and were adopted around the year 2000 by Crane for the SOCOM SPR Mk 12 rifles, etc. Prior to the advancements in the 1990s, huge POI shifts were common and precision accuracy more or less went out the window....

So, there weren't any accurate 500 meter capable suppressed sniper rifles in the 1960-70s (and probably 1980s too). Sound suppressors have come a long way in the 21st century, but back in the 20th century they didn't work esp well for a sniper rifle, the XM21 being perhaps the best compromise, but it still doesn't compare to today's technology, at least that is what a retired 1st SFG SOTIC instructor implied when we corresponded over this topic.

 

[sandwarrior]

I stand corrected, as I knew I had seen more about that rifle, and sure enough, Peter Senich's excellent book, The Long-Range War (1996) has a bit more info (see attached pics). I think the rifle was 14.5 lbs and 45 inches long, so that's a bit of a drawback, and according to one old-timer, the suppressor technology of the 1960s-1970s-80s was immature and accuracy suffered quite a bit until new designs came out in the 1990s. He said they were really only good for "close-in work" - but he didn't specify what range limitations were.


Two things, per Peter Senich's book, a good amount of subsonic ammo in 5.56 and 7.62 was used in Vietnam by "US Army Rangers, Special Forces, SEALS, Recons, and LRPs." The regular Army and Marines didn't really use it, but it was indeed used by certain soldiers/units. The problem was cycling in the M14 and M16 was an issue (see last 2 attachments of ammo made by Sonics Inc and provided with their suppressors in Vietnam). The innovative 'pressure relief valve' on the Sonics M14 suppressor was supposed to allow for variances in ammo type (and allow full-auto fire too, if needed), but even then I suspect manual cycling was often required with the 7.62 subsonic ammo used in Vietnam. A lot of experimentation occurred, included some suppressed M40s as well (but not used by the USMC). My understanding is that large POI shifts and a drop in accuracy were persistent challanges.

As for the Vietnam era experimental 458 subsonic round (low velocity with a 500 grain bullet), my guess is it had to be aimed like an artillery piece once you went past 100 meters - if that. I'm sure its ballistic trajectory profile was rather poor, and as the old timer noted re suppressors of that era, probably only good for "close-in work". Accuracy or range data is not found in Senich's book re the .458, but apparently the suppressed XM21 was more accurate.

If I understand the history correctly, it wasn't until Knights Armament and Crane partnered up in the mid-1990s to test and develop sound suppressors that were really suitable for a semi-auto sniper rifle by allowing 1 MOA precision - even with a suppressor. (The result was the sound suppressor on the Mk 11 Mod 0 rifle, which took several years to develop, and was later used on SOCOM's 300 WinMag bolt action sniper rifles). During this same era of the mid-1990s, I think Phil Seberger and Ron Allen developed various Ops Inc sound suppressors that also worked well for accurized 5.56mm M16s, and were adopted around the year 2000 by Crane for the SOCOM SPR Mk 12 rifles, etc. Prior to the advancements in the 1990s, huge POI shifts were common and precision accuracy more or less went out the window....

So, there weren't any accurate 500 meter capable suppressed sniper rifles in the 1960-70s (and probably 1980s too). Sound suppressors have come a long way in the 21st century, but back in the 20th century they didn't work esp well for a sniper rifle, the XM21 being perhaps the best compromise, but it still doesn't compare to today's technology, at least that is what a retired 1st SFG SOTIC instructor implied when we corresponded over this topic.

I do not know of Rangers using subsonic 5.56 in Vietnam. The 1-12" twist M16A1's and XM-177's (We called CAR-15's) would not stabilize a heavy bullet. The light charge to send a light bullet down the barrel that slow would not cycle the action. Worse, it would typically cycle the action part ways, possibly jamming the rifle.

I know for a fact they DID use suppressed High Standard Military HD's. Ours had the heavy barrel with threads for attaching a suppressor, not the integral suppressor that slid over the pencil barrel like the OSS used in WWII. They used standard velocity ammo with a muzzle velocity of 1050 fps. This caused a lot of confusion to me at the time as I grew up shooting high velocity .22LR and thought that was 'standard velocity'. The boxes weren't marked with velocity, but they were marked Standard Velocity. It wasn't until the last .22LR shortage I finally had the "A-HA! moment" that standard and high velocity were 250 fps apart. And standard was subsonic.

Now, MAC-SOGV was a different story. There was an armory/weapons group within the organization that tested all sorts of stuff. Kinda like "Q" branch in Bond movies. They pretty much tested everything under the sun for sniper weapons. From .22LR and .22 Hornet up to the .458 you saw above. Contrary to popular belief, shooting distance with that .458 beast isn't as hard as one would think. The scope slid into place on a rail. That was removed relatively easily off the rail and a set of vernier sights slid into place on the rail with a matching base. The bullet weight and speed match that of old black powder rifles. Not to worry though, we used vernier sights on M79's and M203's. So, it isn't like nobody ever saw them. They were also common on the 1903/1903A1's which were still hanging around and shooting the Farr Cup every year. The sight doesn't even go that high shooting M1906 ammo.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I had a chance to buy an early starlight scope a couple of years ago. Seller wanted a grand for it in the LGS... but it was so primitive I could not justify it.

But if anyone wants to build a VN era rifle around one... https://www.gunbroker.com/item/910387999

Not a bad price if it's working. And they are pretty rebuildable.

SW39's are one of the best 9mm's ever made. Ergonomic, reliable, built like a brick outhouse. They were known better as 'Hush Duck's' because it wasn't the dogs making the noise in villages. But 'Hush Duck' did not sound like something a Seal or a Green Beret should be carrying...

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I know for a fact they DID use suppressed High Standard Military HD's. Ours had the heavy barrel with threads for attaching a suppressor, not the integral suppressor that slid over the pencil barrel like the OSS used in WWII. They used standard velocity ammo with a muzzle velocity of 1050 fps. This caused a lot of confusion to me at the time as I grew up shooting high velocity .22LR and thought that was 'standard velocity'. The boxes weren't marked with velocity, but they were marked Standard Velocity. It wasn't until the last .22LR shortage I finally had the "A-HA! moment" that standard and high velocity were 250 fps apart. And standard was subsonic.

Those High Standard's were often leftovers from WW2 when a ton of them were made for the OSS and resistance groups. HD Military's with a hammer. They were wicked good little guns and quiet. They are still in many, many unit inventories in the US. They probably will be for another 100 years!

Then again, so are SW 76's, Suppressed STENs (now those are quiet!!), Suppressed Sterlings, Welrods and all kinds of cool toys. And what's not in inventories can sometimes be found in team rooms. You know... trophies ;-)

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

I had a chance to buy an early starlight scope a couple of years ago. Seller wanted a grand for it in the LGS... but it was so primitive I could not justify it.

But if anyone wants to build a VN era rifle around one... https://www.gunbroker.com/item/910387999

Not a bad price if it's working. And they are pretty rebuildable.

SW39's are one of the best 9mm's ever made. Ergonomic, reliable, built like a brick outhouse. They were known better as 'Hush Duck's' because it wasn't the dogs making the noise in villages. But 'Hush Duck' did not sound like something a Seal or a Green Beret should be carrying...

Sirhr

The ergonomics of the M39 were like no other in my hand.

From first feel I wanted one.

Of course before finding the one I wanted to buy I came acros a Model 52-2 than a 952-1 than finally a M39.

So basically I have the most expensive M39 in the USA bought at a cost of approximately $5000.

Not enamored of the DA/SA function of the M39 but I think the amazing SA of its earlier bought clones have spoiled me.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

The ergonomics of the M39 were like no other in my hand.

From first feel I wanted one.

Of course before finding the one I wanted to buy I came acros a Model 52-2 than a 952-1 than finally a M39.

So basically I have the most expensive M39 in the USA bought at a cost of approximately $5000.

Not enamored of the DA/SA function of the M39 but I think the amazing SA of its earlier bought clones have spoiled me.

I have one I bought cheap... Nickel finish. Shooter, but gorgeous with wood grips and a wicked nice (Galco?) leather holster.

Sirhr

 

[USMCSGT0331]

I've had a PVS-1 for a while, finally finished an M16A1 clone to go with it. The unit still functions and came with a battery insert to run something more common (I have no idea what, still need to figure that out). I keep it on display in my basement bar with the humidors, seems like a good place for it:

 

[sandwarrior]

Those High Standard's were often leftovers from WW2 when a ton of them were made for the OSS and resistance groups. HD Military's with a hammer. They were wicked good little guns and quiet. They are still in many, many unit inventories in the US. They probably will be for another 100 years!

Then again, so are SW 76's, Suppressed STENs (now those are quiet!!), Suppressed Sterlings, Welrods and all kinds of cool toys. And what's not in inventories can sometimes be found in team rooms. You know... trophies ;-)

Cheers,

Sirhr

I believe our High Standards serial #'s put them in the 1945 and 1946 range. Both post-war I was told.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I believe our High Standards serial #'s put them in the 1945 and 1946 range. Both post-war I was told.

But wartime contracts no doubt… no one expected the Atom bombs and some orders ran well into 46… when they expected things to end. Not August 45.

So, yes, postwar production. But wartime contract.

Not a bad investment considering unit cost for one was probably about $13 each when the War Dept. bought them new!

Sirhr