Sidearms & Scatterguns M&P or Glock

[leprechaun]

My department is looking at getting a new handgun in .45.It will most likely come down to S&W and Glock. We currently have Sig 220's but the quality of their products(which were in my opinion the best years ago)suck currently,hence the search for a new duty gun.

I am looking for experiences you have with them,durability,customer support from Smith and Glock and any other info we can use to go along with the testing we are doing.

Thanks

 

[SNIPERTARGET]

Re: M&P or Glock

GLOCK

 

[VTgunner]

Re: M&P or Glock

I own mostly Glocks but I do own an M&P45. I've had some problems with the mags in the M&P45. Customer service with S&W is arguably the best in the business though.

 

[Platypus]

Re: M&P or Glock

Are you dead set on .45 ACP? The reason I ask is the M&P 45 and the Glock 21 do not fit a bunch of shooters hands, even with the interchangable backstraps. This draws to the thinking carry what you are able to shoot accurately. With the advances in bullet design as it effects terminal ballistics 9mm has come a long way. All this ties into training budget as well 9mm is considerably cheaper to shoot and easier to train new and inexperienced shooters with. Personally I vote Glock as I have carried one for over 25 years now. I carried a Glock 21 then a 21SF on duty for 10 plus years now I carry a Glock 34. 52 rounds of 9mm on my belt verses 39 45 rounds. The Glock in my opinion is easier to maintain, the M&P is not near as user friendly when it comes down to breaking it all the way down. Glock service after the sale is good. M&P's do point very well and the quality of S&W has certainly improved since they are USA run again and getting back in tune with the LE and civilian shooting community. I would evaluate not just the two manufactures but caliber choice. Also look at the cost of repair parts, ease of repair, magazine cost, and the availability of different support gear like holsters with lights attachmented, magazine pouches, site options, and if this will be carried off duty as well. Just some thoughts and ultimately it comes down to what the majority can run effectively.

 

[killerwaffles]

Re: M&P or Glock

For a 45 ACP, would you be able to carry a 1911? I have an M&P that i shoot for IDPA and i love it. I have never had any issues with it and i have abused the pistol quite a bit. The Glock is much easier to disassemble and swap out parts but i dont do that on a daily basis so thats why i chose the M&P. Plus i like the higher grip tang on the M&P rather than the Glock. it gives me a better grip.

 

[opshin556]

Re: M&P or Glock

If you are stuck with .45acp then glock 21s have more options for holsters, accessories, and your armorer will love them!
As a matter of fact, as previously stated the size of the 21 grip is not great for small or even medium size hands.
The grip shift needed for dropping mags can be significant with the g21.
The glock 22 and glock 23 .40 allow the same frame size of the 9mm glocks to be used, but in .40 cal.
In the majority of shooters both civilian and LE i have trained, the glock 22 -23 are superior in handling, reloading, speed on target.
my .02

 

[crazybrit]

Re: M&P or Glock

Springfield XDM??

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crazybrit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Springfield XDM?? </div></div>
I honestly hope this guy is kidding!

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

If you want a gun that will always work and service that will make damn sure you are taken care of right away then the obvious choice is Smith and Wesson. Glock is trying to play catch up with the gen 4s after the M&P kicked their butt. Now look at how many problems the glock had coming off the shelves. GLock took care of it but it took three weeks to a month to get the parts. I have asked for spare parts from Smith and Wesson and had them within a week. I own both and have had way more issues with the Brick AKA Glock than the M&P anyday. M&P is built better bottom line.

 

[3O8Junkie]

Re: M&P or Glock

I would guess the huge number of Glocks in the market compared to S+W would probably account for the speed in parts turn around.
You can say that Glocks always work as well. What is carried more in America by police departments? Glock or S+W? I would put my money on Glock.

 

[DBrace]

Re: M&P or Glock

I have both, I also vote G21 b/c it is on my hip on/off duty.

 

[leprechaun]

Re: M&P or Glock

In answer to some of the responses

Yes we are stuck with the.45.No chance of it changing.As for the part of they are big guns in .45 I understand that but we have to get guns in .45. We also contacted HK to look at the HK 45 but no response from their rep and its been a few weeks.

I am a "one gun does NOT gun fit everyone" man HOWEVER as it is everyone (except SWAT they have 1911's) will be going to the same duty gun.They will not entertain the notion of different guns and calibers.

And no is the answer for everyone in the dept going to a 1911.

 

[Ultraman550]

Re: M&P or Glock

M&P 45. I have one and love it. Being able to change out the grip sizes really makes a big difference to me. Glocks are great guns as well but they just weren't comfortable to me. Triggers on the M&P are not great but swap it out with a DCAEK or the Forward Set Sear from Apex Tactical and you've got yourself an 11 round .45 ACP handgun with a buttery smooth trigger.

 

[EricM40]

Re: M&P or Glock

Glock 21. The gen 4 was released at shot and offers the ability to change the grip based on the size of your hands. The gen 4 also works for the older magazines. They run just about anything you put in them either dirty or clean. Very easy to field strip and clean as well. The S&W has a lot of unneeded features. The sights are nicer on the smith though.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crazybrit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Springfield XDM?? </div></div>
I honestly hope this guy is kidding! </div></div>

Great Marketing Program for a 200 pistol.

I'm a Glock Guy, but I would dump all of them for M&P's if I didn't have to spend another 175 to get the trigger where it should be from the factory, so get a G21, with your police discount its probably cheaper than a M&P.

 

[wizdumb]

Re: M&P or Glock

I sold my Glock 21 for an M&P-45 and I won't look back.

After a 500 round session with the Glock, the webbing of my hand was chewed up and bleeding from the dreaded slide bite. Five months later, I still have the scar.

The Glock 45 magazines are nearly impossible to fully load by hand without using a mag loader tool -- it starts getting difficult on the 6th round. Not true of the M&P-45 mags.

Don't get me wrong, the Glock always goes bang, the gun and parts are dead cheap, so there is plenty to like.

To me, the M&P-45 is like a Glock with features, including ambi-slide lock, included interchangeable backstrap, front slide serrations, and a better trigger (if you don't get a gritty one).

Here's a helpful read about the M&P-9:
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/01/60-days-with-m-9-aka-confessions-of.html

 

[turbo54]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wizdumb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sold my Glock 21 for an M&P-45 and I won't look back.

After a 500 round session with the Glock, the webbing of my hand was chewed up and bleeding from the dreaded slide bite. Five months later, I still have the scar.

The Glock 45 magazines are nearly impossible to fully load by hand without using a mag loader tool -- it starts getting difficult on the 6th round. Not true of the M&P-45 mags.

Don't get me wrong, the Glock always goes bang, the gun and parts are dead cheap, so there is plenty to like.

To me, the M&P-45 is like a Glock with features, including ambi-slide lock, included interchangeable backstrap, front slide serrations, and a better trigger (if you don't get a gritty one).

Here's a helpful read about the M&P-9:
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/01/60-days-with-m-9-aka-confessions-of.html </div></div>

Goes to show how differently the ergos of any given pistol work out for different folks. I've never been bit by a slide before, and I could easily have a 500 round day with my G21 or G30. Also, I don't get the "hard to load" magazine thing. I have at least 15 mags for my 21, and don't have any issue topping them off with 13 rounds with my fingers...my old XD45's Mec-gar magazines were easier to top off, but the Glock mags aren't any trouble for me.

 

[BiggerStick47]

Re: M&P or Glock

I would ask Glock and S&W to bring guns out for your dept. to demo, then poll your officers based on which they liked best. If one of them isn't willing to demo for you, that would narrow the choice down for me.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BiggerStick47</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would ask Glock and S&W to bring guns out for your dept. to demo, then poll your officers based on which they liked best. If one of them isn't willing to demo for you, that would narrow the choice down for me. </div></div>
I think this is a great idea. Good thinking.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: M&P or Glock

I like the M&P over the Glock. However, if you have to change out the trigger as some have suggested it may be a liability issue for the department. That's not something you want to have come up in court.

The standard trigger reset is not as pronounced as other triggers. This may not be important for some officers. However, for competitive shooters you want the feel of the reset so you can shoot faster.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: leprechaun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In answer to some of the responses

Yes we are stuck with the.45.No chance of it changing.As for the part of they are big guns in .45 I understand that but we have to get guns in .45. We also contacted HK to look at the HK 45 but no response from their rep and its been a few weeks.

I am a "one gun does NOT gun fit everyone" man HOWEVER as it is everyone (except SWAT they have 1911's) will be going to the same duty gun.They will not entertain the notion of different guns and calibers.

And no is the answer for everyone in the dept going to a 1911.
</div></div>

The 1911 is a pain in the ass to field department wide. Thank God you're not looking at doing that.

The M&P45 is actually one of the best guns S&W makes. They're screwing up the 9mm's, but their .45's are running pretty strong.

The Gen 4 21 is rumored to be the best Glock 21 yet. It is a much better gun in the hand than either the 21 or the 21SF. It is definitely worth a look.

The HK45 is far better than both though... you're just limited in holsters, mag pouches, sights, and price. If cost is no object, then the HK45 is the winner. It shoots softer, more accurately, and more reliably than anything else in it's class.

I would say the M&P45 is a good second place to the HK45, but the Gen 4 21 might have changed the game. I really don't know which is a more reliable gun at this point, between those two.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShooterMcGavin33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would guess the huge number of Glocks in the market compared to S+W would probably account for the speed in parts turn around.
You can say that Glocks always work as well. What is carried more in America by police departments? Glock or S+W? I would put my money on Glock.</div></div>

Glock owns about 70% or so of duty guns in the US. HK, Sig, S&W, Ruger, Springfield, etc. are all fighting over the remaining ~30%.

 

[jasonk]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They're screwing up the 9mm's, but their .45's are running pretty strong.</div></div>

Can you expand on this? What exactly is wrong with their 9mms? What about the 40?

 

[Downzero]

Re: M&P or Glock

I would not wish the Glock 21 on my worst enemy, even if I didn't already prefer the M&P.

Given the caliber demanded, the M&P is nearly the only option.

 

[Hi Speed]

Re: M&P or Glock

the g21 is based off of the g20 which is a purpose built 10mm frame and slide. Surely you don't think the .45 is in the same league as a 10MM.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: M&P or Glock

Dammit, I can't decide which one either, and this thread only agravates the situation.

Logical Solution: buy both.

But....which gets bought first.

Fuck............

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They're screwing up the 9mm's, but their .45's are running pretty strong.</div></div>

Can you expand on this? What exactly is wrong with their 9mms? What about the 40?</div></div>

Here is a starting point:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98784#Post98784

You can find a lot more supporting evidence to this problem, too.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78338

Apex is making parts to address the accuracy problems of these guns.

The .40's are better though.

 

[Glock30]

Re: M&P or Glock

Glock
I have been beating the piss piss out of my Glock 30 for around 12 years now. Countless round's, daily carry and IDPA and its still 100% factory original parts

 

[jasonk]

Re: M&P or Glock

Thanks, Jim. That M4 thread was kind of all over the place, but the 10-8 one definitely had some good info.

 

[turbo54]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The HK45 is far better than both though... you're just limited in holsters, mag pouches, sights, and price. If cost is no object, then the HK45 is the winner. It shoots softer, more accurately, and more reliably than anything else in it's class.

I would say the M&P45 is a good second place to the HK45, but the Gen 4 21 might have changed the game. I really don't know which is a more reliable gun at this point, between those two. </div></div>

Well, opinions are like assholes! The HK45 would be my last choice. It is huge, clunky, has a gritty trigger, a high bore center, and more recoil than either a Glock or M&P...

...just my asshole opinion...

 

[6.5mmman]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They're screwing up the 9mm's, but their .45's are running pretty strong.</div></div>

Can you expand on this? What exactly is wrong with their 9mms? What about the 40?</div></div>

Here is a starting point:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98784#Post98784

You can find a lot more supporting evidence to this problem, too.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78338

Apex is making parts to address the accuracy problems of these guns.

The .40's are better though.
</div></div>
DAMN. I just bought a brand new 9mm due to the advice i obtained in this thread and other research. This problem was never mentioned. People had nothing but good things to say. Now im pist.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3115442#Post3115442

Looks like it wont be replacing my G23 on my hip, if the claims are true.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6.5mmman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They're screwing up the 9mm's, but their .45's are running pretty strong.</div></div>

Can you expand on this? What exactly is wrong with their 9mms? What about the 40?</div></div>

Here is a starting point:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98784#Post98784

You can find a lot more supporting evidence to this problem, too.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78338

Apex is making parts to address the accuracy problems of these guns.

The .40's are better though.
</div></div>
DAMN. I just bought a brand new 9mm due to the advice i obtained in this thread and other research. This problem was never mentioned. People had nothing but good things to say. Now im pist.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3115442#Post3115442

Looks like it wont be replacing my G23 on my hip, if the claims are true. </div></div>
You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO</div></div>

Apex is making a new locking block for the gun for guys who don't want to go through getting a barrel fit, and fitting bar-sto barrels for guys who are willing to go that far to save the gun.

There was a time when both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers were calling the M&P a "product improved Glock". Now they both recommend to stay away from them. That should be a clue as to what S&W has done to it.

Lots of people have given them a fair shake, then dumped them after being bit in the ass.

If 6"+ groups at 25 yards is good enough for you, rock on. I don't personally carry guns I can outshoot, though.

 

[leprechaun]

Re: M&P or Glock

Where is it written about LAV and Hackathorn NOT recommending them?

As a update on this.

We have both Glock and S&W set up to come in for a shoot day in about 6 weeks. We are going to let as many people as would want to come in and shoot them and then fill out a survey.It should get interesting.

I think the biggest thing we will hear is about how the G21 is too big for the women's (and I don't mean just the females) hands.....

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO</div></div>

Apex is making a new locking block for the gun for guys who don't want to go through getting a barrel fit, and fitting bar-sto barrels for guys who are willing to go that far to save the gun.

There was a time when both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers were calling the M&P a "product improved Glock". Now they both recommend to stay away from them. That should be a clue as to what S&W has done to it.

Lots of people have given them a fair shake, then dumped them after being bit in the ass.

If 6"+ groups at 25 yards is good enough for you, rock on. I don't personally carry guns I can outshoot, though. </div></div>
I get 3-4" groups with the factory barrel so just learn to shoot and call it a day. Cheers

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO</div></div>

Apex is making a new locking block for the gun for guys who don't want to go through getting a barrel fit, and fitting bar-sto barrels for guys who are willing to go that far to save the gun.

There was a time when both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers were calling the M&P a "product improved Glock". Now they both recommend to stay away from them. That should be a clue as to what S&W has done to it.

Lots of people have given them a fair shake, then dumped them after being bit in the ass.

If 6"+ groups at 25 yards is good enough for you, rock on. <span style="color: #990000">I don't personally carry guns I can outshoot, though</span>. </div></div>
So you are saying a factory Glock can outshoot you? Wow.

 

[Downzero]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO</div></div>

Apex is making a new locking block for the gun for guys who don't want to go through getting a barrel fit, and fitting bar-sto barrels for guys who are willing to go that far to save the gun.

There was a time when both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers were calling the M&P a "product improved Glock". Now they both recommend to stay away from them. That should be a clue as to what S&W has done to it.

Lots of people have given them a fair shake, then dumped them after being bit in the ass.

If 6"+ groups at 25 yards is good enough for you, rock on. <span style="color: #990000">I don't personally carry guns I can outshoot, though</span>. </div></div>
So you are saying a factory Glock can outshoot you? Wow. </div></div>

I've probably shot more rounds this year than you have your whole life, and a stock Glock can still outshoot me.

I'm not a bullseye shooter, and I bet you aren't either.

 

[sw99]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: leprechaun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think the biggest thing we will hear is about how the G21 is too big for the women's (and I don't mean just the females) hands.....</div></div>

I am positive that will be the issue. Hell, a lot of men say that also.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: leprechaun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is it written about LAV and Hackathorn NOT recommending them?

As a update on this.

We have both Glock and S&W set up to come in for a shoot day in about 6 weeks. We are going to let as many people as would want to come in and shoot them and then fill out a survey.It should get interesting.

I think the biggest thing we will hear is about how the G21 is too big for the women's (and I don't mean just the females) hands.....</div></div>

MANY of his students have commented on it, here are some examples other than me:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93305

Hack doesn't post online but when I last talked to Larry about them he said Ken was done with them as well. In a class I took with him in Oct 2010, Larry expressed that had seen issues in his classes with too much frequency to recommend them anymore, and that he saw lots of people switching back to Glocks who wanted to like the M&P.

When I trained with him again in Feb 2011 at a 1911 class he expressed an even firmer opinion of how badly S&W had screwed the M&P up.

If you shoot him an email he'll probably tell you more. He answers questions on M4C, FYI.

 

[Bennyboy]

Re: M&P or Glock

Either would probably give you the service you desire. I prefer Glock--but it is a love/hate relationship. I HATE Glock, there is nothing sexy about a Glock (I LOVE my Ed Brown), but, even though I hate the Glock, I carry one every day, and I trust my life to it, and would hesitate to trust my life to anything else--whether I like it or not.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO</div></div>

Apex is making a new locking block for the gun for guys who don't want to go through getting a barrel fit, and fitting bar-sto barrels for guys who are willing to go that far to save the gun.

There was a time when both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers were calling the M&P a "product improved Glock". Now they both recommend to stay away from them. That should be a clue as to what S&W has done to it.

Lots of people have given them a fair shake, then dumped them after being bit in the ass.

If 6"+ groups at 25 yards is good enough for you, rock on. <span style="color: #990000">I don't personally carry guns I can outshoot, though</span>. </div></div>
So you are saying a factory Glock can outshoot you? Wow.</div></div>

I can hold ~3" groups at 25 yards when I do my part, with a few different 9mm Glocks.

My guns with factory barrels will keep up with me just fine. I may fit a match barrel in at some point, who knows.

I don't feel limited accuracy wise by my Glocks, no. An M&P that struggles to hold 6" groups wouldn't cut it for me.

So no, I can not reliably out-shoot my 2.5" or so at 25 yards Glocks... yet.

 

[Hi Speed]

Re: M&P or Glock

Gaston Glock made the pistol by which all others are compared.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You made a good buy. The M&P regardless is a great gun. I have had guys show up at the comps complaining about how there Glock does not shoot as good as their others. I see eight inch groups coming from Glock shooters a common thing. Truth is sometimes even with people who claim to know how to shoot don't get good groups all the time. I shoot M&P in competition with a .40 that has been worked over. The other guy who claimed APEX is building parts to fix the problems with M&P is like saying Lone Wolf had to build a complete new Glock copy to fix the crappy glock. APEX does not build barrels only internals. I have never had a problem with a factory M&P. The only reason I changed all my springs in my competition gun is its just that a competition gun. I don't have time to fix something after the fact I have to keep it up and ready to go all the time. I have seen glocks jam more than any other gun on the lines. I have seen XDs eat it the worst. I have seen glocks that run perfect all the time, same with the M&Ps. If we push our guns to the max we are going to have an issue sometime. The M&P pro's had an issue with the sights falling off on the early models (I don't know why that was not mentioned) It was an easy fix but regardless a stupid thing to have happen coming from the factory. The GEN 4 Glocks had a rough start with all kinds of problems. I like buying American! Why have a US police force shooting an Austrian gun? The M&P works better for adapting it to fit all kinds of shooters. If you want to go to the triggers both guns suck coming from the factory. Both can be fixed without extra parts. After a trigger job the M&P is better than a glock with a trigger job. I have had every single glock shooter I shoot with agree that my trigger feels better than any of theirs. I have seen people buy M&Ps just because they felt the trigger on my gun. (These were Glock shooters) So I still stand with M&P over Glock anyday. I would trust my life on either gun but that is because I have fixed what needs to be done to the glock, the M&P factory is already GTG. JMHO</div></div>

Apex is making a new locking block for the gun for guys who don't want to go through getting a barrel fit, and fitting bar-sto barrels for guys who are willing to go that far to save the gun.

There was a time when both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers were calling the M&P a "product improved Glock". Now they both recommend to stay away from them. That should be a clue as to what S&W has done to it.

Lots of people have given them a fair shake, then dumped them after being bit in the ass.

If 6"+ groups at 25 yards is good enough for you, rock on. <span style="color: #990000">I don't personally carry guns I can outshoot, though</span>. </div></div>
So you are saying a factory Glock can outshoot you? Wow.</div></div>

I can hold ~3" groups at 25 yards when I do my part, with a few different 9mm Glocks.

My guns with factory barrels will keep up with me just fine. I may fit a match barrel in at some point, who knows.

I don't feel limited accuracy wise by my Glocks, no. An M&P that struggles to hold 6" groups wouldn't cut it for me.

So no, I can not reliably out-shoot my 2.5" or so at 25 yards Glocks... yet. </div></div>
But in your review you have yet to do any research on the crap load of problems with the Gen $ glocks. Look at glocktalks forum. A forum of glock shooters who think the gen 4 is shit. Glock had to fix a bunch of problems, At least glock will fix the issue as will Smith and Wesson. I am not trying to justify either but I don't have my head in the sand to think glock is the answer. Lets see a gun that shoots a bad group compared to one that gets a stovepipe jam every box (a common problem with the Gen 4s early on) the extractors were crap, the guide rods were crap and glock tried to play catch up which took 2 months for most. The M&P is still a better gun. I have never had an M&P that didn't hold under 3.5 inches. I know most people have great groups. I have seen some glocks shoot under 4 inches while others equally as bad as the eight inch groups the guy claimed from the m&ps. My M&P will eat any ammo I shoot through it. The Glock will try but stovepipes way to often. Plus lead will explode a glock and yes I have seen that done (On purpose) The M&P did not have the problem. Plus Larry Vickers sells glock parts so if you want to place your head in your ass and use him as a good source go ahead. On top of that he always has been a big glock guy ever since they started sending him free stuff. Its like saying Costa likes magpul so we should only buy their stuff.

 

[Turk]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hi Speed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gaston Glock made the pistol by which all others are compared. </div></div>
If only Browning was alive; he may have something to say about that!

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hi Speed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gaston Glock made the pistol by which all others are compared. </div></div>
If only Browning was alive; he may have something to say about that! </div></div>
Yeah and the XD was created by Springfield Armory, lol

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: M&P or Glock

Strangedays, I know Larry personally. He brought out some Glock upgrades because he felt they addressed a deficiency with the guns.

He was also a paid consultant for HK... yet he shoots Glocks a lot... hmm, wonder why? If you knew Larry, you would know he just tells it like it it.

He doesn't get "free Glocks" either, FYI.

It's obvious that you're just interested in defending the M&P to the death... so have at it.

The Gen 4 Glocks have had a number of problems in 9mm, as have recent production 9mm's. The Gen 4 .40's and .45's seem to be running better than ever, however.

Glock is killing their own brand name with their own corner cutting and the way they've handled the Gen 4's with the public. I hope the new FN striker fired pistol crushes them... but I doubt it will.

You seem to think I have some emotional attachment to Glocks or something... I don't. I tried switching to an HK P30 about a year or two ago. It just doesn't work with hands as well as Glocks do (trigger travel and shorter trigger reach at the break point killed it for me - I have really long fingers...)

Glock and S&W are both killing their reputation these days. The M&P ship is just sinking faster.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: M&P or Glock

Jim D you still don't get it. Do you own both or just the one side story you share? So you know Larry thanks for adding to the bias. The difference is M&P one week to get what you need delt with. Glock two months. I think anyone would know how stupid it is to compare such.

 

[gathert]

Re: M&P or Glock

I had a friend break his striker in his M&P in 9mm the other day. Dry fired it too many times. Doubt you will see that happen to a Glock.

 

[Downzero]

Re: M&P or Glock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gathert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a friend break his striker in his M&P in 9mm the other day. Dry fired it too many times. Doubt you will see that happen to a Glock. </div></div>

And there's an updated striker to deal with that.

All mechanical devices can have issues. The real question is how the manufacturers handle them.

I've never heard of any issues with Glock or S&W's customer service. S&W's is absolutely excellent; I've used it myself.

 

[gathert]

Re: M&P or Glock

I haven't done much looking at the M&P so I didn't know about the updated striker. Their customer service is good, which makes up for minor issues like that. If everything stayed in development to be perfect, nothing would ever get produced.