M1 Carbine question

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm doing a restoration on an M1 Carbine (I know, I know...); a Plainfield. It's got some nice looking wood, and will be getting the oil finish treatment; but first, I'm cleaning up and reblueing the metal.

The Trigger housing and front sight look like they have some entrenched surface rust. But on closer inspection, they look like it's some sort of copper wash underneath the metal finish (Blue?).

Not sure what I'm looking at here. Can anyone enlighten me?

Greg

 

[JMGlasgow]

Pictures?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Been here 19 years, and I've never done pictures...

But I do thank you for taking the interest.

After applying the Brownell's 44/40 Cold Blue, the finish is getting darker. So, I think the question is becoming moot.

Greg

 

[Son of Dorn]

Greg, I have a Plainfield M1 "paratrooper" carbine and on it there are places on the trigger housing where the copper brazing is pretty obvious, but I don't see anything like you describe on the front sight. Maybe just some sloppy workmanship from Plainfield or different parts lots? Earlier ones used a mix of Plainfield and USGI and later ones were all Plainfield IIRC.

 

[Ledzep]

I've seen the copper brazing on M1 Garand parts before. The lower ferrule on the front of the stock, and in other places around the trigger guard. I haven't inspected my carbine close enough to remember seeing it on that rifle, though.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yes, the brazing is visible; it's not what I'm talking about. The entire trigger housing and front sight wraparound/wings appears to have a deposition of something similar looking to copper wash, underneath the black/blue finish.

As I said above, the question is probably moot. The 44/40 Blue is covering, and the resulting finish is acceptable. This work is being done for a friend at no cost, and I'm not gonna let it get me knotted up.

Greg

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Yes, the brazing is visible; it's not what I'm talking about. The entire trigger housing and front sight wraparound/wings appears to have a deposition of something similar looking to copper wash, underneath the black/blue finish.

As I said above, the question is probably moot. The 44/40 Blue is covering, and the resulting finish is acceptable. This work is being done for a friend at no cost, and I'm not gonna let it get me knotted up.

Greg

Heat treated parts are sometimes wrapped in copper foil during heat treating. During the process, some copper can end up deposited on the surface of the heat treated parts. Could that be what is going on??

Cheers, Sirhr

 

[Greg Langelius *]

That's the very best suggestion I've heard.

Greg

 

[Corprin]

My question is why the, “I know, I know.” I love my M1 Carbine, and anyone that mocks you for having a WWII vintage warhorse can pound sand.

There’s a good reason many folks horse-traded away their issued rifles for them during combat operations.

 

[hlee]

Essentially disposable magazines have given the M1 carbine a reputation for unreliability. And, they tend to exhibit indifferent precision. I inherited mine from my grand father and it is a prized possession. But, it's more of a bullet hose than a precision firearm. This is a precision rifle board. I think that is where the "I know, I know" comes from...

 

[RTH1800]

I have an M1 carbine that shoots right on the sights and will hold 2.75" at 100 yards. It's a joy to carry and shoot. I use USGI ammo for targets and 110 grain Speer bullets for game. Great little rifle. They were underrated for several reasons. One is that on large Europeans, longer ranges and in cold weather they had issues will shooting through clothing and killing. Very few if any complaints in the Pacific.
Another is that natural tendency to compare them to the M1 Garand. Compared to the .45 ACP that they were intended to replace they are an amazing improvement.

Remember, there is no corrosive ammo for the carbine. None was loaded by the US for sure. Not sure of other countries but likely none there either.

 

[Centuriator]

The M1 Carbine is just plain a lot of fun to use and to shoot. It never ceases to amaze me when people talk about them being "unreliable" it's when they are using a 60-70 year old weapon with the original springs...hello! What do they expect? Replace all the springs, get it nice and lubed up/tuned up and you are good to go.

 

[Corprin]

The M1 Carbine is just plain a lot of fun to use and to shoot. It never ceases to amaze me when people talk about them being "unreliable" it's when they are using a 60-70 year old weapon with the original springs...hello! What do they expect? Replace all the springs, get it nice and lubed up/tuned up and you are good to go.

I’ve got a CMP “white bag” with 300rds down the pipe, no new springs needed yet. ?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My question is why the, “I know, I know.” I love my M1 Carbine, and anyone that mocks you for having a WWII vintage warhorse can pound sand.

There’s a good reason many folks horse-traded away their issued rifles for them during combat operations.

If somebody's mocking me for anything regarding the M1 Carbine, I completely missed it.

My comment is about doing a restoration of a historical artifact. It's often frowned on, and often rightly so.

My view is to only do so if all are in agreement that the particular rifle's collectible value is not at issue; and that the rifle is intended to be used. I want them all to be used, but I also have no problem with folks who deal with them as collectible commodities. Their guns, their choice.

I have done restorations in the past and they worked; they all look beautiful. But their collector value is negated by doing the restoration.

It's a choice, and it's irrevocable.

Indifferent accuracy, I believe, may stem from handloading. It's a quirky chambering, and handloads can often fail to both cycle the rifle and deliver accuracy; one or the other, but sometimes, not both.

The rifle in question was bought for $50 when the owner threw in the towel over cycling/accuracy. He had been handloading for the gun. The gun was brought to a gunsmith to figure out the problem. The Gunsmith/LGS owner handed the new Carbine owner two boxes of commercial loads and told him, "Shoot these. If you come back and don't want the gun, I'll give you $500 for it. If you do like it; you'll owe me for two boxes of ammo".

The gun functioned flawlessly.

I might buy one; but for now, no.

SWMBO is nix on new guns at the moment. Maybe acquiring/building three AR15's and an AR10 in the past year may have something to do with it. I do have the Ruger PC Carbine 9mm to slake my thirst for a Carbine at the moment.

Greg

 

[Centuriator]

My comment is about doing a restoration of a historical artifact. It's often frowned on, and often rightly so.

If you are collecting anything for the purpose of museum display/storage...sure...do not touch it. If you want actually to have fun using it and shooting it...no issues with bringing it back into mil-spec as issued. Way too much emotion expended on this issue. Do what you want. It's YOUR rifle, your money, your choice.

Me? I've never purchased a firearm I was unwilling actually to get out to the range and shoot it. I have acquired and fired and had fun with every main battle rifle issued to Allied troops during WWII. Seriously. EVERY ONE.

Shot them. enjoyed them.

I had accumulated six M1 Garands and hung on to them for about five years, each one of them excellent condition WWII receivers, original barrels, etc. from CMP and then I turned around and sold each one for at least twice what I paid. Do I regret it? Nope. I put hundreds of rounds down range through an M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. Loved it. Enjoyed it. I know what's it like.

(I even put on a steel pot WWII helmet and put a full clip through an M1 Garand just to experience what it must have been like shooting with no hearing protection---holy crap-- trust me...you do not hear the "ping" when the clip ejects).

Do what you want, it's a free country (sort of-for now).

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I once sold my one and only Springfield '03; because I was undergoing Chemo for (my second occurrence of, and for a different form of) Lymphoma, the rifle was beating the poop out of me, and I flatly refused to own a rifle I couldn't shoot.

It was not a mistake.

If you get to live through doing what you did, it's not a mistake; it's a lesson...

The only design I have multiples of is my AR's.

But that's not a collection; each one is distinctly different from the others. They all have purposes, and each one's purpose is unique within my stable.

I keep tellin' myself that...

BTW, the Carbine in question is waiting for the final coat of Tru-Oil finish to cure. There are some sundry small bits that will receive a coat of blueing (Brownell's 44/40 Cream), and the major parts will get a second one.

Greg

...Aaaand..., PS:

Someone broke a screen trying to get into the house today at 6AM. It's repairable. It was raining hard.

Good thing for them, they failed.

New lights are going up today. It's for their own good; wouldn't want a trespasser to trip, or anything....

 

[Centuriator]

Hey, hand in there, Greg and God bless. I'll pray for you.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Thank you. That was back around '95, FWIW. Been plenty more under that bridge since...

As of this moment, the blueing is done, all of the stock metal except the band retainer leaf spring is reinstalled, and final assembly is simply waiting for the Tru-Oil to harden up.

It's going to be a nice one.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The carbine is done. The 'last coat' wasn't. I cut everything back on down to the wood with #3, #0, and #0000.

One drop of oil applied in four places on the stock, palm rubbed out until it was even, dry to the touch. There is no grain visible in the reflection of light off the wood, the finish is a soft, satiny sheen.

Aside from the four drops, there is practically no oil on the wood; all the other remaining oil is in the wood.

Rifle is reassembled; it will sit out overnight to harden.

She done...!

Greg

 

[Son of Dorn]

(I even put on a steel pot WWII helmet and put a full clip through an M1 Garand just to experience what it must have been like shooting with no hearing protection---holy crap-- trust me...you do not hear the "ping" when the clip ejects).

Anyone who claims the "PING!" would alert enemy soldiers to the gun being empty is a dumbass, lol.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I have a couple of carbines. They were created as a pistol alternative for tankers, officers, rear echelon types, etc. they immediately became popular with the tip of the spear folks for being light, reliable, accurate and if not powerful... enough to stop a Jerry or a Jap with a pill in center mass.

Tons of them went to VN where they were ideal for the small statured LLDB (lousy little dirty bugouts). In the 1990s hundreds of thousands were reimported by places like Blue Sky Arsenal which stamped them under the muzzle with import marks and sold them to unsuspecting buyers. These reimported were largely junk and gave the carbine an undeserved reputation.

They were a fine gun, though no Garand... but they were never intended to be!

For a great movie about the origins of the M1 carbine, watch Jimmy Stewart in Carbine Williams.

Did you know it was developed in, IIRC, Raeford Prison? By a prisoner? David Marshall Williams?

Sirhr

 

[Son of Dorn]

I have a couple of carbines. They were created as a pistol alternative for tankers, officers, rear echelon types, etc. they immediately became popular with the tip of the spear folks for being light, reliable, accurate and if not powerful... enough to stop a Jerry or a Jap with a pill in center mass.

Tons of them went to VN where they were ideal for the small statured LLDB (lousy little dirty bugouts). In the 1990s hundreds of thousands were reimported by places like Blue Sky Arsenal which stamped them under the muzzle with import marks and sold them to unsuspecting buyers. These reimported were largely junk and gave the carbine an undeserved reputation.

They were a fine gun, though no Garand... but they were never intended to be!

For a great movie about the origins of the M1 carbine, watch Jimmy Stewart in Carbine Williams.

Did you know it was developed in, IIRC, Raeford Prison? By a prisoner? David Marshall Williams?

Sirhr

I did know this!

I have one almost exactly like this MAAG/MACV Advisor's, except his has a vented metal handguard and mine's solid wood:

Very comfortable to hold with the double pistol grips, but the wire stock isn't the best fit for my shoulder.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Rifle returned to sender, smiles all around.

 

[Foul Mike]

You gave it up and returned it to sender after all of that work?

 

[BytorJr]

First center-fire rifle I ever shot was a M1 Carbine so it brings back memories. Still don't understand folks say it is a poodle shooter. Inside 200 yards it's still as potent as a 357 magnum at 100 yards (energy wise), and with new ammo like Hornady it makes a formidable home defense weapon. Especially if you put a 1913 rail on it with a red-dot. One day....I'll go this route.

BTW, how hard is it to change out all the springs and such - since somebody mentioned that. I look for these at our lame shows here in 'Bama but never find any worth looking at. Since I'm looking for a "shooter" I could probably just get an Inland or Auto-Ordnance.

 

[sandwarrior]

You gave it up and returned it to sender after all of that work?

I believe that was the original intent...?

 

[Foul Mike]

I apologize, it seems I did not read well everything in this thread. I will go back and figure it out.
That is what you get when you just skim over things FM

 

[Greg Langelius *]

It was. I do this stuff for a hobby. If someone insists on paying, I charge them two drinks at the VFW Club Canteen, and then I return the favor. So basically, people give me things to work on that make me happy, and sometime they buy me a couple of drinks, too.

This started out when I offered to maintain the VFW's eight Parade Rifles, assorted Garands, mostly Post-WWII. They belong to Uncle sugar, and cannot be legally fired with ammo employing projectiles. Blanks are free from, again, Uncle Sugar. They are provided with BFA's, and Gas Cylinder Locks are not provided. We have an eight man firing team and we do our thing every Memorial Day at the local (tiny) cemetery.

I cleaned them the first year, and then I went "Gaack!" over the as-issued condition. The metal had wear and some minor rust, and the stocks were aftermarket some large grained hard as oak white wood with a sh*t ton of mud colored alcohol stain. Plus, some predecessor had simply saturateded everything in WD-40, which had eventually turned into a gummy varnish over the years. I knew I could do better, and I felt that I needed to.

So, next year, I fully stripped the finish back down to the wood and proceeded to establish a hand rubbed oil finish on them using Tru-Oil, all metal removed from the wood for the process. Each year since, they get a light polishing down with #0000 steel wool, and three more additional light, hand-rubbed coats of Tru-Oil. It's all elbow grease with a tiny expenditure for the oil and steel wool. It's how I spend my Summers.

The year after the wood, I thoroughly cleaned, degreased, and de-rusted the metal, and refinished it with Brownell's 44/40 Cream Cold Blue. Each year thereafter, any touch-ups required get done with the same products.

The rifles look something like original issue; but they also still have the 'character marks' in the wood, and the metal is all flat jet black. Not authentic, but a really nice look for some Parade Rifles.

To date, the project has cost me about $50 and about 100 Man Days of work over four years.

As Summer Stay-cations go, it's a cool blast and costs me next to nothing.

The Carbines are an entirely separate thing.

Greg

 

[Foul Mike]

I too take care of the Parade Garands around here. Used to be AL and VFW but AL folded so all are with VFW now and I clean them all.
I haven't felt I needed to mess with stocks, I just keep them running for Parades and Honor Guard. That keeps me busy enough but we don't have misfires or failures to function any more.
Greg, have you drilled out BFAs,? CMP has the instructions, kind of necessary for newer blanks being issued.
Reminds me that I need to check our stock of blanks.
I find it amazing that so few people know how to tear them down and maintain them.
That or they are too lazy and don't want dirty hands so leave it to The Old Hippie to do it.

Currently we are having trouble finding enough Old Farts to man the guns and keep up the tradition.
We have given that honor to too many of them and the younger generations are not stepping up to carry it on.

 

[hlee]

Where are the pics? We need pics. Before and after. Glamour shots. Ah, well. No rifle pics? I'm headed to the motivational pics thread in Maggie's...

 

[myronman3]

On the subject of the m1 carbine...i have one that is chrome plated with a mahogany stock. Ive done a search online or two, and never seen one like it. I wonder what the backstory is. Anyone ever seen anything similar?

 

[Corprin]

On the subject of the m1 carbine...i have one that is chrome plated with a mahogany stock. Ive done a search online or two, and never seen one like it. I wonder what the backstory is. Anyone ever seen anything similar?

Pics? Is the action heel stamped?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

On the subject of the m1 carbine...i have one that is chrome plated with a mahogany stock. Ive done a search online or two, and never seen one like it. I wonder what the backstory is. Anyone ever seen anything similar?

Does it have anything like a medallion inletted into The stock?

Iirc in the late 70s or early ‘80s Universal made a nickel plated carbine.

Or was just some gunsmithing lark or even a ceremonial or parade gun. Third world armies had plenty of palace guards or ceremonial troops who would stand outside doors with chrome rifles. One could easily have been reimported.

Cheers, Sirhr

 

[RTH1800]

Many guns for marine use were nickel plated for corrosion resistance in the past. I have seen a few ”kits” for marine usage containing 1911’s, Colt Woodsman’s, Winchester Mod. 97’s and Mod. 12’s. One even had a pair of Thompsons.
Oddly, I have seldom seen much written about these kits. Some wee obviously factory down to the sea going containers.

 

[myronman3]

Pics? Is the action heel stamped?

I’ll get that information and pictures tonight when i get home.

No medallions. If i remember correctly, the internals are all done as well. I’m one of those still working today......people lose their minds if their naked-lady-machines dont work. Telephone can be out for months on end, and no one cares anymore. But heaven forbid they are not getting their full 40meg and they are not able to download their porn fast enough. Lol.

 

[Corprin]

I’ll get that information and pictures tonight when i get home.

No medallions. If i remember correctly, the internals are all done as well. I’m one of those still working today......people lose their minds if their naked-lady-machines dont work. Telephone can be out for months on end, and no one cares anymore. But heaven forbid they are not getting their full 40meg and they are not able to download their porn fast enough. Lol.

Lol. Ironically, I’m trying to call and figure out what my COVID-19 results are and my cell network has no open lines. So I just called through my VOIP through my secure VPN to work. Internet is working just fine!

Check the heel of the action, behind the rear sight, or under the rear sight assembly if Type II.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

No, I haven't drilled out the BFA's, and I should; we continue to have issues with feeding. I'm planning on looking into it today.

Pictures? In the time I've been here, the entire lifespan of SH, I have never posted a picture. IMHO, that's the definition of stubborn.

I was a professional freelance systems technical writer before I got up to speed here, and my contractees demanded that my writing style employed the mind's eye instead photography. Too expensive to produce illustrated tech manuals. My line got drawn at flowcharts. Back in the 90's, DTP (Desktop Publishing) was not a feature rich as it is today. It's my style, and I'm stickin' to it...

If you want to see the kind of work I do, look at pmclaine's pictures, they look very much like my work.

Greg

 

[Foul Mike]

Greg, and others that do Veterans of Foreign Wars and/or American Legion "Ceremonial Garands" you just need to look around at how old your blanks are. and when issued.
If they are brass formed and look like a somewhat regular round with a red tip, they are older than you or getting there.
If they are star crimped they need the BFAs drilled out and everything you need to know is on CMP.

In the past I was able to get on there at CMP and get parts I needed and actually get a person on the phone and get a new issue of Blank AMMO.
The newer blanks go Bang almost all of the time.

Few realize how OLD their blanks are and don't take it into consideration. Dud ammo is still dud ammo.

Feel free to PM me on this subject. I Never worried about how they looked, that is up to who is using the rifle, he can have another one, but that never happens and we do not issue anything I or they would not be Proud to carry,
The Old Farts are just glad to have a Rifle that works right every time. Most care little about looks, just, "Does it work right?"

Our main problem now is finding enough people to fill the ranks of the" Honor Guard"

To anyone involved with such activities as from above. Do be on the lookout for anything with a 5 star crimp, used for grenade launching. They are out there and some old Vet may contribute them to the cause feeling good about it, "Had these in my garage for 50 years ETC." but if it goes off in a BFA Garand it is a gauronteed fuck up and a blown rifle at best.

In my 28+ years of doing this I have found 2, 5 crimps, both hot as Hell, 1 from a widow and one from an Old Vet that wanted it used at his funeral. They are out there, watch for them. They Will blow shit UP.. FM

 

[myronman3]

Here are the pics....sorry about the thread hijack

 

[Son of Dorn]

View attachment 7274693View attachment 7274694View attachment 7274695View attachment 7274697

Here are the pics....sorry about the thread hijack

Looks to me like someone had a surplus carbine, chromed (or nickeled?) it to keep it from rusting, and did some stock work to use it for plinking or varminting maybe.

 

[Corprin]

I’d agree, surplus someone tried to doll up.

Any import marks under the barrel? If not... can you repark a chromed rifle?!

 

[Son of Dorn]

I’d agree, surplus someone tried to doll up.

Any import marks under the barrel? If not... can you repark a chromed rifle?!

You can reverse-electroplate it off. There are undoubtedly metal specialists who can do that, and probably gunsmiths/refinishers too. Most chrome finishes seem to be done over a nickel base, and nickel oughta be relatively easy to strip but should be done professionally.

 

[myronman3]

chances are i’ll never fire it. shot it when i was a kid a few times. i do not foresee me ever shooting it again. it’ll sit as is with the ridiculous finish on it.

the backstory on it is, my dad had it. one would think that all i’d have to do is ask him for the origins of it, but that isnt so easy anymore. i do appreciate the insight. even though it is a silly gun....kinda like something i’d expect to see the joker using in a movie.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

chances are i’ll never fire it. shot it when i was a kid a few times. i do not foresee me ever shooting it again. it’ll sit as is with the ridiculous finish on it.

the backstory on it is, my dad had it. one would think that all i’d have to do is ask him for the origins of it, but that isnt so easy anymore. i do appreciate the insight. even though it is a silly gun....kinda like something i’d expect to see the joker using in a movie.

Note the cheekpiece someone tried to carve into it.... not deep enough to function. But at a distance...

I'd say someone was practicing gunsmithing on a cheap surplus carbine... and didn't do half bad!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sandwarrior]

I do like that cheekpiece.

I wouldn't worry about it being chromed. If it shoots, shoot it. Don't bury it in the back of the safe. I don't know how much .30 carbine you've shot, but they are a ton of fun.

 

[Random Guy]

That re-finished Carbine reminded me of one that a deceased relative of mine had. I saved this picture from his estate that shows a hand-carved deer on the buttstock, checkering, and some sort of animal on the bottom forend too. I think back in the 1960s-1970s when M1 Carbines were super cheap and available, folks customized them like this. Given today's value of these items, folks don't do this anymore...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I found it interesting Mr Hackathorn said the M1 Carbine was basically the original AR15 so to speak. Makes sense.. lightweight, easy to shoot/low recoil, intermediate cartridge capable of common combat distances..

 

[Zeroit]

chances are i’ll never fire it. shot it when i was a kid a few times. i do not foresee me ever shooting it again. it’ll sit as is with the ridiculous finish on it.

the backstory on it is, my dad had it. one would think that all i’d have to do is ask him for the origins of it, but that isnt so easy anymore. i do appreciate the insight. even though it is a silly gun....kinda like something i’d expect to see the joker using in a movie.

That is a WW2

View attachment 7274693View attachment 7274694View attachment 7274695View attachment 7274697

Here are the pics....sorry about the thread hijack

That serial number is from June of 1943 to October 1943.
You can still get orginal stocks, parts etc.
and new or original barrels.
Still is a piece of history.
I have 3 , 1 inland about that age, and two late war Winchesters.
I have shot all of them, I needed to make sure all can function.

 

[sandwarrior]

I found it interesting Mr Hackathorn said the M1 Carbine was basically the original AR15 so to speak. Makes sense.. lightweight, easy to shoot/low recoil, intermediate cartridge capable of common combat distances..

I love that video. I had seen it a while back and the story he relates about first the Germans, then the Americans and what they grabbed is really interesting. It was a better rifle than what many gave it credit for including my dad. He hates it because he "bolo'd" on a qualification with one. Probably because, as explained in the video, that the sights didn't shoot to the weapon's POI.

Of course, in the video, it also says what's totally true and Americans will migrate like magnets to steel to pistols. I see this today still.

Thanks for posting that video again, coyote.

 

[Foul Mike]

Hoping to not de-rail this too bad but I have 2 30/40 Krags that got "Sporterized" and both would bring tears to Baby Jesus' eyes.
One has a peep sight D/T for that era that is probably worthless but the other one is pristine as far as metal goes but the original stock has been cut, glued, and added on to in the most horrible manner one can imagine.
Every time I look at it I cry but that is what the Old Guys did with instructions from things like Popular Mechanics and rags such as that at the time.
I hope to restore it sometime.
Compared to what I have, the alterations to those stocks are Art.