M118LR Inconsistencies

[Darkside-Six]

I often see people asking about the accuracy of M118LR, or asking for what the load data is for it. I see this the most with newer shooters, as it seems to be the "TacticCool" thing or because it's what the Military uses. The M118LR that is availible for the commercial use is not the same as the Military grade if i'm not mistaken. Occasionaly I will buy some M118LR for general target practice as I use the LR brass for my custom loads, and the brass itself is hard to find.

I bought (2) 240rd cans of this back in October. Both from the same lot (2013) and I've been shooting though it over the last few months. I noticed that about 1 in every 10-12 rounds would not go off. Would have a solid primer strike but not fire. I just set these aside and planned on pulling the bullets later to recycle into my custom loads. Every once in a while I would have an impact a good inch or more off my POA when I called a clean shot. Having thought that I may have pulled it or soemthing....it had me second guessing myself a few times.

Well, I ran through the rest of this ammo this last weekend and began to prep the brass. Out of the 480 rounds I purchased, I had 33 that did not fire, so I decided to pull the bullets and measure the powder in each round for consistencies. Boy was I suprised. Out of the 33 bullets pulled and measure about 12 of them were right at the 43.5 grain mark. The rest were way off. Some were as low as 42.7 and as high as 44.3. Now I made a very tedeous effort to make sure i accurately measured each round and did not spill any grains. I knew that the commercial M118Lr wasn't the most accurate stuff out there, but I did not expect to have this much inconsistencies.

Has anyone else done or experienced this? I'd be curious to know just how often this occurs.

 

[matt2143]

I had 3k rounds, same lot of mil M118LR and saw the same thing. At 1k yards it made me look bad. I can shoot clay pigeons at 400 yards no problem but the ES on the ammo was usually about 75-85 fps. And it was temp sensitive so I would go out in the winter and the rounds were dropping like a rock!

 

[ahhshoot]

A buddy of mine shot a couple boxes of the 175gr M118LR alongside FGMM 175gr. There was no question that the GMM was more consistent. At 700 yards it was significant. The M118LR did shoot better than most other commercially available ammo options so I didn't care too much, it did the job.

 

[Darkside-Six]

A buddy of mine shot a couple boxes of the 175gr M118LR alongside FGMM 175gr. There was no question that the GMM was more consistent. At 700 yards it was significant. The M118LR did shoot better than most other commercially available ammo options so I didn't care too much, it did the job.

Thats the way I feel as well, and like I said.....I really like the LR Brass for custom loading, but damn! didn't think it was that far off.

 

[ahhshoot]

Thats the way I feel as well, and like I said.....I really like the LR Brass for custom loading, but damn! didn't think it was that far off.

The powder charge inconsistencies you noted are surprising and substantial. I would think they could do better than that for what is the 'long range' ammo. I wonder what our designated defensive marksmen have to say about it?

We did develop a question from our little test that you might be able to help us out with. I was under the impression that the M118LR was loaded with the SMK 175 grain like the GMM. However, our impacts on a steel disk from a piece of agricultural equipment told a different story. Every impact from the GMM penetrated the disk, whereas every impact from the M118LR the bullet disintegrated and did not damage the disk. In fact, a couple of low shots that bounced off the dirt from the GMM still penetrated the disk. Do you know whether the bullets are SMK 175gr or do they have something else? Maybe Sierra has a special line of bullet made for this ammo..I dunno...

 

[roggom]

Which rifle are you shooting these from. I only ask as I have two Remington 700 in 308 circa 2010 and both had excessive headspace (closed on no-go, pass field), I only realized this last year but have at least 2k down each one. My point is if the rounds that did not go off were less than saami on the cartridge headspace, it may be the reason.

I loaded up some virgin Lapua and fired off about 20 rounds, came home and loaded them up for the next day. Out of the 20, 3 would not fire and had good primer strikes. I really do not think they are bad primers as I live in CO and the air quality is always dry. I found that I bumped the shoulders to much(4 thou under saami using a n RCBS precision mic).

As for powder, I am sure there will be some inconsistency, just because of the volume of ammo coming out of LC.


If and when you reload up the duds. I would mark them with a sharpie to see if they go still fire the next go around.

 

[Darkside-Six]

The powder charge inconsistencies you noted are surprising and substantial. I would think they could do better than that for what is the 'long range' ammo. I wonder what our designated defensive marksmen have to say about it?

We did develop a question from our little test that you might be able to help us out with. I was under the impression that the M118LR was loaded with the SMK 175 grain like the GMM. However, our impacts on a steel disk from a piece of agricultural equipment told a different story. Every impact from the GMM penetrated the disk, whereas every impact from the M118LR the bullet disintegrated and did not damage the disk. In fact, a couple of low shots that bounced off the dirt from the GMM still penetrated the disk. Do you know whether the bullets are SMK 175gr or do they have something else? Maybe Sierra has a special line of bullet made for this ammo..I dunno...

That's a good point. They look just like every other SMK I've seen and I weighed each of them to and they were all at 175gr give or take .1 gr.

Which rifle are you shooting these from. I only ask as I have two Remington 700 in 308 circa 2010 and both had excessive headspace (closed on no-go, pass field), I only realized this last year but have at least 2k down each one. My point is if the rounds that did not go off were less than saami on the cartridge headspace, it may be the reason.

I loaded up some virgin Lapua and fired off about 20 rounds, came home and loaded them up for the next day. Out of the 20, 3 would not fire and had good primer strikes. I really do not think they are bad primers as I live in CO and the air quality is always dry. I found that I bumped the shoulders to much(4 thou under saami using a n RCBS precision mic).

As for powder, I am sure there will be some inconsistency, just because of the volume of ammo coming out of LC.


If and when you reload up the duds. I would mark them with a sharpie to see if they go still fire the next go around.

Theyr are all fired out of the same rifle. Thats a good idea, but I've already thrown them in the tumbler with the rest of the brass. I'll have to remember that next time.

 

[JSTARSZ]

I have seen the same thing in M118LR rounds as I believe so did the Navy when they went and developed the MK316 MOD 0. The one thing that I do love about the M118LR rounds is the brass for reloading as I do find them to be pretty consistent. I was doing tests the other day and found that the M118LR brass and some of the new Federal GMM brass weigh almost the exact same. Some of the older federal brass sucked, as it was soft, but the newer stuff is worthy of reloading and making your own M118LR rds with better tolerances.

 

[mudpig]

Just to throw this out there....I don't know if this is always 100% true or not, but it was my impression that military ammunition on the civilian market was of the XM type meaning that it was a rejected lot from the military due to whatever reasons (excessive velocity variation, accuracy outside of milspec limits etc.) Any other military ammo I've ever seen has been broken down into components before being sold to the civilian market.
I can't explain the difference in penitration between the two types of ammo, but being XM would mostly explain the rest. I too am fairly certain that the military is still using the Sierra 175.

 

[solvovir]

"From an Ex-Soldier that worked and trained at the Lake City Plant, Me:

I shoot both of these rounds from an Integrally Suppressed FN PBR .308. I find the Federal GMM to be just a bit more consistent at 600+. Less than that, the M118LR is excellent from a 1:12 twist. Probably better from a 1:10, 1:9 LR platform. The most recent head stamps I have are LC08 and LC09, but the specs have not changed since then. Federal is still processing the ammo at Lake City and the M118 is made from essentially the same components as the GMM 175's. The secret to this cartridge is the SMK HPBT projectile (at all weights) has the best BC in .30 cal. The slightly more narrow Ogive and slightly longer overall bullet length give it awesome consistency even at long range and is now being used by many manufacturers on several .30 cal ammo lines.*

The issue with getting MilSurplus ammo these days is the law that forbids selling the extra pallets to civilians. In order for this ammo to get out, it has to be "seconds". But, some explanation of that is needed. When a box (usually about 125-150 loose rounds) of production ammo is inspected for QC, if a single round or a hundred rounds is/are found to be substandard, the whole box is tagged and separated. It is always, let me stress, it is ALWAYS, sold off as bulk ammo in boxes of 1000. If you buy it in a smaller box, someone repackaged it. In that box of 1000, there WILL be at least 8 bad rounds, maybe more. A general inspection will reveal: Dents deeper than 5 mm, or, split neck, or, dent on shoulder, or, unsealed primer, or seat-depth incorrect, or, similar defect. These defects (except for split neck or dent on shoulder) are cosmetic only and should have little effect on function. But, you need to check carefully for the split necks because they can be very dangerous if fired in a semi-auto weapon. again, you are looking for the few bad ones in the box to cull. All the rest of the ammo in that box of 1000 is fine.*

Designators:
The X designator on production ammo means that some rounds WILL be substandard. M118LR is the military round designator for the cartridge being produced. The PD or RO or HS or whatever designator specifies who the ammo was being produced for. RO is Radway Green (Royal Ordanance, England) and so forth. I am not sure who PD is, but my guess is it was being produced for Police forces somewhere in the world (Not US).

Some boxes may also be marked "For Training Purposed Only".
This designator comes from the seller of the ammo, not the plant. The only think coming out of LC that says "Training", also says "Inert". We do not produce or use different ammo for training and for combat. It is all the same. Some rounds no longer used in combat like the M193 5.56 55g, is used in training, but no longer fielded. The M855 5.56 62g is now being fielded and used in training. The new MK318 is being fielded, but not used in training. But, no substandard ammo is ever used for training.

I would suggest (after a pretty good inspection for the few bad rounds) shooting a few of the M118's at 300-400 meters and see what you get for groups. You may be surprised by the performance. If you are disappointed, sell them. I would bet 10 bucks you'll be impressed, not disappointed."

This is the info given to me a few months back when I was asking the same question. I did not write it.

 

[M40_A1]

It sucks that they have designated it "XM118LR". "XM" has always been reserved for "experimental" designation, and the "X" gets dropped once standardized and approved. I'm sure the "XM118LR" designation on these seconds craploa was intended to fool buyers into thinking it is quality, first-run military M118LR. Deceitful.

 

[yej0001]

...Out of the 480 rounds I purchased, I had 33 that did not fire...

Having 33 duds out of 480 is too high a failure rate. Was this a really bad batch? I never experienced one LC round that wouldn't fire

 

[Darkside-Six]

Having 33 duds out of 480 is too high a failure rate. Was this a really bad batch? I never experienced one LC round that wouldn't fire

I'm not sure, they were all the same year. I was thinking it may have been, but from what I've heard from others who have pulled bullets and measured the powder that there is a lot of inconsistancies.

 

[ArmyJerry]

What powder was in your pulled rounds DS?

 

[Darkside-Six]

what powder was in your pulled rounds ds?

imr 4064

 

[ArmyJerry]

That is a very hefty charge for LC Brass, I am running 4064 in the LC LR brass at 41.8 and they shoot perfect in my bolt guns as well as my LR 308 and M1a, 2.800 COAL.

 

[Darkside-Six]

That is a very hefty charge for LC Brass, I am running 4064 in the LC LR brass at 41.8 and they shoot perfect in my bolt guns as well as my LR 308 and M1a, 2.800 COAL.

what is your barrel twist, and what kind of velocity are you getting?

I just did load development with 4064 and found my best grouping is at 44.5. That's about 1.6gn under the max load so no pressure issues. My barrel is a Schneider 1/12 twist and i'm averaging 2740fps.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Barrels are all 1-10 except for my Savage 5 R, that is 11.25, I dont have a chrony but suspect I am getting them to about 2650 or so based on what I read from others out of my bolt guns, maybe 2500+ out of the AR's and M1a. They all shoot 1/2 to 5/8ths inch groups at 100.

 

[M40_A1]

imr 4064

4064 and RL-15 look very similar. I'm pretty sure the powder is supposed to be RL15. How sure are you that it was not RL-15? 2750 fps is not M118LR velocity, and 44.5 grains sounds much closer to the RL-15 loading for the correct M118LR velocity, which should be more in the neighborhood of 2600-2650 fps. Unless this commercial stuff is way out to lunch and nothing like the real thing at all.

 

[Darkside-Six]

4064 and RL-15 look very similar. I'm pretty sure the powder is supposed to be RL15. How sure are you that it was not RL-15? 2750 fps is not M118LR velocity, and 44.5 grains sounds much closer to the RL-15 loading for the correct M118LR velocity, which should be more in the neighborhood of 2600-2650 fps. Unless this commercial stuff is way out to lunch and nothing like the real thing at all.

actually, it use to be RL15 in M118LR but they switched a few years ago to IMR 4064.

And 2750 was my hand load at 44.5gr of 4064. When I Chronoed the M118's they were an average of 2640

 

[yej0001]

I'm not sure, they were all the same year. I was thinking it may have been, but from what I've heard from others who have pulled bullets and measured the powder that there is a lot of inconsistancies.

Could these rounds by any chance be someone's reloads? Are the brass dull/discolored as m118lr are supposed to? Do primers look replaced? m118lr do not have crimps, but some of them do have colored seal around primer pockets.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Could these rounds by any chance be someone's reloads? Are the brass dull/discolored as m118lr are supposed to? Do primers look replaced? m118lr do not have crimps, but some of them do have colored seal around primer pockets.

Nope, I've fired enough of them to know the difference.

 

[8up]

I shoot a lot of the M118LR, the ammo is accurate in all rifles I shoot, from duty weapon to personal ones. Seen numerous one hole groups with semi's at a 100 during fundamental grouping drills. My only complaint is MV inconsistent for temp's. On the DM role, it is a pain nonetheless. When used in conjunction with a kestrel, it works pretty darn good.

 

[M40_A1]

I shoot a lot of the M118LR, the ammo is accurate in all rifles I shoot, from duty weapon to personal ones. Seen numerous one hole groups with semi's at a 100 during fundamental grouping drills. My only complaint is MV inconsistent for temp's. On the DM role, it is a pain nonetheless. When used in conjunction with a kestrel, it works pretty darn good.

The op is specifically with reference to commercially available M118LR. Are you shooting commercial M118LR, or military M118LR?

actually, it use to be RL15 in M118LR but they switched a few years ago to IMR 4064.
And 2750 was my hand load at 44.5gr of 4064. When I Chronoed the M118's they were an average of 2640

O.K. But those powder weights you stated (42.7-44.3 gr.) are a full 1-3 grains more than the appropriate 4064 load for M118LR velocities. That is why I suspect your M118LR rounds had RL-15, not 4064. I could be wrong though.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I had a little better average, out of the 180 rounds fired so far, only one failed to fire, but it too had solid primer mark.

I bought 320 rounds in the 20 round brown cardboard boxes. Use it mostly as a testing round with new guns and if I run out of time too load before running to the range mid-summer, that type of thing. Has shot great at 100, 300 and 500 yards, which is all I have tried it at. I was shocked a couple range sessions back when I chrono'd several rounds with a magnetospeed---they were all over the place with an ES like 75-80 fps, so not surprised by the varied charges you found.

 

[8up]

The op is specifically with reference to commercially available M118LR. Are you shooting commercial M118LR, or military M118LR?

Sorry, shoot military 118