just sent off a bunch of money for a M1A scout squad model in a sage stock.so what kind of accuracy should i expect out of this rifle? also i need to find a thread adapter to put a sandstorm on it.
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M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
- Thread starter fast freddy
- Start date
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
Guy I shot with a couple weeks ago had that same setup, he was getting ~2" with surplus. I let him try some of my 168 handloads and he shot a little over 1". Unless you're expecting benchrest-type groups I think you'll be very happy with it.
Guy I shot with a couple weeks ago had that same setup, he was getting ~2" with surplus. I let him try some of my 168 handloads and he shot a little over 1". Unless you're expecting benchrest-type groups I think you'll be very happy with it.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
I would be happy with 1.5-2MOA out of it. The M1A is an exceptional battle rifle, don't expect it to be a precision rig.
Kirk R
I would be happy with 1.5-2MOA out of it. The M1A is an exceptional battle rifle, don't expect it to be a precision rig.
Kirk R
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
1-2" is what i was thinking, somewhere along the lines of an FAL or HK91. just trying to make sure i wasnt way off track.
1-2" is what i was thinking, somewhere along the lines of an FAL or HK91. just trying to make sure i wasnt way off track.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
They are generally more accurate the the FAL or HK 91. You should get 1-2" 5 shot 100 yard groups with Federal 168 grain SMK match ammo or the equivilent hand loads. 2-3" with good surplus like Portugese.
They are generally more accurate the the FAL or HK 91. You should get 1-2" 5 shot 100 yard groups with Federal 168 grain SMK match ammo or the equivilent hand loads. 2-3" with good surplus like Portugese.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my experience they're a 2-3MOA rifle. I've never been able to get one down to 1MOA through accurizing and match ammo.
</div></div>
maybe thats just 2-3moa shooter?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my experience they're a 2-3MOA rifle. I've never been able to get one down to 1MOA through accurizing and match ammo.
</div></div>
maybe thats just 2-3moa shooter?
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
Dogtown is a very experienced long range shooter who also happens to have deployed with the M14 operationally.
A 2-3 MOA shooter he is definitely not.
Dogtown is a very experienced long range shooter who also happens to have deployed with the M14 operationally.
A 2-3 MOA shooter he is definitely not.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dogtown is a very experienced long range shooter who also happens to have deployed with the M14 operationally.
A 2-3 MOA shooter he is definitely not. </div></div>
Just goes to show, you never know who is on the other end of the keyboard, or what type of experience he has.....
Kirk R
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dogtown is a very experienced long range shooter who also happens to have deployed with the M14 operationally.
A 2-3 MOA shooter he is definitely not. </div></div>
Just goes to show, you never know who is on the other end of the keyboard, or what type of experience he has.....
Kirk R
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
You're not gonna get bolt rifle accuracy out of it. However, most of your M1A's will group 1 1/2-2 MOA with mil-surp ammo. I carry a Sage stocked Springer M1A built almost entirely outta USGI parts on duty. With the USGI barrel (standard USGI chrome-line H&R) it'll easy shoot inside of 2 MOA with irons or better shooting Lithuanian M80 ball.
Here she is as she sits rigged for work......
You're not gonna get bolt rifle accuracy out of it. However, most of your M1A's will group 1 1/2-2 MOA with mil-surp ammo. I carry a Sage stocked Springer M1A built almost entirely outta USGI parts on duty. With the USGI barrel (standard USGI chrome-line H&R) it'll easy shoot inside of 2 MOA with irons or better shooting Lithuanian M80 ball.
Here she is as she sits rigged for work......
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
My M1-A was a 1" to 1.5" at 100yds with match ammo. I shot a 1.5" group with it at 200yds but on average it was a solid 1.2 or under on average with handloaded match ammo.
Buddy bought a new scout and his would not shoot 2" at 100yds. Mine would shoot better at 100 than his did at 50yds. He sent it back to the factory twice and it still sucked. Some are good shooters others aren't.
My M1-A was a 1" to 1.5" at 100yds with match ammo. I shot a 1.5" group with it at 200yds but on average it was a solid 1.2 or under on average with handloaded match ammo.
Buddy bought a new scout and his would not shoot 2" at 100yds. Mine would shoot better at 100 than his did at 50yds. He sent it back to the factory twice and it still sucked. Some are good shooters others aren't.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast freddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just sent off a bunch of money for a M1A scout squad model in a sage stock.
so what kind of accuracy should i expect out of this rifle? </div></div>
MOA accuracy is not out of the question.
I recommend a real nice trigger job (SEI's M14/M21A5 C-IED 4.5 lb MAX-PAK Trigger Upgrade) and quality ammo up to 168 grain.
Not your basic Scout in a SAGE, but this MK14 SEI is a sub MOA performer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast freddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just sent off a bunch of money for a M1A scout squad model in a sage stock.
so what kind of accuracy should i expect out of this rifle? </div></div>
MOA accuracy is not out of the question.
I recommend a real nice trigger job (SEI's M14/M21A5 C-IED 4.5 lb MAX-PAK Trigger Upgrade) and quality ammo up to 168 grain.
Not your basic Scout in a SAGE, but this MK14 SEI is a sub MOA performer.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
FWIW, I was talking specifically about an <span style="font-weight: bold">M1A Scout and an M14 in a Sage stock - the focus of the OP.</span> From my direct experience, they shot 2-3MOA overall. However, I have shot 1.5MOA M1As, but they were full length 22" custom barrels, glass bedded, tuned triggers, etc competition rifles.
FWIW, I was talking specifically about an <span style="font-weight: bold">M1A Scout and an M14 in a Sage stock - the focus of the OP.</span> From my direct experience, they shot 2-3MOA overall. However, I have shot 1.5MOA M1As, but they were full length 22" custom barrels, glass bedded, tuned triggers, etc competition rifles.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
Two USMC 8541 Snipers and myself shot stock M1A1 scout with a scope (not in a Sage stock) with Fed Match, South African and other surplus ammunition, 2-3 moa was the best we could get out of it, depending on which ammunition was fed to it, some surplus ammo was worse. We checked and tighten everything so no loose gas plug or screws.
Two USMC 8541 Snipers and myself shot stock M1A1 scout with a scope (not in a Sage stock) with Fed Match, South African and other surplus ammunition, 2-3 moa was the best we could get out of it, depending on which ammunition was fed to it, some surplus ammo was worse. We checked and tighten everything so no loose gas plug or screws.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
A guy at a gunshop told me that he could shoot 1/2 moa all day with irons with an out of the box Springy loaded model. Then he started spouting off different headspaceing numbers to sound smart or something. I entertained him the whole time and I kept saying things like "really? 5-shots into a 1/2" @ 100yards wow, you must be a HELL of a shot."
I should have went and got the manager and said, "This guy is flat out LYING about the capabilities of this rifle to sell it."
I bought a Scout Squad knowing the capabilities of it. It was fun to shoot but I couldn't get less than 2" groups with handloads. It was also my first attempts at really trying to group with iron sights. I thought I was doing pretty good just hitting a 11"x8" piece of paper @ 200 yards in a snow storm one day.
Main thing for the Rec-shooter, The iron sights are fun and the rifle is fun to shoot.
A guy at a gunshop told me that he could shoot 1/2 moa all day with irons with an out of the box Springy loaded model. Then he started spouting off different headspaceing numbers to sound smart or something. I entertained him the whole time and I kept saying things like "really? 5-shots into a 1/2" @ 100yards wow, you must be a HELL of a shot."
I should have went and got the manager and said, "This guy is flat out LYING about the capabilities of this rifle to sell it."
I bought a Scout Squad knowing the capabilities of it. It was fun to shoot but I couldn't get less than 2" groups with handloads. It was also my first attempts at really trying to group with iron sights. I thought I was doing pretty good just hitting a 11"x8" piece of paper @ 200 yards in a snow storm one day.
Main thing for the Rec-shooter, The iron sights are fun and the rifle is fun to shoot.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
My former scout-squad in a vltor mod-stock was hitting right around 1.5 - 2 MOA with surplus ammo. Nothing too fancy done to it. I did get a 1 MOA 5-shot group @ 300 yards once, but that was the best it did.
My former scout-squad in a vltor mod-stock was hitting right around 1.5 - 2 MOA with surplus ammo. Nothing too fancy done to it. I did get a 1 MOA 5-shot group @ 300 yards once, but that was the best it did.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
Do not expect precision rifle accuracy. My M1A NM was a 1-1.5 rifle and this is with FGMM and handloads. With that being said I would expect 2-3 MOA from a Scout.
Do not expect precision rifle accuracy. My M1A NM was a 1-1.5 rifle and this is with FGMM and handloads. With that being said I would expect 2-3 MOA from a Scout.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
If you do all the right stuff with good parts (good receiver,Krieger barrel,NM gas system mods,flash hider ream,spring guide and properly bed it) you can get them to do 1" @ 100. It's a lot of tweaking to get them to run at this level and it does not seem to last long. A skim bed is likely around 1000 rounds.
My M1A is a rack grade Springfield (all GI parts) with the NM mods bedded in a McMillian stock. Properly bedded it shoots 2 1/2" @100 but it's because it has an original Winchester 1964 GI chrome lined barrel. It's great for what it's for.
I have a M1 Garand with a Krieger tube in .308 and its a hammer.
If you want an accurate M1 or M1A start with a quality barrel and then build around it IMHO.
If you do all the right stuff with good parts (good receiver,Krieger barrel,NM gas system mods,flash hider ream,spring guide and properly bed it) you can get them to do 1" @ 100. It's a lot of tweaking to get them to run at this level and it does not seem to last long. A skim bed is likely around 1000 rounds.
My M1A is a rack grade Springfield (all GI parts) with the NM mods bedded in a McMillian stock. Properly bedded it shoots 2 1/2" @100 but it's because it has an original Winchester 1964 GI chrome lined barrel. It's great for what it's for.
I have a M1 Garand with a Krieger tube in .308 and its a hammer.
If you want an accurate M1 or M1A start with a quality barrel and then build around it IMHO.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
Had a scout that was sent out for all the goodies stock and accuracy work. Before it went it shot 2.5" with FGMM with a 10x scope. Spent a lot of money and it shot 1.5" with FGMM and with some handloader I got it to 1.25" could never break an inch.
Had a scout that was sent out for all the goodies stock and accuracy work. Before it went it shot 2.5" with FGMM with a 10x scope. Spent a lot of money and it shot 1.5" with FGMM and with some handloader I got it to 1.25" could never break an inch.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my experience they're a 2-3MOA rifle. I've never been able to get one down to 1MOA through accurizing and match ammo. </div></div>
That's about right and my bone stock M1A Scout wouldn't do any better than 2.5 MOA with Portuguese surplus.
Groups did tighten up a bit once all of the NM mods were completed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my experience they're a 2-3MOA rifle. I've never been able to get one down to 1MOA through accurizing and match ammo. </div></div>
That's about right and my bone stock M1A Scout wouldn't do any better than 2.5 MOA with Portuguese surplus.
Groups did tighten up a bit once all of the NM mods were completed.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
so what all do the national match mods do. the one im getting has a NM trigger done by springfeild armory, in a sage stock. does that make a difference?
so what all do the national match mods do. the one im getting has a NM trigger done by springfeild armory, in a sage stock. does that make a difference?
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast freddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so what all do the national match mods do. the one im getting has a NM trigger done by springfeild armory, in a sage stock. <span style="font-weight: bold">does that make a difference?</span> </div></div>
The SAGE EBR stock goes a step or two beyond NM mods and a quality trigger job is a must. I use SEI's MAX PACK for my triggers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast freddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so what all do the national match mods do. the one im getting has a NM trigger done by springfeild armory, in a sage stock. <span style="font-weight: bold">does that make a difference?</span> </div></div>
The SAGE EBR stock goes a step or two beyond NM mods and a quality trigger job is a must. I use SEI's MAX PACK for my triggers.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
I have shot thousands of rack stock M14s that we have installed in Sage stocks. Our rejection point is 1.5MOA. With that said, we have only had one rifle out of 5030 fail that criteria. Our average is .89 with two old Viet Nam vets shooting off of a bench on an indoor range. These are all 22 inch barrels. I have noticed that the 18s don't shoot as well and appear to be about 2 MOA guns. With that said, I have only had the chance to shoot three guns with an 18 inch barrel.
I have shot thousands of rack stock M14s that we have installed in Sage stocks. Our rejection point is 1.5MOA. With that said, we have only had one rifle out of 5030 fail that criteria. Our average is .89 with two old Viet Nam vets shooting off of a bench on an indoor range. These are all 22 inch barrels. I have noticed that the 18s don't shoot as well and appear to be about 2 MOA guns. With that said, I have only had the chance to shoot three guns with an 18 inch barrel.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EBRbuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have noticed that the 18s don't shoot as well and appear to be about 2 MOA guns. With that said, I have only had the chance to shoot three guns with an 18 inch barrel. </div></div>
You are welcome to shoot both of my MK14 SEI rifles the next time we meet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EBRbuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have noticed that the 18s don't shoot as well and appear to be about 2 MOA guns. With that said, I have only had the chance to shoot three guns with an 18 inch barrel. </div></div>
You are welcome to shoot both of my MK14 SEI rifles the next time we meet.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
If you really read the 1960s-era match tuning works, you will find that about half of the NM mods and specs are for reliability.
The accuracy mods are bedding, unitizing, and clocking/shimming the gas cylinder...and most importantly, the barrel itself.
Op rod bending, spring guide, gas piston and cylinder dimension specs, tightening the op rod guide to the barrel, and the free opening and closing of the op rod/bolt system at 45 degrees or whatever or less tilt, those are all reliability mods. Every M1A or Garand I ever worked on would open and close completely, dry of all lube, at about 30 degrees tilt.
Considered accuracy but they give their benefit from making sight indexing more precise and repeatable: tightening up the barrel and splines with everything else that goes on it, tightening up the aperture to windage base fit, the two versions of NM windage, and the hooded aperture or smaller and slightly oversized-rack non-hooded NM aperure.
I have no experience with the shorter barrel M1As, but what I'm hearing is opposite of what the benchresters and boltgunners find about shorter barrels being on average more accurate. Stiffer and less barrel whip is the operative theory.
If you really read the 1960s-era match tuning works, you will find that about half of the NM mods and specs are for reliability.
The accuracy mods are bedding, unitizing, and clocking/shimming the gas cylinder...and most importantly, the barrel itself.
Op rod bending, spring guide, gas piston and cylinder dimension specs, tightening the op rod guide to the barrel, and the free opening and closing of the op rod/bolt system at 45 degrees or whatever or less tilt, those are all reliability mods. Every M1A or Garand I ever worked on would open and close completely, dry of all lube, at about 30 degrees tilt.
Considered accuracy but they give their benefit from making sight indexing more precise and repeatable: tightening up the barrel and splines with everything else that goes on it, tightening up the aperture to windage base fit, the two versions of NM windage, and the hooded aperture or smaller and slightly oversized-rack non-hooded NM aperure.
I have no experience with the shorter barrel M1As, but what I'm hearing is opposite of what the benchresters and boltgunners find about shorter barrels being on average more accurate. Stiffer and less barrel whip is the operative theory.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
With the SA 18" barrel you may also want to try shooting the 155gr Hornady Tap ammo. I have even shot 110gr Tap out of a rifle we built for Houston P.D. Swat - 2 four round groups at 100yds .202". Even suprised the heck out of me.
With the SA 18" barrel you may also want to try shooting the 155gr Hornady Tap ammo. I have even shot 110gr Tap out of a rifle we built for Houston P.D. Swat - 2 four round groups at 100yds .202". Even suprised the heck out of me.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
i get 2-4" groups with my socom 16 with irons, that rear peep is huge and the front sight post is very thick, not sure of the scouts sight. but with optics you should be able to get consistant at 2"
i get 2-4" groups with my socom 16 with irons, that rear peep is huge and the front sight post is very thick, not sure of the scouts sight. but with optics you should be able to get consistant at 2"
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you really read the 1960s-era match tuning works...</div></div>
Read this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you really read the 1960s-era match tuning works...</div></div>
Read this.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
I was finally able to shoot an M1A back about a month ago, my buddy has a loaded model that he has mounted a smallish Leupold scope on it. While it was nowhere near as accurate as my Savage, it was more than acceptible for what it is. I was able to make a first round hit on a piglet steel target at 500 yards, good enough for me. This was using some handloads the guy next to us let us use as my buddies ammo was taken away by the RO for being steel cored and my ammo wouldn't chamber in his rifle.
I was finally able to shoot an M1A back about a month ago, my buddy has a loaded model that he has mounted a smallish Leupold scope on it. While it was nowhere near as accurate as my Savage, it was more than acceptible for what it is. I was able to make a first round hit on a piglet steel target at 500 yards, good enough for me. This was using some handloads the guy next to us let us use as my buddies ammo was taken away by the RO for being steel cored and my ammo wouldn't chamber in his rifle.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith Ent.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the SA 18" barrel you may also want to try shooting the 155gr Hornady Tap ammo. I have even shot 110gr Tap out of a rifle we built for Houston P.D. Swat - 2 four round groups at 100yds .202". Even suprised the heck out of me. </div></div>
My MK14 SEI with the chrome lined standard profile, 4 groove 1:10 ROT M118LR SEI barrel loves 155gr Hornady Tap ammo... very accurate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith Ent.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the SA 18" barrel you may also want to try shooting the 155gr Hornady Tap ammo. I have even shot 110gr Tap out of a rifle we built for Houston P.D. Swat - 2 four round groups at 100yds .202". Even suprised the heck out of me. </div></div>
My MK14 SEI with the chrome lined standard profile, 4 groove 1:10 ROT M118LR SEI barrel loves 155gr Hornady Tap ammo... very accurate.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith Ent.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">H20 Man, You ever need anything you let us know </div></div>
Roger that and thank you.
I am looking forward to having a 16" SEI M14 built on my last heel stamped Poly Tech
receiver right along side the 500 you are building for a certain U. S. Army combat unit
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith Ent.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">H20 Man, You ever need anything you let us know </div></div>
Roger that and thank you.
I am looking forward to having a 16" SEI M14 built on my last heel stamped Poly Tech
receiver right along side the 500 you are building for a certain U. S. Army combat unit
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
I got my M1A in 77 as a standard grade. I was shooting for the Guard at the time and Gene Barnett (Barnett barrels, he was working as an armor for the Pistol Van at the Wilson matches at the time) turned it into a Super Match.
It shoots. Still shoots today (though I've shot out a couple barrels over the years).
Get the Military's Match Rifle Building guide to see how they are put together.
THEY CAN BE MADE TO SHOOT fairly reasonably.
I got my M1A in 77 as a standard grade. I was shooting for the Guard at the time and Gene Barnett (Barnett barrels, he was working as an armor for the Pistol Van at the Wilson matches at the time) turned it into a Super Match.
It shoots. Still shoots today (though I've shot out a couple barrels over the years).
Get the Military's Match Rifle Building guide to see how they are put together.
THEY CAN BE MADE TO SHOOT fairly reasonably.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
I'm a little late to the show but here's how well <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-style: italic">IT</span> </span></span>shoots...
Even though I can't hold 'em like I used to.
Here's my Scout with a McMillan stock. It was accurized down in Quantico two years ago by an old Team mate of mine.
Groups follow. All shot with FGMM @ 300 meters out of a cradle in the test shed. It prefers the 175gr over 168's.
I'm a little late to the show but here's how well <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-style: italic">IT</span> </span></span>shoots...
Even though I can't hold 'em like I used to.
Here's my Scout with a McMillan stock. It was accurized down in Quantico two years ago by an old Team mate of mine.
Groups follow. All shot with FGMM @ 300 meters out of a cradle in the test shed. It prefers the 175gr over 168's.
Re: M1A ACCURACY EXPECTATION?
I've had just about everything done to mine and can't get it down below 1.75 MOA, I think it looks good but its a little heavy for a boat oar.
I've had just about everything done to mine and can't get it down below 1.75 MOA, I think it looks good but its a little heavy for a boat oar.
