M1A Input Needed

[Doyle231]

I've made the Springfield Loaded M1A that I purchased nearly 20 years ago my latest project. So far, I've made the following accurizing upgrades: 4.5-5lb NM trigger job, shimmed gas cylinder, NM ferrule and handguard mods and NM op rod spring guide. Rifle is sitting in a Boyd's walnut stock, unbedded but with clearance for the gas cylinder and op rod. Front band is flush/square to the ferrule with proper draw contact on the lip of the band.

(Benchrest and bagged at 100yds.)

The above photo is representative of the groups I'm getting with 155gr. ELD-M handloads with H4895. Federal GM308M is shooting just as tight or even a little better. The outlier in the 10 ring was all me and on call. There are 9 in the group below. Zero was a little off after cleaning the carbon out of the piston and cylinder plug.

For those familiar with these rifles, how much of an improvement can or should I expect after bedding? I'm also likely going to upgrade to a NM piston. Is there any advantage to going with a unitized front band and gas cylinder as opposed to just shimming? If so, is welded or screwed and glued best or does it matter? I have a feeling my journey down the rabbit hole may just be beginning!

Thanks in advance!

 

[pmclaine]

Im not really familiar with them, only an owner since January or so.

Ive made a few tongue in cheek entries in the vintage section regarding "People told me I needed to do this to my M1A....." Ive included pics and there are experienced guys that give feedback. All of those posts should be in the first 2-4 pages of the vintage section. Ill go find the links if you cant.

My M1A desire was for the closest thing to an "issue" rifle.

I had been looking for awhile to get an SAInc with mostly GI parts and I scored one from 1993.

My accuracy expectation was same as the mil standard - 4 MOA.

Like the mil and fans agree they shoot much better.

Doing nothing I think my rifle is 2MOA.

I am very pleased with that.

It typically costs a lot of money to get mine shooting as good as it does - me being its weak link - it would probably shoot better in the hands of a master. Using FGMM 168 I mostly hold the 10 ring on a mil 100 yard target and many are X.

Your rifle will never be a sniper rifle and the day you get it shooting to its best all those stock mods are degrading and it will be settling back to its average needing a refresh of money, every once in awhile to get it again shooting to its absolute highest potential.

Nothing wrong with spending or making all those mods but just be aware some guy with skills equal to yours shooting a bare stock AR of reasonable quality will still probably be able to shoot a tighter group.

Love your M1A for what it is.....I do.

 

[pmclaine]

I like to polish my trophys....

Something is wrong with my M1A

When I first bought it everyone was telling me "You have to buy X". X ranged from "Coast Guard Compensators", Unitized gas cylinders "Make sure its the USMC style", National Match piston, National Match sights, "Make sure you do a tilt test, it will never shoot if anything is rubbing". I kind...

www.snipershide.com

I was wrong....My M1A needed something to shoot better.

I needed to replace the sight spring cover because the drum was free wheeling losing zero. Took it to the range to get it back in service.... Used FGMM 168s I bought off a coworker abandoning the 7.62 flavor for something in the 6.5 category....sad. Ammo struck me as weird - no primer...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Douglas-001]

I have made every modification to my M1A's in a effort to get them to shoot a little better. The mods do help. Bedding will help. The real trick is holding on to that rifle really tight. The ammo always helps but I worked up a load that shot just as well as any FGMM or Hornady, or BHA so that's what I used (still do) in competition. After you bed the rifle, do not take it out of the stock until you bed it again. And you will if you want to keep it competitive, if that's what you're after. My rifles have taken me halfway thru my competitive shooting and they performed very well so long as I did my part. (They just got too expensive to shoot when other bills rolled in..and I was shooting a lot) A closer look at your target tells me that the group is pretty good. (I thought it was 7 rds at first) Had the group been centered up, the score would have been 99 with a possibly shallow 9. Always hold for X. If that is from iron sights you're doing fine. Make sure the sights are tight and not moving or dropping on you. The M14 forum is replete with all kinds of info and help as you work your way thru the rabbit hole. Lastly, I can't remember how many times other competitors would look with disdain as I would sling up with one of my M1A's while they would tell me how their mouse gun will shoot inside my rifle all day. My smug meter would be in the red zone as I walked off the firing line with the higher score and a fistfull of X's....always good to see members working out with the classic rifles! Good luck and good shooting!

Doug

P.S. If the stock has holes in the butt under the hinge plate, put lead weights in there. Tremendous help in mitigating recoil in all positions and really helps offhand if the wind is blowing. Worst case scenario is you can now use the rifle butt to crush the skull of some mouse gun shooter who is complaining about your brass landing on him. Tough shit Kyle!

 

[Mudmarine]

I've made the Springfield Loaded M1A that I purchased nearly 20 years ago my latest project. So far, I've made the following accurizing upgrades: 4.5-5lb NM trigger job, shimmed gas cylinder, NM ferrule and handguard mods and NM op rod spring guide. Rifle is sitting in a Boyd's walnut stock, unbedded but with clearance for the gas cylinder and op rod. Front band is flush/square to the ferrule with proper draw contact on the lip of the band.

I use my M1a mostly for LR service rifle. I have NM rear sights with a smaller peep diameter and a thinner front sight post. As for how small to go, that depends on how young your eyes are.

Bedding the rifle correctly and unitizing the gas system are a must. I prefer the weld method, but both are good to go if done correctly.

I’m honestly not sure how much effect a NM gas cylinder has on the end product. As long as the piston goes “clunk“ each way.....

As others have noted, adding lead to the stock is a plus, and using a quality sling with steal frogs attached to a solid sling loop in the front is important. If your not bending your brass sling frogs, your sling is not tight enough. Or if your support arm isn’t swelling up due to non venous blood return, your sling is too loose. Or, if your elbows aren’t bleeding you don’t have a solid shooting position. Or, if those fire-ants your laying in are making you itch, Charlie don’t care. Or, if your face isn’t covered in axle grease after a string of fire, you don’t have enough lube on the oprod.

I feed mine a clone of M118LR using sierra 175’s or bergers and imr 4895. It stays supersonic at 1000, but just barely depending on ambient temperature. My rifle can’t tell the difference between brands.

Look for some books by Walt Kuleck and Jerry Kunhausen. The Kunhausen book in particular is just the ticket for the rabbit hole ride you want to go on. I know you can get them from Fulton Armory if not amazon.

 

[smoothy8500]

If you bed the stock, then a unitized cylinder is necessary for the front band/barrel orientation to stay constant. Either welded or screw/glue is fine. No need for the NM grooved piston unless you are shooting a steady diet of stiff handloads/heavy projectiles.

Springfield Armory used to do bedding/NM mods, not sure if they still do. Other options are Ted Brown Shooter's Den, Jon Wolfe, LRB, or Fulton Armory (real expensive). If you have done some DIY bedding on a bolt action, it's a little more complicated with additional steps...But quite doable.

 

[pmclaine]

@Doyle231

Pics of this beast because everyone likes pictures of M1As.......well I do anyway.

 

[pmclaine]

@Douglas-001 @Mudmarine @smoothy8500

What do you run for elevation drums on your M1As - yards or meters.

Guessing it doesnt really matter as its not likely the designations will line up correctly either way.

Im just going to rotate to the lowest setting and paint than for each further distance add more paint.

 

[smoothy8500]

Guessing it doesnt really matter as its not likely the designations will line up correctly either way.

Funny how people get wrapped up over this. Both Garand and M drums have the same number of "clicks". For example, each one has 8 "clicks" between the 4 and 6 lines. The difference is in the distance between the sight radius. The M14 has a shorter distance to the FS, which changes the elevation angle as the rear sight goes up with each click.

Regardless, I go off of my dope chart and count clicks for each target distance. My distances actually line up pretty close, within a click or two of the drum.

 

[pmclaine]

Funny how people get wrapped up over this. Both Garand and M drums have the same number of "clicks". For example, each one has 8 "clicks" between the 4 and 6 lines. The difference is in the distance between the sight radius. The M14 has a shorter distance to the FS, which changes the elevation angle as the rear sight goes up with each click.

Regardless, I go off of my dope chart and count clicks for each target distance. My distances actually line up pretty close, within a click or two of the drum.

Thats an awesome light bulb going off on reader explanation!

Didnt understand how it would matter because there is no change to the "milling" the drum teeth engage.....sight radius explains how the settings could be matched up!

Wow interesting to know some thought went into the position of the FS.

Ive seen those glue on "sight discs" would never consider using one but guess someone could mil one to customize a BDC drum.

Ill just use my paint pen.

Coming from an 03 Im used to the ladder markings being useless and relying on my OHare micrometer.

 

[smoothy8500]

OHare micrometer

Now there's a tool we don't see very often!

 

[Mudmarine]

Funny how people get wrapped up over this. Both Garand and M drums have the same number of "clicks". For example, each one has 8 "clicks" between the 4 and 6 lines. The difference is in the distance between the sight radius. The M14 has a shorter distance to the FS, which changes the elevation angle as the rear sight goes up with each click.

Regardless, I go off of my dope chart and count clicks for each target distance. My distances actually line up pretty close, within a click or two of the drum.

Funny that the drum distances thing is even mentioned. I was taught to just memorize click counts for each range. It never occurred to me to even try correlating my click counts to the drum distance.

I don’t have my notes handy, but on my rifle with the rear sight bottomed out, I think I would come up 42 clicks and be on paper at 1000. My 100 yard zero was a couple clicks up from bottomed out and tuned by adjusting the front sight height. All my clicks were based off of a bottomed out rear sight. No adjustable zero-stop feature came on my rifle.

 

[pmclaine]

My Garand and M1A are both about 8 clicks from bottom to zero at 100 yards.

I've not filed or messed with the front sight.

Doubtful I'll ever shoot either at 1000 so not likely I'll need those lost "clicks".

I did roll the drum to match the 1 mark with my zero just to satisfy my anal tendencies.

The paint will be what matters though. With my eyes it was a nightmare trying to read the 1.

 

[frankxtc]

Not sure if this will be helpful, but here goes:
Much depends on your goals - how accurate does your M1A need to be - Service Rifle or casual targets?
There are some things beyond DIY that only a well equipped shop can do for you, unless your other hobby includes a machine shop.
Seems like a million years ago I sent my generic M1A to Fulton Armory for the “Peerless” upgrade. Shot it in Service Rifle for a year or two. Fulton did a nice job of “blueprinting” the rifle but did nothing exotic to it.
If I had known about Kuhnausen’s book at the time, could have done much of it myself.
McMillan fiberglass stock provided by Fulton weighs a ton - very helpful.
I added a Les Tam sling, it is outstanding.
Subsequently sent the Fulton Peerless to Clint Fowler, who did things to it I could never have done myself - double lugs, fully floated the front end, adjustable gas plug. Shoots better than I can hold. I was usually the only old geezer on the line with an M1A!
So how much accuracy do you need?

 

[Doyle231]

I have made every modification to my M1A's in a effort to get them to shoot a little better. The mods do help. Bedding will help. The real trick is holding on to that rifle really tight. The ammo always helps but I worked up a load that shot just as well as any FGMM or Hornady, or BHA so that's what I used (still do) in competition. After you bed the rifle, do not take it out of the stock until you bed it again. And you will if you want to keep it competitive, if that's what you're after. My rifles have taken me halfway thru my competitive shooting and they performed very well so long as I did my part. (They just got too expensive to shoot when other bills rolled in..and I was shooting a lot) A closer look at your target tells me that the group is pretty good. (I thought it was 7 rds at first) Had the group been centered up, the score would have been 99 with a possibly shallow 9. Always hold for X. If that is from iron sights you're doing fine. Make sure the sights are tight and not moving or dropping on you. The M14 forum is replete with all kinds of info and help as you work your way thru the rabbit hole. Lastly, I can't remember how many times other competitors would look with disdain as I would sling up with one of my M1A's while they would tell me how their mouse gun will shoot inside my rifle all day. My smug meter would be in the red zone as I walked off the firing line with the higher score and a fistfull of X's....always good to see members working out with the classic rifles! Good luck and good shooting!

Doug

P.S. If the stock has holes in the butt under the hinge plate, put lead weights in there. Tremendous help in mitigating recoil in all positions and really helps offhand if the wind is blowing. Worst case scenario is you can now use the rifle butt to crush the skull of some mouse gun shooter who is complaining about your brass landing on him. Tough shit Kyle!

Thanks for the feedback, it's greatly appreciated! The group in the picture is with irons, NM front and GI rear. I've been shooting with a 6 O'clock hold. I've been considering trying a sub 6 hold based on the suggestions in Jim Owen's materials. Have you had better luck with a center hold? I can definitely appreciate what you're saying about holding the rifle tight, even from the bench.

Learning to drive these rifles is a lot a zen marksmanship experience in it's purest form for me. Nearly all of my other shooting activities are work related, this is just for fun and I'm having a blast!! I eventually hope to compete in service rifle matches.

 

[Doyle231]

Not sure if this will be helpful, but here goes:
Much depends on your goals - how accurate does your M1A need to be - Service Rifle or casual targets?
There are some things beyond DIY that only a well equipped shop can do for you, unless your other hobby includes a machine shop.
Seems like a million years ago I sent my generic M1A to Fulton Armory for the “Peerless” upgrade. Shot it in Service Rifle for a year or two. Fulton did a nice job of “blueprinting” the rifle but did nothing exotic to it.
If I had known about Kuhnausen’s book at the time, could have done much of it myself.
McMillan fiberglass stock provided by Fulton weighs a ton - very helpful.
I added a Les Tam sling, it is outstanding.
Subsequently sent the Fulton Peerless to Clint Fowler, who did things to it I could never have done myself - double lugs, fully floated the front end, adjustable gas plug. Shoots better than I can hold. I was usually the only old geezer on the line with an M1A!
So how much accuracy do you need?

Realistically, I'd like to be able to hold 1 to 1.5 MOA with iron sights consistently from a supported position, i.e., bechched and bagged. Offhand, I'd be tickled with keeping everything in or very near the black but that in my opinion is more of a function of form, fundamentals and wind reading as opposed to rifle upgrades. Starting out with the smallest dispersion from a fully supported position certainly helps though.
I plan on starting into some informal service rifle matches this spring.

That's a fantastic group at 300 by the way! It's hard for me to imagine being able to shoot much tighter than that with iron sights!

 

[Doyle231]

@Doyle231

Pics of this beast because everyone likes pictures of M1As.......well I do anyway.

I'll have some pics up soon, stay tuned!

 

[Doyle231]

I use my M1a mostly for LR service rifle. I have NM rear sights with a smaller peep diameter and a thinner front sight post. As for how small to go, that depends on how young your eyes are.

Bedding the rifle correctly and unitizing the gas system are a must. I prefer the weld method, but both are good to go if done correctly.

I’m honestly not sure how much effect a NM gas cylinder has on the end product. As long as the piston goes “clunk“ each way.....

As others have noted, adding lead to the stock is a plus, and using a quality sling with steal frogs attached to a solid sling loop in the front is important. If your not bending your brass sling frogs, your sling is not tight enough. Or if your support arm isn’t swelling up due to non venous blood return, your sling is too loose. Or, if your elbows aren’t bleeding you don’t have a solid shooting position. Or, if those fire-ants your laying in are making you itch, Charlie don’t care. Or, if your face isn’t covered in axle grease after a string of fire, you don’t have enough lube on the oprod.

I feed mine a clone of M118LR using sierra 175’s or bergers and imr 4895. It stays supersonic at 1000, but just barely depending on ambient temperature. My rifle can’t tell the difference between brands.

Look for some books by Walt Kuleck and Jerry Kunhausen. The Kunhausen book in particular is just the ticket for the rabbit hole ride you want to go on. I know you can get them from Fulton Armory if not amazon.

I've got all of the books you mentioned plus all of Jim Owen's materials. I'm far enough down the rabbit hole now I'm not sure I can see the light anymore!

Part of what I guess I'm getting at is considering the upgrades I've already done and plan to do (bedding), how much tighter would one expect an out of the box National Match or Super Match shoot on comparison? I can't help but think that a heavy profile Douglas, Krieger or Hart match barrel and chamber wouldn't improve things.

 

[M1Alaska]

Back when I could see the sights. Shot on a 200yd SR target 3" X ring, 7" 10 ring. Bedded Med HV barrel. Knew 1 or 2 guys that could shoot the same group at 600 with a double lug. The CMP are surplus "pull down" cant remember which barrel they liked 4 or 6 groove as it has a harder jacket than SEI and shot better in some barrels. Have to run glass now. If possible see if you can shoot a match rifle just to see if your groups are better. If not spend the money on ammo burn out the barrel then when re-barreling have all the enhancements done.

 

[Douglas-001]

I would write down number of clicks in my dope book for each stage. Also ran a rear hooded peep sight that rotates to let you split elevation. I used a white paint pen to color the lines on the knobs and the windage marks as well. Use a 6 o'clock hold on the target and trust the front sight which was heavily blackened with soot from a burning plastic spoon. If you do the spoon trick, do it outside, away from any carpet, away from any exposed flesh. That shit burns and really sticks to whatever it touches. How I know is not important, just trust me on this one.... Go shoot the shit out of the rifle and then as your skill and confidence increases, consider all or some upgrades.

 

[Doyle231]

Photos as promised!

As you can see by the position of the front sight, my barrel is clocked a little off!

 

[smoothy8500]

As you can see by the position of the front sight, my barrel is clocked a little off!

Meh, mine is too. However, when I'm slung up and looking through the rear sight I can't tell how crooked it is...

 

[pmclaine]

I would write down number of clicks in my dope book for each stage. Also ran a rear hooded peep sight that rotates to let you split elevation. I used a white paint pen to color the lines on the knobs and the windage marks as well. Use a 6 o'clock hold on the target and trust the front sight which was heavily blackened with soot from a burning plastic spoon. If you do the spoon trick, do it outside, away from any carpet, away from any exposed flesh. That shit burns and really sticks to whatever it touches. How I know is not important, just trust me on this one.... Go shoot the shit out of the rifle and then as your skill and confidence increases, consider all or some upgrades.

Would love to get hold of a carbide lamp. The one Ray Vin used to make looks sweet.

Guessing they become a little maintenance nightmare with the infrequency I would use one.

Looking though.

Neat piece of gear.

 

[pmclaine]

Photos as promised!
View attachment 7465067View attachment 7465072View attachment 7465073
As you can see by the position of the front sight, my barrel is clocked a little off!

Yikes on the front sight!

Good on you though for going that route and centering the rear.

My M1A is pretty well centered front and rear.

When I got my Garand I had to look up the formula for sight radius, try to remember if "left moves right" or "right moves left" or perhaps it is "shot moves with sight", than I used the tail of my micrometer to move the FS the small amount needed to get the right correction.

Little bit easier to square windage on one of these than doing it on a no reference Redfield scope base and moving a centered scope to align with the scope base by trial and error, loosening rear screws on one side than tightening the other.

 

[pmclaine]

Look what you have me trying to spend my hard earned money on.......

WATERS RIFLEMAN CALCIUM CARBIDE SIGHT SMOKER BLACKENER

WATERS RIFLEMAN Super Smoker Sight Smoker. Ray-Vin patent calcium carbide burner smoker to blacken rifle and pistol sights.

www.watersrifleman.com

 

[smoothy8500]

Here’s my high dollar super smoker. All brass construction with a Milsurp shooting theme...A fired 308 , oily cleaning patches, and a 45ACP cap to snuff it out and keep my range bag nice and clean.

 

[Doyle231]

Look what you have me trying to spend my hard earned money on.......

WATERS RIFLEMAN CALCIUM CARBIDE SIGHT SMOKER BLACKENER

WATERS RIFLEMAN Super Smoker Sight Smoker. Ray-Vin patent calcium carbide burner smoker to blacken rifle and pistol sights.

www.watersrifleman.com

Looks like I'll be ordering one as well, maybe we should get a group buy going in the PX!

 

[pmclaine]

Looks like I'll be ordering one as well, maybe we should get a group buy going in the PX!

Seller is in Aus.

Lots of communication, very receptive.

Way to order is via his home page contact link.

With shipping, one tool and a repair kit I was $90 or so US.

 

[pmclaine]

Holy fast shipping Batman!

New Super Smoker next to my old candle smoker.....

From Aus in rapid time.

 

[smoothy8500]

Nice! The benefit of the super smoker over candles, burning spoon, etc, is that it can be used to "touch-up" the FS on the firing line in breezy conditions vs the other impromptu sight smokers.

 

[pmclaine]

Nice! The benefit of the super smoker over candles, burning spoon, etc, is that it can be used to "touch-up" the FS on the firing line in breezy conditions vs the other impromptu sight smokers.

And not getting molten spoon dripped on your pants, rifle or worse, hand steadying the rifle.

Pea carbide should arrive this week from an EBay seller.

 

[Harleystoo]

A grooved gas piston is for shooting rds. with bullets 168 gr. and heavier. If your rear sights are spinning, tighten the inner nut on the windage knob while pushing in on the pinion.
And yes, the M14 is a good sniper rifle.