I just bought an M1A and love it. However I was out at the range with it the second time and I was using the iron sights slowly squeezing the trigger. After the rifle fired the action cycled and without me pulling the trigger a second time the rifle fired another shot. Being a brand new rifle I dont know how the sear could be slipping I also thought maybe since the trigger was being squeezed the recoil of the first round reset the trigger and when the rifle came to rest it fired again. The rifle also did this later on during the same firing session. Any ideas would be much appriciatated thanks.
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M1A Possible Sear Slipping
- Thread starter pdt1793db
- Start date
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Sounds like maybe your trigger or your technique and the gun is just bouncing off your finger from recoil.
When I bought my NM M14 it would fire full auto at times for no apparent reason. It even did it during a match and a SEAL armorer built me a new trigger.
There's a section of the trigger group that if you file a bit too much off you could end up with that problem. Is the gun new and who makes it?
Sounds like maybe your trigger or your technique and the gun is just bouncing off your finger from recoil.
When I bought my NM M14 it would fire full auto at times for no apparent reason. It even did it during a match and a SEAL armorer built me a new trigger.
There's a section of the trigger group that if you file a bit too much off you could end up with that problem. Is the gun new and who makes it?
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Well they screwed up my trigger so its not too much of a stretch that they didn't do it to yours. Luckily I was at a match and got a freebe and didn't have to send it back. I still have that bad trigger group.
1st be sure its not your shooting technique and that you're following through with your trigger pull. It's more prone to happen when you hold the weapon too lightly like when you're shooting from a rest. Their match triggers are not the best and are overly sensitive IMO. The trigger built for me out of the back of an armorers van put the SA trigger to shame.
All that said...you have a fine weapon there.
Well they screwed up my trigger so its not too much of a stretch that they didn't do it to yours. Luckily I was at a match and got a freebe and didn't have to send it back. I still have that bad trigger group.
1st be sure its not your shooting technique and that you're following through with your trigger pull. It's more prone to happen when you hold the weapon too lightly like when you're shooting from a rest. Their match triggers are not the best and are overly sensitive IMO. The trigger built for me out of the back of an armorers van put the SA trigger to shame.
All that said...you have a fine weapon there.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
It might be how I was shooting it the first time I took it out I shot it prone resting on a ruck sack. The second time when these issues happened I was trying to sight it in from a bench rest still using the ruck sack for supporting the forarm. I dont want to send it to springfield because then I wont have it for a long time and no telling what will have happened to it when I get it back. I have thought about saying screw it and buying a trigger group from Fulton Armory or something.
It might be how I was shooting it the first time I took it out I shot it prone resting on a ruck sack. The second time when these issues happened I was trying to sight it in from a bench rest still using the ruck sack for supporting the forarm. I dont want to send it to springfield because then I wont have it for a long time and no telling what will have happened to it when I get it back. I have thought about saying screw it and buying a trigger group from Fulton Armory or something.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdt1793db</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The second time when these issues happened I was trying to sight it in from a bench rest still using the ruck sack for supporting the forarm. </div></div>
There you go. Try your technique 1st and you may be OK. Be sure to follow through. It's prone to happen with their triggers if your trigger pull is too slow or soft. Once you get some trigger time with it you may find that you like it. My factory trigger felt great but in my case it got expensive losing 20 rounds in under 2 seconds. It was cool though...its true what they say about muzzle climb firing auto with .308 and I'm surprised I didn't shoot down any airplanes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdt1793db</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The second time when these issues happened I was trying to sight it in from a bench rest still using the ruck sack for supporting the forarm. </div></div>
There you go. Try your technique 1st and you may be OK. Be sure to follow through. It's prone to happen with their triggers if your trigger pull is too slow or soft. Once you get some trigger time with it you may find that you like it. My factory trigger felt great but in my case it got expensive losing 20 rounds in under 2 seconds. It was cool though...its true what they say about muzzle climb firing auto with .308 and I'm surprised I didn't shoot down any airplanes.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
The muzzle climb with cool but surprising just two rounds going off had a decent muzzle climb the whole mag would be crazy. Im probable use to pulling the 2.5 pound trigger on my bolt gun and am taking up the first stage then very softy pressing through the second stage. This is mainly when its happening. I guess I just need to develope a different trigger technique.
The muzzle climb with cool but surprising just two rounds going off had a decent muzzle climb the whole mag would be crazy. Im probable use to pulling the 2.5 pound trigger on my bolt gun and am taking up the first stage then very softy pressing through the second stage. This is mainly when its happening. I guess I just need to develope a different trigger technique.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
You are probably riding the trigger in recoil. However, match tuned M1-A/M-14 triggers have been know to allow 'doubles' or 'triples' once they become worn. This is easily fixed with a piece of 800 grit wet or dry sand paper.
Find a highpower shooter old enough to have used an M1-A in competition or an armor. They will show you how to fix it pronto.
Go luck
Jerry
You are probably riding the trigger in recoil. However, match tuned M1-A/M-14 triggers have been know to allow 'doubles' or 'triples' once they become worn. This is easily fixed with a piece of 800 grit wet or dry sand paper.
Find a highpower shooter old enough to have used an M1-A in competition or an armor. They will show you how to fix it pronto.
Go luck
Jerry
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Practice....keep a firm grip on the trigger through the recoil pulse. Once the rifle has settled, re-sight on the target, and release the trigger until the sear sets, then squeeze off another shot. There is no need to completely release the trigger during a string.
Best to get a highpower shooter how they do it in the rapid fire portion of an Across-the-course match.
Good luck
Jerry
Practice....keep a firm grip on the trigger through the recoil pulse. Once the rifle has settled, re-sight on the target, and release the trigger until the sear sets, then squeeze off another shot. There is no need to completely release the trigger during a string.
Best to get a highpower shooter how they do it in the rapid fire portion of an Across-the-course match.
Good luck
Jerry
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
It's called 'doubling', and is a clear symptom of Garand and M14/M1A trigger systems.
The trigger is not intended to be operated in a slow and gingerly fashion, but rather to be pulled through the disengagement region in a smooth and deliberate fashion. It's a service rifle design, and not a target rifle design. The idea is to hit the rearward travel limit.
The design is such that if your finger 'hovers' in the disengagement region, the sear cannot reengage the hammer hooks.
The confirmation of this is that the phenomenon almost always ends with a second, and not a third, discharge; because the additional recoil usually disturbs the trigger finger away from the disengagement zone.
Yes, it's the gun.
They will all do it if you shoot them a particular way. Unless you like wasting very other round, don't shoot it that way.
Greg
It's called 'doubling', and is a clear symptom of Garand and M14/M1A trigger systems.
The trigger is not intended to be operated in a slow and gingerly fashion, but rather to be pulled through the disengagement region in a smooth and deliberate fashion. It's a service rifle design, and not a target rifle design. The idea is to hit the rearward travel limit.
The design is such that if your finger 'hovers' in the disengagement region, the sear cannot reengage the hammer hooks.
The confirmation of this is that the phenomenon almost always ends with a second, and not a third, discharge; because the additional recoil usually disturbs the trigger finger away from the disengagement zone.
Yes, it's the gun.
They will all do it if you shoot them a particular way. Unless you like wasting very other round, don't shoot it that way.
Greg
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's called 'doubling',
[snip]
The design is such that if your finger 'hovers' in the disengagement region, the sear cannot reengage the hammer hooks.
[snip]
Greg </div></div>
That happens ONLY if someone ****ed up the trigger job. The 2nd stage increase in trigger pull is performed by the safety sear. The *design* is for there to be some "overlap" between the trigger sear and the safety sear, so the trigger has to travel forward to release the hammer from the safety sear. Once forward, the trigger sear has PLENTY of engagement.
To have what Greg describes, the trigger job must be so botched as to have virtually no 2nd stage. I've seen it on another rifle but have never done it to any I've worked on.
The problem here is that without a careful examination of the trigger group, it can be impossible to distinguish between a trigger-induced doubling, and an accidental "bump fire" where the mechanical parts did everything they were supposed to do, but trigger technique allows the trigger to release forward and then get pressed again.
One clue of a botched trigger job is a very long first stage and a light 2nd stage. Getting to that point often involves excessive grinding of sear and/or hammer hooks to the point that the softer non-carburized metal is exposed, which = faster wear of the engagement surfaces. Rouging it up with fine sandpaper or emery cloth at that point is a temporary fix which can become dangerous as the surfaces wear smooth again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's called 'doubling',
[snip]
The design is such that if your finger 'hovers' in the disengagement region, the sear cannot reengage the hammer hooks.
[snip]
Greg </div></div>
That happens ONLY if someone ****ed up the trigger job. The 2nd stage increase in trigger pull is performed by the safety sear. The *design* is for there to be some "overlap" between the trigger sear and the safety sear, so the trigger has to travel forward to release the hammer from the safety sear. Once forward, the trigger sear has PLENTY of engagement.
To have what Greg describes, the trigger job must be so botched as to have virtually no 2nd stage. I've seen it on another rifle but have never done it to any I've worked on.
The problem here is that without a careful examination of the trigger group, it can be impossible to distinguish between a trigger-induced doubling, and an accidental "bump fire" where the mechanical parts did everything they were supposed to do, but trigger technique allows the trigger to release forward and then get pressed again.
One clue of a botched trigger job is a very long first stage and a light 2nd stage. Getting to that point often involves excessive grinding of sear and/or hammer hooks to the point that the softer non-carburized metal is exposed, which = faster wear of the engagement surfaces. Rouging it up with fine sandpaper or emery cloth at that point is a temporary fix which can become dangerous as the surfaces wear smooth again.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
What Grump said.
And I'll add that if the rear sear is ground at an incorrect angle (negative engagement angle) even if everything else is perfect, it will slamfire as reported by the OP.
A bad spring will also cause it due to the secondary sear not coming back into battery quickly enough.
If everything is correct it really doesn't matter how you pull the trigger....remember, these rifles were made for 17 year old green recruits to operate.
What Grump said.
And I'll add that if the rear sear is ground at an incorrect angle (negative engagement angle) even if everything else is perfect, it will slamfire as reported by the OP.
A bad spring will also cause it due to the secondary sear not coming back into battery quickly enough.
If everything is correct it really doesn't matter how you pull the trigger....remember, these rifles were made for 17 year old green recruits to operate.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Pull the trigger group from the action. Cock the hammer. Pull the trigger let the hammer spring forward ( I place some card board between the hammer and the trigger housing). Now with out releasing the trigger re-cock the hammer. The sear should capture the rear hammer hooks. Now that the sear has grabbed the rear hammer hooks release the trigger. The sear should hand off the rear hammer hooks to the front hammer hooks. Do this a whole bunch of times. If instead of handing off to the front hammer hooks the hammer springs forward then someone botched up the trigger job. Send it back to Springfield for repair or replacement. If you do it over and over again and the front hammer hooks grab it's technique. If you have a way to measure trigger pull it should be around 4.5# to 5# pull on a match trigger. Be careful with doubles. Bad things can happen
Pull the trigger group from the action. Cock the hammer. Pull the trigger let the hammer spring forward ( I place some card board between the hammer and the trigger housing). Now with out releasing the trigger re-cock the hammer. The sear should capture the rear hammer hooks. Now that the sear has grabbed the rear hammer hooks release the trigger. The sear should hand off the rear hammer hooks to the front hammer hooks. Do this a whole bunch of times. If instead of handing off to the front hammer hooks the hammer springs forward then someone botched up the trigger job. Send it back to Springfield for repair or replacement. If you do it over and over again and the front hammer hooks grab it's technique. If you have a way to measure trigger pull it should be around 4.5# to 5# pull on a match trigger. Be careful with doubles. Bad things can happen
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Valken gave best and easiest advice. Springfield's Customer Service is very very good. If bad trigger job they will make it right, and shouldn't take that long.
Valken gave best and easiest advice. Springfield's Customer Service is very very good. If bad trigger job they will make it right, and shouldn't take that long.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Specific to the M1 and M1-A it is called milking the trigger. It is a form of unintended bump firing. It happens on them.
Specific to the M1 and M1-A it is called milking the trigger. It is a form of unintended bump firing. It happens on them.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also don't lube the rear hook or hammer notch. </div></div>
That's a new one to me. Why would you not grease back in that area?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also don't lube the rear hook or hammer notch. </div></div>
That's a new one to me. Why would you not grease back in that area?
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
I wouldn't hesitate to send the rifle back to SA. I sent mine back (they will send you a call tag) and got it back in a little over 3 weeks. If the problem still occurs then you acn work on your technique.
I wouldn't hesitate to send the rifle back to SA. I sent mine back (they will send you a call tag) and got it back in a little over 3 weeks. If the problem still occurs then you acn work on your technique.
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
Springfield says:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Firing from a bench </div></div> Causes problems doubling, primarily for bolt gun shooters who do more squeezing then pulling the trigger.
I had the same problem with the exact factory rifle, it goes away when you retrain your pull.
+1 to Greg Langelius explanation
Springfield says:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Firing from a bench </div></div> Causes problems doubling, primarily for bolt gun shooters who do more squeezing then pulling the trigger.
I had the same problem with the exact factory rifle, it goes away when you retrain your pull.
+1 to Greg Langelius explanation
Re: M1A Possible Sear Slipping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdt1793db</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do I quit riding the trigger in recoil is this where right after the shot breaks let the trigger go completely instead of keeping it depressed. I will have to look into that sand paper good idea. </div></div>
sounds like unintended "bump fire"...either hold the trigger all the way back or let reset.... if you are holding it at the "break" point the rifle after recoiling, rebounds forward against your hold at "break point"...and boom there goes another round.... check out youtube under bump fire.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdt1793db</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do I quit riding the trigger in recoil is this where right after the shot breaks let the trigger go completely instead of keeping it depressed. I will have to look into that sand paper good idea. </div></div>
sounds like unintended "bump fire"...either hold the trigger all the way back or let reset.... if you are holding it at the "break" point the rifle after recoiling, rebounds forward against your hold at "break point"...and boom there goes another round.... check out youtube under bump fire.....
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