Advanced Marksmanship M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

[lonely_wolf]

I am curious about what positions were trained for long range shooting with the early M40 rifles.

From what I understand the M40 and M40A1 Rifles were issued with the Wichita Sling attachments and a shooting sling. Was the sling used? Were they shot 'whatever worked' or were specific positions trained?

Now a days it seems most long range shooters are using bipods. I don't think bipods were used (or even around?) with the early M40's because of the Wichita hardware, but I could be wrong.

<span style="font-size: 8pt">Please excuse me if this is not the correct forum.</span>

 

[Redmanss]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

The basic course through the 90's taught only belly shooting off a rest, usually our butt packs on our deuce gear. Sling implementation varied from platoon to platoon, but I never seen anyone using a loop sling style setup. We used the leather or M16 nylon sling for hasty sling style shooting, but would always use an artificial support such as a tripod whenever possible.

Never had bipods for the M40A1s, and were quietly jealous of other branches and countries that did have them.

 

[longrange1947]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

We trained the sling and a multitude of postions with the M24. We seldom shot off a butt pack, mainly because we never carried them, but showed the shooter how to make a tripod and use other supports. I realize you asked about the M40 but figured I would throw in our regimen as well.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

From what I remember back in 86, there was no sling shooting taught, it was more supported positional including partner supported. It's was more common to shoot off the other guys shoulder than to attempt to sling up. Pretty sure the manual demonstrated partnered supported positions and made no mention of sling supported.

We used the ruck, me personally used a tripod made from the tent poles wrapped in 550 cord.

Anytime any type of positional shooting was engaged it was usually as a joke or a beer bet, not for any reason beyond being silly. Which is sort of odd because in qualifying with the M16A2 it was all about sling shooting.

 

[longrange1947]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

Which course are you talking about in 86 Low Light, because we shot sling supported for the fist 5 days in SOTIC in 86.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

USMC Scout Sniper School... I wasn't in the Army then, although in Korea we did get to attend 2 weeks of the 2nd ID sniper course at Camp Casey just prior to Team Spirit.

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

Thanks for the replies. I'm surprised there wasn't more sling shooting, as from what I understand the rifles were issued with shooting slings. I guess it makes sense though. I was reading another thread and it mentioned sling shooting was a bit awkward for snipers. Either the opportunity did not have offer enough time too sling up, or the opposite, it was too uncomfortable to stay slung up for long periods in a hide.

Partner support shooting- I've seen pictures of this. I thought it was a joke.

Looking through the archives there are a few threads about pack/ruck shooting and the consensus is this is not the most reliable or effective method for precision shooting. Advice was along the lines of, 'Given the opportunity one should find or make a better rest.'

Like many here I have a fondness for the M40 and M40A1 rifles. There is a whole thread dedicated to building clones. Yet very little about training to be accurate with them. They don't have the fancy rails and gadgets of modern rifles. Not even a bipod stud... It made me curious.

Longrange1947- No problem, I appreciate any information.

 

[RebelYell]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

You would train with the m40/m24 just like you would with any other weapon. From use.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like many here I have a fondness for the M40 and M40A1 rifles. There is a whole thread dedicated to building clones. Yet very little about training to be accurate with them.

They don't have the fancy rails and gadgets of modern rifles. Not even a bipod stud... It made me curious.
</div></div>

This is a very interesting comment, fancy rails and gadgets of modern rifles. None of those rails or gadgets can make you a better shooter in any way, form, or fashion, its all about running/driving the rifle using correct fundamentals.

Any fancy gadget, to include the lowly bipod if used as a crutch to overcome inability to master fundamentals, is just that, a crutch.
The M40 - M40-A1 is still one of the best platforms to shoot with under all field conditions, and one of my favorites too.
Go to GA Precision's web site and note their signature rifle is built off the M40-A1 bloodline.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

The reason slings aren't used or weren't used more is that fact that sling shooting is slow. It takes to much time to properly sling up and apply the proper form to hit targets at medium and long ranges. Their Targets will not stay still or wait for the shooter to prepare. Not to mention using a 10x scope instead of iron sights makes it even harder.

Some have tried to romanticize the sling, but for a sniper, it's not an effective way of doing business. Throwing your ruck down and dropping on top is much faster than trying to sling up. Or if you're inside 100 yards a snap shot is more effective, not even necessary to use a hasty sling.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I understand the M40 and M40A1 Rifles were issued with the Wichita Sling attachments and a shooting sling. Was the sling used? Were they shot 'whatever worked' or were specific positions trained?

Now a days it seems most long range shooters are using bipods. I don't think bipods were used (or even around?) with the early M40's</div></div>

I think one should consider the battlefield when the M40 came about. I'm not a marine but I know jungles. Bipods and all those other do-dads we have on rifles today would really suck in the jungle. You'd be suprised how many wait-a-minute vines can grab everything exposed. Heck, half the time sunlight couldn't make it through that crap let a lone a bipod.

Not to mention the added weight.

We didn't have bipods on M21s either. I went to school when we were still training for the last war (SE Asia), not future wars. We were taught the use of the sling (1907), but as mentioned, they arn't always practical. We were also taught hasty slings and using what ever rest was available. (Paddy dikes make good rest). You never got away from your ruck so that too would make a fair rest.

This is just my opinion, but back in the M-40 days there was no use for bipods so they didn't attach them to the rifle.

I just got my first bipod about 6 months ago, I've only used it in my back yard range but I doubt I will take it hunting. I like to use slings, but hunting criters you got time, they don't shoot back and I always wait for them to stop before I shoot. I have used a hasty sling but I've never seen a need for a bipod. I'm lazy, I hunt with a Featherweight for a reason, I don't want or need the added weight.

I'm thinking of taking the bipod PD shooting this spring, that might be fun.

Like I said, this is just my guess, I don't know what was in the minds of the dudes building rifles, I do know what was in the mind of the soldier crawling through jungles.

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RebelYell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You would train with the m40/m24 just like you would with any other weapon. From use. </div></div>

I understand where your coming from, but any tool's efficiency is increased with correct and specific training in their use. Anyone can cut items with a knife, but a person is able to cut quicker (and safer) when taught what parts of the edge to use and which holds provide superior leverage for different applications.

I don't know your experience, but I have found this thread very interesting and informative and I appreciate those who have taken the time to share with me what they were taught and the reasons why.

 

[longrange1947]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

The reason slings were taught was that in many instances a prone position was not possible in the real world. Not in the range world, but the real world. The sling is a tool in a tool box for snipers. The slings are preadjusted and and are fast and easy enough to get into if not going for the NRA standard. The old M1/M14/ orignal M16 sling works like a champ. Mike's Tac Sling was also excellent for speed and ccuracy.

To ignore a tool is doing so at your peril. You will find that some positons that are very unsteady become quite steady when a sling is added. I have watched the "shoot on your belly crew" take over much of the shooting world and forget that grass grows tall, bushes are a bitch and buildings just hate prone shooting.

My 2 cents.

 

[Urquell23]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange1947</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason slings were taught was that in many instances a prone position was not possible in the real world. Not in the range world, but the real world. The sling is a tool in a tool box for snipers. The slings are preadjusted and and are fast and easy enough to get into if not going for the NRA standard. The old M1/M14/ orignal M16 sling works like a champ. Mike's Tac Sling was also excellent for speed and ccuracy.

To ignore a tool is doing so at your peril. You will find that some positons that are very unsteady become quite steady when a sling is added. I have watched the "shoot on your belly crew" take over much of the shooting world and forget that grass grows tall, bushes are a bitch and buildings just hate prone shooting.

My 2 cents. </div></div>

This is wisdom. for those who cannot tell.---Urquell23 sends

 

[earthquake]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

I don't remember using slings much at all on the M40A1. Our plt didn't have bipods or even night-vision mounts on our 40's. We rested them on top of rucksacks most of the time, as was mentioned already above. 1993 - 1996.

 

[Seth8541]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

In Marine Corps Scout Sniper Basic course there was no shooting off of bipods, or ass packs. During the course we carried a 60lb sand bag around in our packs on top of all of our gear for 12 weeks. Whenever there was any shooting to be done on the KD or UKD range it was always prone and off of that sandbag. We did do some partner position shoots but that was more for training/instructional purposes and not for qual. We would however on the stalking phase construct tripods out of mosquito net poles and 550 cord as LowLight had posted or we would modify a camera tripod to shoot off of.

During the Advanced Course and the Urban Sniper Course we did do quite a bit of unsupported sling shooting using both conventional and unconventional position though.

 

[bterry]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

I did two tours as a Sniper Instructor at 1st MarDiv, GySgt Isbell was the SNCOIC on my last FAP to the school house. I wrote a paper to get the bipod on the M40A1, took an extra front sling swivel, grind off some of both ends so the bipod would fit. Took pictures and put a good package together...well you know the story. I enjoyed those days, for some reason we didn't need all this high speed gear and 10X was good enough. Lowlight, we might have froze covering the same ground, usmcsniperone and I were in STA 3/5 for Team Spirit 84 and 86.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

I was mostly on the East Coast during those times, although I did hit Bridgeport in 86, that was when I went to SS, Oct 86 to Dec... Didn't do Team Spirit until 89.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

I was mostly on the East Coast during those times, although I did hit Bridgeport in 86, that was when I went to SS, Oct 86 to Dec... Didn't do Team Spirit until 89.

 

[Jeremyd]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange1947</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which course are you talking about in 86 Low Light, because we shot sling supported for the fist 5 days in SOTIC in 86.

</div></div> Where was SOTIC in 86? I Know the school house in Benning didn't even come to be till 87.

 

[Urquell23]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

SOTIC is on Fort Bragg.(SFSS)

 

[sinister]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

SOTIC was a separate training committee in the Advanced Skills Division of Special Forces School.

It later merged with D Company, 1st Special Warfare Training Battalion, and is now in D Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Special Warfare Training Group.

 

[bterry]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

Any of you go through the Feb-Mar 93 SOTIC class?

 

[Enough Said]

Re: M40/A1 Shooting Positions / Techniques

If we fight a force who has snipers as trained as our own, we will be living on our bellies.

Harris bipods have always been mounted to the F.B.I. M40A1's, because they operate mostly in urban areas or in operations where there is no threat to the sniper.

In 2nd MarDiv, we only taught the tucked carry in which only the forward part of the sling is utilized. I never saw a full sling installed on any of those rifles as slings fail and/or a barrel sticking above your head identified you as a target.

These days a bipod makes perfect sense because the nature of combat supports it.