Mammoth Challenge AAR

[littlehendrick]

My Mammoth Sniper Challenge AAR. A long read, but might be worth it if you are considering joining in the fun one day. This is written from a non-sniper, recreational shooter's perspective. I signed up with less than two weeks notice and had no real time to train up. Please feel free to ask any questions, and I will answer as best as I can.

I participated in the Mammoth Sniper Challenge 12-14 January, 2018. I volunteered to be a partner for someone I had not met on the 4th of January. Zak was a great partner, and I am happy to have met him. I look forward to running into him in the future.

This is not an attempt to say “what ifs” or “I would have won” type of evaluation. Every single team that finished ahead by finishing, earned every spot they got.

Mammoth is known for tough movements, and this year seems like it was no different. The pace was changed from 19min/mile in KY down to 16 min/mile this year. The terrain was much more flat, and is a solid pace to hold with 55lbs. The rain on day 0 and day 1 ruined the roads, turning them into puddles and slick mud. This made holding the 16min pace much more difficult than a nicely maintained dirt road that would normally be present. My team failed to make time on the first ruck on the morning of Day 2. Two factors could help future teams. 1) Remember to start your watch! I thought I pressed the button hard enough, but with cold fingers I was wrong. This removed my ability to judge overall time and had to rely on my internal pace clock. I finished the ruck with under 30 seconds to spare, but my teammate was slightly behind me, and we didn’t know how close we were. We ended up missing time by under 20 seconds. My tendonitis in my knee however would have failed me later that day if I had to continue rucking, as it grew more and more painful through the rest of the weekend, even without the walking. The buildup of fatigue is very hard to estimate without experiencing it. My second suggestion is to have a GPS watch as many teams had. Displaying pace and distance would enable you to manage energy and not over exert yourself if you were not going to be the first team in from your squad. All said and done, I only completed 12 miles in 24 hours. The remaining teams would complete another 15 miles in another 30 hours, bringing their total to a bit over 27 miles. It is a marathon effort, with fatigue building each day, and camping in the low 20’s not helping recovery either. Once again, every team that finished earned it.

We utilized an ultralight BA UL3 tent for the first night. With the temps being in the mid 20’s on the first night, the tent helped keep us a bit warmer. I had chosen to go with my 30 degree bag, and wear more layers as appropriate to save weight. Other teams utilized individual bivies, and may have been a good option depending on your cold tolerance. On the morning of day 2 it was around 27 degrees, with 15mph winds causing it to feel much colder. Once again, having the interior of the tent to re-pack and get ready out of the wind was appreciated.

The shooting at Mammoth is very difficult, with mostly small targets in areas that will provide minimal to no feedback to adjust from a missed shot. As secondary shooter, we ranged targets from 200-600 yards, with most in the 300-500 range. Almost all targets must be ranged while on the clock. Understanding of how your rangefinder works is also essential. Targets will be placed behind IV lines, so when you attempt to range the target, you can get a 50+ yard difference from the dirt in front that you see, to the actual target location. You get to pick which targets to shoot at, and they have varying point values based on their size. We chased trying to put points on the board, and almost always went for the easier targets. I utilized a printout/dope card in a plastic sandwich bag for all my data. Range a target, and pick the nearest 25yd data and adjust accordingly. I should have just printed the 100-600 data, and made it even easier to use.

Due to the windy conditions, with many skinny targets, we shot a lot of secondary targets trying to get points on the board. I had brought 120 rounds with me in my pack, and ended up shooting 116 rounds. Primary had shot under 100 rounds for the weekend, mostly by how we decided to shoot the stages. I am still learning to read wind, and over compensated many times by my lack of knowledge/experience.

Many other teams ran 556 AR’s as secondary rifles, and it makes a lot of sense. Though their shooting may have been a bit harder, especially around 400+, the significant weight savings over my bolt gun can’t be overestimated.

I utilized an Osprey 70 liter pack, which was a bit on the big side for what I needed, but was comfortable with the weight. 1 Liter of water, all food, 120 rounds, full tent, and clothes was 35 lbs. My rifle (Accuracy International AT in 308, S&B PMII 5-25, and Silencerco Saker 762) came in at almost 19.5lbs.

Weight overall was felt every movement, and will be a focus if I compete in the match again. But, with both team members shooting suppressed, it made communication much easier, as well as easier to hear the "hit" (or lack of response) from the ROs.

Will I do it again? Hard to say currently. I get to be cold and walk a lot uncomfortably at work already. But, the people are amazing, with amazing stories. Nothing brings people together like joint suffering in crappy conditions. I was happy with my shooting performance after adjusting my expectations, and relative to my squad mates. I still have room to improve, but I am not as terrible as I felt after the first day of shooting.

Thanks to Joe and Marcus for building up this event, and creating such a challenge. It will be exciting to see where Grunt Style takes Mammoth in the next few years.

Moderators, please move this as you see fit, I didn't see a good category under the competition section.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

It matters little where you finished, what matters the most is you were there, an you finished.

 

[kill_zone67]

This^^^

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Hump weight is something those that never get out of their comfort zone, or off the couch never seem to fully understand. Lite is right always has been always will be. I'll never understand why people what to be a pack mule to the fight. Bench shooting/gear are nice at the bench, but in the field not so much. Many try to over lap the two different styles but few understand until they do it the first time. My sidekick ran the same smoke stick as you, (gun/scope/can) at a R&G we did a few years ago. The last day I went to help on the range an he went back to pickup an load my ruck/rifle ect an said I was cheating with it all being that lite! Next time out his was much lighter an it showed in his stamina/demeanor an on target performance, as neither of us are spring chickens any more.

 

[slowlearner]

As someone that is 5'7", the less I have to carry, the easier my life is. The 16min pace is uncomfortable for me on concrete, much less dirt. Like you said, folks won't understand the fatigue that is accumulated from "just walking".

The rifle was used because it was my only rifle that fit the requirements. She is a great beast, but a little heavy. As I said before, I have been putting off a 16"-18" AR, guess it gives me an excuse to build one finally.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Bullets, beans, band-aids...

 

[myronman3]

let me first say, i have absolutely NO idea what the mammoth challenge is (although my twisted mind has fun running with possiblities)..BUT

"....i'll never understand why people want to be a pack mule to the fight..."

seriously? in this world full of fucktards desperately trying ot be tacticool, having to hump a pack for some distance before engaging your weapon system smacks me as some real world, honest injun training. oh, it doesnt have the easy appeal of pushing your weapon in and out, gazing right and left after firing, and countless other ghey gimmicks i've seen pawned off on the unknowing. but hey, amongst that crowd, it makes ya look like your in the know. i wont talk about what guys who know better think about those employing those gimmicks.

again, i have no idea about this mammoth challenge, who's it is, what is about, or why i am even chiming in, other than to say that carrying a pack into whatever situation you are training for is a damn good idea and VERY realistic training for real world combat situations.

 

[hlee]

I think his point is that a 20lb rifle is great on the bench, but a substantially lighter rifle will carry better. When 80% of the challenge is getting to the target, it makes sense to shave weight where you can. For example, I've got a 6.5 Grendel with a JP 22" med contour barrel that shoots stupid small groups. With the magpul psr stock it is a pretty heavy rifle, topping the scale at around 12-14 lbs with scope (I can't remember exactly). I built my wife a 6.5 Grendel with an 18" light contour Odin works barrel. Paired with a magpul ctr stick is is a relatively svelte 7.7lbs (without scope). With its scope, and fully loaded, it is still sub 10lbs. While not as precise as the former, it is still a sub moa performer and much more fun to carry. Likewise, the rifle I took elk hunting a couple of years ago tipped the scale at less than 8.5 lbs with optic and fully loaded. When miles of mountainous terrain will yield only one shot over a week of hiking, the weight of the rifle is the primary concern. As gunfighter said, light is right and lighter is righter.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

let me first say, i have absolutely NO idea what the mammoth challenge is (although my twisted mind has fun running with possiblities)..BUT

"....i'll never understand why people want to be a pack mule to the fight..."

seriously? in this world full of fucktards desperately trying ot be tacticool, having to hump a pack for some distance before engaging your weapon system smacks me as some real world, honest injun training. oh, it doesnt have the easy appeal of pushing your weapon in and out, gazing right and left after firing, and countless other ghey gimmicks i've seen pawned off on the unknowing. but hey, amongst that crowd, it makes ya look like your in the know. i wont talk about what guys who know better think about those employing those gimmicks.

again, i have no idea about this mammoth challenge, who's it is, what is about, or why i am even chiming in, other than to say that carrying a pack into whatever situation you are training for is a damn good idea and VERY realistic training for real world combat situations.

You might want to re-read my response again, an think about it. If you want to enlighten those of us who have humped for uncle, Field-craft is the place.

 

[myronman3]

i re-read it, and would say the same thing. i still take it the same way, and am at a loss for the part of the statement i quoted. maybe i am missiong something obvious to those who know the details of the "mamoth" challenge.
as far as weight of the weapon, i carried a 17 pound m249 and 1000+ rounds of ammo more times than i care to remember. humping it is bad enough....but carrying it with all that weight pulling down on the riser release is yet another. i did enough of both to last me the rest of my days.

i had some buddies try to talk me into the baton memorial march in new mexico a few years back...at some point, i came to my senses and realized i aint 20 no more. hats off to those of you still out there getting after it; but i'll be saving my energy for fucking.

 

[myronman3]

you guys have no clue how hard i worked to restrain myself from calling it the "mammoth cock" challenge.....oops...and i was doing so well.

 

[slowlearner]

you guys have no clue how hard i worked to restrain myself from calling it the "mammoth cock" challenge.....oops...and i was doing so well.

Just because you don’t want to do it anymore doesn’t mean you have to shit on others for doing it. You know the team that won it are part of the Army Sniper school, with other teams attending from SF, the USMC Sniper School, and the 82nd? Maybe taking the lessons learned from a “non-DOD” event and trying to help our guys? But no, you just want to wrap yourself in your DD214 blanket.

Don’t shit on people for trying to push themselves. I would rather have people ruck and shoot than get fat and die of diabetes. Doesn’t matter if they are .mil or just normal civilians, they are trying to be better.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

i re-read it, and would say the same thing. i still take it the same way, and am at a loss for the part of the statement i quoted. maybe i am missiong something obvious to those who know the details of the "mamoth" challenge.
as far as weight of the weapon, i carried a 17 pound m249 and 1000+ rounds of ammo more times than i care to remember. humping it is bad enough....but carrying it with all that weight pulling down on the riser release is yet another. i did enough of both to last me the rest of my days.

You need to slow down when reading, the lite is right was referring to everything one humps. I doubt those who have infact humped shit for uncle far away, wanted a heaver load to tote to the fight. Riding to the fight is different than humping your shit the long way home. The OP made comment to his weapons weight, an many who only tote them from the trunk to the bench/mat or for 2-3 days, have no idea about humping a full load to the fight. I'd have loved a 17# belt fed ours were 23# empty but banged 7.62x51 The stoners were ok when/if the target was in the open, but in our A/O most of our targets liked to hide behind barriers but the 7.62's could still tag them anyway.
Lite is right,.... an I'd like to see the 201 file of anyone that has issue with that, statement.

 

[TheGerman]

I've always wanted to go and try this; had someone last year that was training up to do it and then family/life problems basically buried him. Have never done it.

Congratulations on finishing. If I remember right, a lot drop out don't they?

Reading how its set up, its extremely close to the final phase of the school I went through in Hammelburg. Get loaded down with all of your shit, in whatever the weather is for the next day and a half, landnav/march from stage to stage in a limited amount of time, get there and sometimes its find and engage X targets within X time or they give you some weird situation/scenario/handicap as well and then off to the next waypoint which could be from less than a K to 5k away from you. Rinse/repeat. Setup and sleep with only what you have, and do Day 2. Oh you didn't bring enough water? Well, I'm sure there's some out there in a puddle or something.

 

[littlehendrick]

I've always wanted to go and try this; had someone last year that was training up to do it and then family/life problems basically buried him. Have never done it.

Congratulations on finishing. If I remember right, a lot drop out don't they?

Reading how its set up, its extremely close to the final phase of the school I went through in Hammelburg. Get loaded down with all of your shit, in whatever the weather is for the next day and a half, landnav/march from stage to stage in a limited amount of time, get there and sometimes its find and engage X targets within X time or they give you some weird situation/scenario/handicap as well and then off to the next waypoint which could be from less than a K to 5k away from you. Rinse/repeat. Setup and sleep with only what you have, and do Day 2. Oh you didn't bring enough water? Well, I'm sure there's some out there in a puddle or something.

Roughly 50% of teams that compete in the Tough Man category do not meet the time requirements. My team failed to make time on a ruck, so we did not finish the whole event in the Tough man category (counts as a DNF, but is tracked when you got dropped). So I was one of the 50% that did not make it.

The movements are all on the roads/trails. So no land-nav skills are needed (currently). Good news is, they have water everywhere, so that is less of a safety concearn.

You still get a stage briefing like other precision matches, with described targets, but you most likely do not get distances to the target. This forces you to range on the clock. This year, there LRF’s were allowed on all stages, so no milling of targets was required.

It was a good experience, and challenging. A nice change of pace from a PRS match, makes me appreciate the easy life a bit more.

 

[howe0001]

1) Question about dope cards and stage briefs: During the stage briefs, do you guys recommend using a grease board with grease pencil (small, 3x5 size) , the kind you can mount to the side fo the rifle or do you recommend wrist boards? which works best?

2) Rear Bags: Would a bag filled with Styrofoam beads (lightweight) or with sand/walnut shells/plastic beads (heavy)?

3) Bipod Feet: spikes or rubber?

4) Barricade stop on rifle: Yes, no? or don't worry about.

5) Hand Loads: AS long as they stay under the speed limit?

These are probably stupid questions, but hey, I'm old, I've learned if you don't ask, you miss out.

I'm hoping to be there for the 2019 once they announce the info about it (Grunt Style). I have never participated in one of these and was hoping to get some insight on some of the gear.

 

[littlehendrick]

Howe-

1) Data cards - For mammoth, I have every 25yds data with a 10mph hold. Kept that in a ziplock baggy, and thats all I used all weekend. Simple for speed, and for me shooting 308 as secondary didn’t have huge gaps in data since I only had to shoot to 600.For PRS matches, different set up.

2) Rear Bag - I ran an Armageddon gear python, which has their lightweight fill. Light is right in my book for this match.

3) I ran rubber feet, but I don’t have spikes so I can not comment if it would have been better.

4) I don’t have a barricade stop on my AI, and for this match, I didn’t see it being an advantage. Now with the possible changes coming with GS, who knows.

5) I ran factory 118LR, and it shoots pretty well out of my gun. With my hand loads I can push a Berger 175 up to (and beyond) 2800. For some of the really small targets, it might have helped. I didn’t feel like (as a secondary shooter) that it would be worth the difference (and you lose all your brass).

Asking questions helps you prepare, which for this match is key! Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.

 

[Gray Squirrel]

Good stuff. I've had my eye on the Mammoth Challenge, but have a list of life-related excuses on why I haven't buckled down and done it yet. Good on you for actually getting out and doing it.

 

[howe0001]

Howe-

1) Data cards - For mammoth, I have every 25yds data with a 10mph hold. Kept that in a ziplock baggy, and thats all I used all weekend. Simple for speed, and for me shooting 308 as secondary didn’t have huge gaps in data since I only had to shoot to 600.For PRS matches, different set up.

2) Rear Bag - I ran an Armageddon gear python, which has their lightweight fill. Light is right in my book for this match.

3) I ran rubber feet, but I don’t have spikes so I can not comment if it would have been better.

4) I don’t have a barricade stop on my AI, and for this match, I didn’t see it being an advantage. Now with the possible changes coming with GS, who knows.

5) I ran factory 118LR, and it shoots pretty well out of my gun. With my hand loads I can push a Berger 175 up to (and beyond) 2800. For some of the really small targets, it might have helped. I didn’t feel like (as a secondary shooter) that it would be worth the difference (and you lose all your brass).

Asking questions helps you prepare, which for this match is key! Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.

My partner and I are planning on the "regular division" as a taste to the match as a whole. I'm older (partner is too). Not sure we want to do the "camping" part. So my question is for a day pack, I have the following items in mind to have with me on a daily basis:

On Person:
Small chest pouch ( containing drop charts/slope dope/etc , grease pencil with grease board - that can be mounted on side of rifle)

Pack:
LRF
Basic tools for rifle/bore snake
3 10 rnd mags
70 rounds total for each day (.308)
snacks
handwarmers and other gear to stay warm if Park City, ( less warm gear if Blakley)
Rifle is a R700 .308 custom, varmint barrel 26", SWFA 12x42, custom M40 type stock (overall 14.4 lbs)

Does this sound about right? I know I'll have some other items in there for layers, "some water" for in between, first aid, etc. But this is my basic load out. Molle II back pack that I can attach rifle to in the center against frame . So far my weight on pack is about 35 - 37 LB.

I'm going to be primary shooter but wonder if I'm missing any major components. My biggest worry is being able to get my info at the stage brief and use the information effectively and quickly.

Any tips?

Thanks again for your other response.

 

[Maggot]

Howe-

1) Data cards - For mammoth, I have every 25yds data with a 10mph hold. Kept that in a ziplock baggy, and thats all I used all weekend. Simple for speed, and for me shooting 308 as secondary didn’t have huge gaps in data since I only had to shoot to 600.For PRS matches, different set up.

2) Rear Bag - I ran an Armageddon gear python, which has their lightweight fill. Light is right in my book for this match.

3) I ran rubber feet, but I don’t have spikes so I can not comment if it would have been better.

4) I don’t have a barricade stop on my AI, and for this match, I didn’t see it being an advantage. Now with the possible changes coming with GS, who knows.

5) I ran factory 118LR, and it shoots pretty well out of my gun. With my hand loads I can push a Berger 175 up to (and beyond) 2800. For some of the really small targets, it might have helped. I didn’t feel like (as a secondary shooter) that it would be worth the difference (and you lose all your brass).

Asking questions helps you prepare, which for this match is key! Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.

Thanks for the geat write up. sounds like a (painful) blast. Not to divert your thread but here is one Ive wanted to try out at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton NM, run by Jon Weiler. I dont remember the name of the specific challenge but if yu call the Whittington Center you can find out. It was similar to what you did but at about 6000 feet elevation...less 02 makes everything more difficult. Again, thanks for the write up.

 

[littlehendrick]

Good stuff. I've had my eye on the Mammoth Challenge, but have a list of life-related excuses on why I haven't buckled down and done it yet. Good on you for actually getting out and doing it.

It fell into my lap, and I was in the right place at the right time. It sure hurt (knee problems really), but I am an Infantry guy, so walking in the woods is pretty normal to me. This was much more fun because everyone wants to be there so it is a great environment.

There are a ton more of these style events popping up, it is worth the experience for sure.

 

[littlehendrick]

My partner and I are planning on the "regular division" as a taste to the match as a whole. I'm older (partner is too). Not sure we want to do the "camping" part. So my question is for a day pack, I have the following items in mind to have with me on a daily basis:

On Person:
Small chest pouch ( containing drop charts/slope dope/etc , grease pencil with grease board - that can be mounted on side of rifle)

Pack:
LRF
Basic tools for rifle/bore snake
3 10 rnd mags
70 rounds total for each day (.308)
snacks
handwarmers and other gear to stay warm if Park City, ( less warm gear if Blakley)
Rifle is a R700 .308 custom, varmint barrel 26", SWFA 12x42, custom M40 type stock (overall 14.4 lbs)

Does this sound about right? I know I'll have some other items in there for layers, "some water" for in between, first aid, etc. But this is my basic load out. Molle II back pack that I can attach rifle to in the center against frame . So far my weight on pack is about 35 - 37 LB.

I'm going to be primary shooter but wonder if I'm missing any major components. My biggest worry is being able to get my info at the stage brief and use the information effectively and quickly.

Any tips?

Thanks again for your other response.

Looks like a pretty good set up. Being confident in your rifle is the most important. Having too light of a rifle, or one you don’t practice with won’t help, so I think you are headed in the right direction.

With Grunt Style now running the competition, the categories might switch around a bit. This year they didn’t let anyone do the “regular” division. It was tough man or open. But that may change again next year with Grunt Style, only time will tell.

As long as you have data (KISS principal applies here), something to range with, notepad to write shorthand notes on (from the stage brief), ammo, and rifle you will be set for fun!

 

[Maggot]

It fell into my lap, and I was in the right place at the right time. It sure hurt (knee problems really), but I am an Infantry guy, so walking in the woods is pretty normal to me. This was much more fun because everyone wants to be there so it is a great environment.

There are a ton more of these style events popping up, it is worth the experience for sure.

Sooooo, how cna we integrate these events into 'trainings' for the citizen militia spoken of in the Constitution? the libtards say only soldiers need AR's and that they should be only in the military. Well, to have a well reglated militia there needs to be training, and thse events are perfect for that purpose, and gives us a completely legit reason to have the AR...as part of a well regulated militia. Thoughts???

 

[littlehendrick]

Sooooo, how cna we integrate these events into 'trainings' for the citizen militia spoken of in the Constitution? the libtards say only soldiers need AR's and that they should be only in the military. Well, to have a well reglated militia there needs to be training, and thse events are perfect for that purpose, and gives us a completely legit reason to have the AR...as part of a well regulated militia. Thoughts???

To be honest, these are events unique in themselves as is. There is no reason or need to shoe-horn politics into such an event.

The greatest value of the training at this event also has nothing to do with shooting, because these events really have shooting as a side attraction. Mutual suffering is what it is about, and partially why so few have ever committed to try and complete it.

But, your idea of tying training and politics and justification may have something, but that is probably more for the Bear Pit section of the hide.

 

[Maggot]

To be honest, these are events unique in themselves as is. There is no reason or need to shoe-horn politics into such an event.

The greatest value of the training at this event also has nothing to do with shooting, because these events really have shooting as a side attraction. Mutual suffering is what it is about, and partially why so few have ever committed to try and complete it.

But, your idea of tying training and politics and justification may have something, but that is probably more for the Bear Pit section of the hide.

First, we are right smack dab in the middle of the Bear Pit.

I didnt intend that politics enter into it at all...no more than they do in the military itself. The idea was to have a trained force...and by that Im not speaking of the right wing type militias, but one that is wide open and open to all who want to train and be prepared to defend against all threats both foriegn and domestic.

I do understand your point in it being more about suffering...LOL with shooting as a side avenue to make the suffering have a bit of meaning.