March Genesis - 400 MOA in the Turret
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I just ordered one from March Options, the first order they have taken. $5000.00 plus $50 shipping, they expect to start shipping in four (4) months. Orders are being taken now but cards will not be run until the scopes are received (as in you have about 4 months to save up/get your available credit level up).
No reticle options, no info on “accessories” at this time. BTW, March has done magic with FFP in regards the thickness of the reticle, NOT increasing it as you go further out and up in magnification. Since we (URSA) shoot at known distances (starting at 2000+ yards), we have no need for mil, just don’t want to lose the target in the crosshairs. My other scopes, which I’m selling off, are all SFP.
My only question is whether I will need a tall Pic rail (zero MOA) underneath because my barrels are 45” long. Still TBD.
The March Optics contact is George at (360)733-5351, option #1. Please be patient with George in his order processing because they have a new system and it will take a few minutes for each order.
Now to square this with the Good Lord.
No reticle options, no info on “accessories” at this time. BTW, March has done magic with FFP in regards the thickness of the reticle, NOT increasing it as you go further out and up in magnification. Since we (URSA) shoot at known distances (starting at 2000+ yards), we have no need for mil, just don’t want to lose the target in the crosshairs. My other scopes, which I’m selling off, are all SFP.
My only question is whether I will need a tall Pic rail (zero MOA) underneath because my barrels are 45” long. Still TBD.
The March Optics contact is George at (360)733-5351, option #1. Please be patient with George in his order processing because they have a new system and it will take a few minutes for each order.
Now to square this with the Good Lord.
[Oscar:
I don't get any sound on the vid. Am I assuming correctly the elevation is mechanical? If so, what do you plan on doing after about 200 -250 minutes when the brake is obscuring the cross hairs? Paul asked me about making an offset mount for this very reason .
Alan
I don't get any sound on the vid. Am I assuming correctly the elevation is mechanical? If so, what do you plan on doing after about 200 -250 minutes when the brake is obscuring the cross hairs? Paul asked me about making an offset mount for this very reason .
Alan
When you consider the Charlie Tarac Unit is only $1500 with user selectable elevation that rivals this, and works with existing scopes, you'll have a hard time convincing all by the diehard to spend this kinda money
Alan - that's my open question. Its unclear to me whether I will or will not have a problem. The solution that comes to mind is what many others have used, a tall Pic rail (here in zero MOA), just to get the scope up in the air so the line of sight is not interfered with by the barrel/brake. As I noted, unclear whether that will or will not be a problem. My action is dead flat on the top so no huge deal. I'd just add a spacer - if I needed to. I have a design I used before for another Pic application (so I didn't have to use super long screws). Sorry, just local machine shop stuff.
See how easy its become to say, "...only $1500...".
Only $1500 when you consider it works with a 100 yard zero and any existing scope or system...
A Vortex Gen 2 Razor with 32 Mils, + Charlie Unit with 150 Mils = $3900 for 182 Mils of adjustment or 624 MOA
A Vortex Gen 2 Razor with 32 Mils, + Charlie Unit with 150 Mils = $3900 for 182 Mils of adjustment or 624 MOA
Glad to see one manufacturing picking up the pace. Let’s see how long it takes others to follow...
Yes, however adjusting the Charlie to be able to take full advantage of that adjustment range is going to involve some trial & error (adjust & shoot to confirm adjustment value).
With the March unit, assuming it works as advertised, you are going to be able to make known adjustments through the full range.
Wont this be the same thing since you'll have to confirm the adjustment value. the Charlie would be a fixed adition to your elevation and once that is found out it would be set at that elevation change.
So I’m doing some dollar calcs here in Aus to get my necessary elevation travel .
S & B 5 - 45 ( non Horus ) $ 6400 + Tacom $ 2000 = $ 8400
N F 7 - 35 ( non Horus ) $ 5000 + Tacom $ 2000 = $ 7000
Add around $ 500 for Horus reticle .
If I don’t want to hang the Tacom off the objective , and don’t run a chassis , then
I need to add $ for a NV mount , plus precision alignment / mounting by a smith .
Add $ for quality 34 mm rings .
March 6 - 60 Genesis $ 6000 no Tacom required = $ 6000 ( maybe a bit less )
No rings to buy , mounts direct to rail .
No additional glass in the way to affect optical clarity either . I looked through a March
with High Master glass recently at the local range , best I’ve ever seen . Had a look
through a friends Tacom and did notice some optical degradation .
Plenty of change for a couple of barrels , or a wheelbarrow full of powder and projectiles .
Prices are in Australian dollars , not USD . I know US prices may possibly be sharper .
This also assumes I can get an ITAR permit for the Tacom . And an Aus import permit .
I could get the March from an Aus dealer very easily , when availiable .
I’ve used NF and S & B as examples as they are the highest mag FFP competitors availiable .
Apples to , well slightly different apples .
S & B 5 - 45 ( non Horus ) $ 6400 + Tacom $ 2000 = $ 8400
N F 7 - 35 ( non Horus ) $ 5000 + Tacom $ 2000 = $ 7000
Add around $ 500 for Horus reticle .
If I don’t want to hang the Tacom off the objective , and don’t run a chassis , then
I need to add $ for a NV mount , plus precision alignment / mounting by a smith .
Add $ for quality 34 mm rings .
March 6 - 60 Genesis $ 6000 no Tacom required = $ 6000 ( maybe a bit less )
No rings to buy , mounts direct to rail .
No additional glass in the way to affect optical clarity either . I looked through a March
with High Master glass recently at the local range , best I’ve ever seen . Had a look
through a friends Tacom and did notice some optical degradation .
Plenty of change for a couple of barrels , or a wheelbarrow full of powder and projectiles .
Prices are in Australian dollars , not USD . I know US prices may possibly be sharper .
This also assumes I can get an ITAR permit for the Tacom . And an Aus import permit .
I could get the March from an Aus dealer very easily , when availiable .
I’ve used NF and S & B as examples as they are the highest mag FFP competitors availiable .
Apples to , well slightly different apples .
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New technology benefits all of us.
As a shooter you now have multiple choices for extended range: as a shooter if you are comfortable with adjusting your platform in order to deal with changing scope tilt mechanical systems are your way to go, The Charlie TARAC does not require any changes to the shooters platform ie.. changing comb height and but pad position. Indeed I have a gimbal system I built 2yrs ago under my desk but decided not to go the mechanical route.
The capability to shoot full mag at extended distances is problematical to the atmosphere conditions as we all know. How often will you use 60x at 2 miles? If it is 1% of the time a premium is being paid for a 1% use. If you use 25-30x on average the range of scopes $$ increases dramatically. Don't get me wrong I find the March magnification abilities to be astounding.
Clarity: new units are clearer than original units from 2yrs ago.
To note the Charlie is not limited to bell or rail mount. We have introduced a new method of attachment specifically addressing target scopes and lack of rails - without mounting to the bell.
Our range is also much higher concerning MOA/MIL shift. We have built units at 200MIL and will soon send units out at 300+mil but our adjustments are in 10's of degrees ie.. 45+ degrees.
We have also already addressed the 45" barrel. The first units will be in shooters hands in a couple of weeks.
Price: using the Australian example of $2000 for a Charlie. 1 scope = $2,000. 2 scopes = $1350 (adding one more adapter. 3 scopes = $1050 per scope.
As an entry level ELR shooter: you can use your $500 scope with a Charlie and have your 400moa shot. Starting with your 6.5 Creedmoor. Then transfer it to your .338Lap, then to your .375. then to your .416... and still shoot it instantly on all of the guns. 4 guns x $5,000= a lot. Do I believe a shooter will transfer their March scope - YES- just making sure apples and apples are compared.
The pricing is indeed a bit sharp- scope wise.
Our unit can transfer scope to scope gun to gun.
Field adjustment: tall target, and verniers have been used. We have a company (of which a major Sniper's Hide contributor witnessed) absolutely adjusted multiple times on the fly in the field at a recent publicized shoot.
The adjustable unit will adjust 100moa per click. Or 30mil per click or 60mil per click.... your choice.
All scope settings will usually have a first round confirmation.
Gun Smith to mount the Charlie: The Charlie is the most forgiving optic you can mount and certainly does not need a gun smith.
Your 100yd zero position on the rifle is exactly the same at 3 miles. I believe a sniper saying is "consistency = accuracy".
I would believe you will need a riser to compensate for any barrel length versus MOA. That is why we ask for barrel length in our calculations: to confirm the unit will function with your platform.
We are ITAR on all of our products: we are currently working with a large name Ausie company for import.
I am impressed with the technology presented by March and wish them the best of luck. However, I want to make sure we are truly comparing apples and apples.
As a shooter you now have multiple choices for extended range: as a shooter if you are comfortable with adjusting your platform in order to deal with changing scope tilt mechanical systems are your way to go, The Charlie TARAC does not require any changes to the shooters platform ie.. changing comb height and but pad position. Indeed I have a gimbal system I built 2yrs ago under my desk but decided not to go the mechanical route.
The capability to shoot full mag at extended distances is problematical to the atmosphere conditions as we all know. How often will you use 60x at 2 miles? If it is 1% of the time a premium is being paid for a 1% use. If you use 25-30x on average the range of scopes $$ increases dramatically. Don't get me wrong I find the March magnification abilities to be astounding.
Clarity: new units are clearer than original units from 2yrs ago.
To note the Charlie is not limited to bell or rail mount. We have introduced a new method of attachment specifically addressing target scopes and lack of rails - without mounting to the bell.
Our range is also much higher concerning MOA/MIL shift. We have built units at 200MIL and will soon send units out at 300+mil but our adjustments are in 10's of degrees ie.. 45+ degrees.
We have also already addressed the 45" barrel. The first units will be in shooters hands in a couple of weeks.
Price: using the Australian example of $2000 for a Charlie. 1 scope = $2,000. 2 scopes = $1350 (adding one more adapter. 3 scopes = $1050 per scope.
As an entry level ELR shooter: you can use your $500 scope with a Charlie and have your 400moa shot. Starting with your 6.5 Creedmoor. Then transfer it to your .338Lap, then to your .375. then to your .416... and still shoot it instantly on all of the guns. 4 guns x $5,000= a lot. Do I believe a shooter will transfer their March scope - YES- just making sure apples and apples are compared.
The pricing is indeed a bit sharp- scope wise.
Our unit can transfer scope to scope gun to gun.
Field adjustment: tall target, and verniers have been used. We have a company (of which a major Sniper's Hide contributor witnessed) absolutely adjusted multiple times on the fly in the field at a recent publicized shoot.
The adjustable unit will adjust 100moa per click. Or 30mil per click or 60mil per click.... your choice.
All scope settings will usually have a first round confirmation.
Gun Smith to mount the Charlie: The Charlie is the most forgiving optic you can mount and certainly does not need a gun smith.
Your 100yd zero position on the rifle is exactly the same at 3 miles. I believe a sniper saying is "consistency = accuracy".
I would believe you will need a riser to compensate for any barrel length versus MOA. That is why we ask for barrel length in our calculations: to confirm the unit will function with your platform.
We are ITAR on all of our products: we are currently working with a large name Ausie company for import.
I am impressed with the technology presented by March and wish them the best of luck. However, I want to make sure we are truly comparing apples and apples.
Great response by John Apexx. I suppose Doc Beech's comments on the other March thread are noteworthy, that this is "not an external system that has been internalised ... This is a brand new system for managing the elevation travel of a scope, a patented system using a new mechanism for movement."
The funny thing about having a high magnification scope is that you end up using the range of powers as your brain gets used to processing the information. Unlike SFP, this is FFP and it will take time and practise to get it right for the shooter. I'm just going through that training having lent my 10-60 to someone for BR.
Tangentially, for those of us outside the US of A, US goods are expensive (think very expensive) and difficult to get and Australia is a very small market for US suppliers to bother with. A stand alone unit looks a lot more useful than having to source a lot of different gear to solve the ELR problem.
The funny thing about having a high magnification scope is that you end up using the range of powers as your brain gets used to processing the information. Unlike SFP, this is FFP and it will take time and practise to get it right for the shooter. I'm just going through that training having lent my 10-60 to someone for BR.
Tangentially, for those of us outside the US of A, US goods are expensive (think very expensive) and difficult to get and Australia is a very small market for US suppliers to bother with. A stand alone unit looks a lot more useful than having to source a lot of different gear to solve the ELR problem.
Thanks John for your post above . Yeas , high mag is not so great in the desert in
summer . In the cold in mountainous terrain , I’ve run 60x in a spotter at 5 miles
with ease , and wanted even more mag ! The March has 6 x on the bottom end
if required .
I’d recommend guys wanting to shoot ELR to get a better than $500 scope ! Your
device deserves a better optic behind it . Let us know here when you find a
distributor in Aus .
summer . In the cold in mountainous terrain , I’ve run 60x in a spotter at 5 miles
with ease , and wanted even more mag ! The March has 6 x on the bottom end
if required .
I’d recommend guys wanting to shoot ELR to get a better than $500 scope ! Your
device deserves a better optic behind it . Let us know here when you find a
distributor in Aus .
Hi,
I have a few questions for the guys that have actually put their mits onto this scope..preferably have shot with this scope!
1. During the elevation travel range did you have to adjust your cheek PIECE to maintain proper position and alignment? Because from the videos the eyepiece moves up and down a LOT.
2. During the windage travel range did you have to adjust your cheek POSITION to maintain proper position and alignment? Because once again with the mechanical adjustments moving the eyepiece.
3. How in the hell does anyone shoot that rifle in last video? It would need like an 8-10 inch adjustable cheek piece to see through that eyepeice. The distance appears to be more than twice the size of the guys forearm.
4. Can anyone at March get a video of a rifle zeroed at 100m with proper cheek piece position while moving the elevation and windage through its' entire range spectrum to show exactly how much cheek piece adjustment is needed for elevation and what kind of cheek piece position change is needed to account for the windage?
Sincerely,
Theis
I have a few questions for the guys that have actually put their mits onto this scope..preferably have shot with this scope!
1. During the elevation travel range did you have to adjust your cheek PIECE to maintain proper position and alignment? Because from the videos the eyepiece moves up and down a LOT.
2. During the windage travel range did you have to adjust your cheek POSITION to maintain proper position and alignment? Because once again with the mechanical adjustments moving the eyepiece.
3. How in the hell does anyone shoot that rifle in last video? It would need like an 8-10 inch adjustable cheek piece to see through that eyepeice. The distance appears to be more than twice the size of the guys forearm.
4. Can anyone at March get a video of a rifle zeroed at 100m with proper cheek piece position while moving the elevation and windage through its' entire range spectrum to show exactly how much cheek piece adjustment is needed for elevation and what kind of cheek piece position change is needed to account for the windage?
Sincerely,
Theis
It is my turn to drool a bit- I was waiting for someone from "Alaska", for the magnification note, to call me out on that one Ha Ha. Your point is taken and well appreciated- a clear day without mirage or heavy humidity...
I have indeed drooled over March Scopes. I distinctly remember looking through a unit across the SHOT floor at the far wall and looking at the pattern in the vertical wall slats- dots to be exact that were not even marginally visible with other products. My son always kids me at SHOT, instead of drooling over cars at a car show, I head right to the scopes. I am making adapters for March products as we speak and indeed as noted the lighter bodied target scopes are specifically why we engineered a 3rd style of mount.
We are working on a distributor to the land of Ausie's and Kiwi's - someone I am quite sure you are familiar with. Some of our non- ITAR product is on its way for your game wardens.
Yes- our target audience was the tactical application but the products are capable at a competition level.
I always appreciate the effort someone makes to introduce a new product/component because someone put their heart and soul into at some level- even in the biggest of corporations. I appreciate the ingenuity and engineering. I would enjoy talking with the creators of the Genesis. In the end we all come under the rule of the market place... not a forgiving partner.
Cheers John . Yeah I’d love to visit Alaska someday ! Most of my experience with
high altitude ELR is in places you wouldn’t want to visit ... Guys are using your
products in some ‘ interesting ‘ places .
Great news on availiabilty down under I’ll get in the que . Easy to arrange a meeting
with some of the design team at Shot Show next year , seems like a long way down the
road though . Contact Doc Beech when he gets back from IWA in a week or so , a meeting
of intelligent minds can often produce great results .
high altitude ELR is in places you wouldn’t want to visit ... Guys are using your
products in some ‘ interesting ‘ places .
Great news on availiabilty down under I’ll get in the que . Easy to arrange a meeting
with some of the design team at Shot Show next year , seems like a long way down the
road though . Contact Doc Beech when he gets back from IWA in a week or so , a meeting
of intelligent minds can often produce great results .
1. Have to shoot it to answer that . Having shot ( a lot ) in the field in unusual positions , I’m
thinking it’s not a lot different to a difficult positional shooting in the field . We all have to
compromise our cheekpeice height , length of pull etc etc to suit prone , barricade , sitting ,
bench , and tripod positions : my rifle set up is a compromise that works in all positions . This
is not that much different . For ELR , it’s going to be at least the 1500 elevation dialled to
maybe 3000 dialled , all prone most likely . You are not going to be running from 100 to
6000 yard that often I’d say , so the angle change isn’t that great really .
2. How much windage do you dial ? I can’t ever remember dialing more than 5 or 6 Mils
very often ( 20 MOA ) . If I’m running that much wind , I’m not likely having a successful
day at ELR ranges , regardless of what system I’m shooting ... Don’t think it’s an issue at all .
Most of the time , I’m dialling the low end of my wind bracket and holding the changes on
the reticle .
3. The rifle in the video looks like a heavy BR gun , prolly for demonstration only . BR guns
have no actual cheekpice as such , BR shooters don’t have their heads on the gun at all .
Just like rings , they have said this optic will have different height options to suit different
systems . It’s not a production model , details are going to change .
4. Patience , very early days . No doubt we will see a lot of this new optic on some serious
hardware in months and years to come .
My only concern with this scope is that roughly 5 years ago I bought one of the March high magnification 10-60X scopes, a friend got the year later 8-80X magnification version. we both found that they were incredibly dark when anywhere near the max magnification. So i would wait a bit to hear the reviews on this scope, since you will very likely be trying to run it at max magnification (in this case that seems to be upwards of 60X). If they fixed the light-related issue noted above, then it will be interesting to hear about the elevation available inside the scope.
Jeffvn
Jeffvn
Hi,
I think this scope is going to be a little more popular in the ELR world than we think.
It is NOT cheap but as we all know...nothing in the ELR world is. When we start looking at the larger, all encompassing picture of ELR; what is $5k?
Flights, travel, and hotel accommodations to one of the "More Popular" ELR events soaks up that much cost in itself. Not even talking about the amount of money in ammunition required to be competitive at those events.
So the ELR fanatics: A) Have the money themselves, B) Industry sponsor(s) have the money, C) They own/work directly for a company involved in the ELR industry....either way there will always be shooters in the ELR industry that crave advancements in the industry since those cravings are what led them to ELR genre in the first place
Is the ELR genre a notable percentage of the shooting population? Nope; so the sheer numbers of potential purchasers of this scope starts out very limited!!
Are there some reputable "concerns" that only the production model can discard? Yep
All in All I look forward to seeing how the production schedule and model pans out.
@Papagrizzly
Do you know if the mil version is going to be available in 2018?
Do you know the weight of the production model? I ask that because with KO2M reducing weight by another 5 pounds for 2019 that may become an issue for your target market.
Sincerely,
Theis
I think this scope is going to be a little more popular in the ELR world than we think.
It is NOT cheap but as we all know...nothing in the ELR world is. When we start looking at the larger, all encompassing picture of ELR; what is $5k?
Flights, travel, and hotel accommodations to one of the "More Popular" ELR events soaks up that much cost in itself. Not even talking about the amount of money in ammunition required to be competitive at those events.
So the ELR fanatics: A) Have the money themselves, B) Industry sponsor(s) have the money, C) They own/work directly for a company involved in the ELR industry....either way there will always be shooters in the ELR industry that crave advancements in the industry since those cravings are what led them to ELR genre in the first place
Is the ELR genre a notable percentage of the shooting population? Nope; so the sheer numbers of potential purchasers of this scope starts out very limited!!
Are there some reputable "concerns" that only the production model can discard? Yep
All in All I look forward to seeing how the production schedule and model pans out.
@Papagrizzly
Do you know if the mil version is going to be available in 2018?
Do you know the weight of the production model? I ask that because with KO2M reducing weight by another 5 pounds for 2019 that may become an issue for your target market.
Sincerely,
Theis
Hey Thesis
You are just going to have to wait a while for R&D to work through. I suspect the MIL version will try to be released in parallel but that is not yet clear and the weight is going to be about the same I reckon. Keep on checking the March FB page is the best way forward.
However the key point for you is in the video.
You are just going to have to wait a while for R&D to work through. I suspect the MIL version will try to be released in parallel but that is not yet clear and the weight is going to be about the same I reckon. Keep on checking the March FB page is the best way forward.
However the key point for you is in the video.
Hold on. Are you saying the distance between reticle subtensions scale with maginfication, while the thickness of the lines stay constant? I'm not optics expert, but how is that possible?
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