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match rifle ammo: dillon 550b vs 650

H

hkfan45

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 25, 2013
143
0
#1
I have a CO-AX single stage, but would like to speed up the process, while maintaining the same accuracy. I've heard some well respected and experienced match winners have used progressives, but I'm not sure of their exact setup. My thoughts were to get a progressive press and use it as a "semi-progressive," where I would do multiple passes. Right now I neck turn lapua & LC brass in 308 and 223, use Type-s bushings, and Redding comp seating dies, and use a Chargemaster. I was hoping I could speed up the process by using a progressive with a floating or clamped toolhead and get the same level of runout and ES/SD.

Can anyone comment on the setup they use to load long range match ammo with a progressive? I'm pretty ignorant on using a progressive, as my experience is solely with single stages.

550b vs 650, and why?

If 650, do you use the case feeder? Do you measure each charge manually, or have you found a highly accurate solution on the Dillon?
Any accessories/modifications (i.e. clamped or free floating tool head) that are absolutely needed for producing extremely consistent ammo?

Price is not really a factor.
 
#3
I have a 550 and am about to buy a 650 or 1050. Main reason is case feeder and auto index to speed up brass processing..

I have the Whidden heads on my 550. Very happy with them.
 
#4
Switched to a 650 from a Hornady LNL AP, love the 650. The case feeding system is absolutely reliable. That being said, I load my ammo for the bolt guns on a single stage. Match grade loadings for semi-autos do get done on the 650 and they are very consistent. I only have modified the live primer catch system and the spent primer catch. Everything else works fine. I have not bothered with any of the tool head modifications and don't see them as being necessary. I have separate tool heads for brass prep on the rifle rounds.
 
#6
I have a 550 and a 1050.

I have the rapid trimmer and case feeder on the 1050. This thing is a power house for bulk ammo! I can process 1000 pcs of brass in under 30 minutes. From there, they go into the rotary tumbler with stainless and water/dish soap/lemi-shine.

I haven't even given any thought to loading match ammo with these machines. That isn't to say they won't do it, but I just feel better knowing each cartridge was actually hand loaded.
 
#9
All of my important ammo, including 1000 yard match stuff gets done on a 550 run semi-progressively. Using pinned tool heads with floating dies will make a huge difference in runout, anyone who tells you it doesn't hasn't tried it. I dump charges over the top at station 2 with a funnel die. Using prepped, un-primed brass, I can load 150 rounds per hour of the absolute best ammo I can make.

I also have a 650, but only use it for high-volume pistol loads and occasionally .223 for other people to shoot. If I could only have one, it'd be the 550 by a mile.
 
#10
Erud said:
All of my important ammo, including 1000 yard match stuff gets done on a 550 run semi-progressively. Using pinned tool heads with floating dies will make a huge difference in runout, anyone who tells you it doesn't hasn't tried it. I dump charges over the top at station 2 with a funnel die. Using prepped, un-primed brass, I can load 150 rounds per hour of the absolute best ammo I can make.

I also have a 650, but only use it for high-volume pistol loads and occasionally .223 for other people to shoot. If I could only have one, it'd be the 550 by a mile.
Click to expand...

I only plan on having one progressive. Is there a reason you would choose the 550 over the 650, if you could only have one?
 
#11
The 650's auto index and case feeder are the advantages over a 550. You can crank through brass with one tool head, then load with another.

I separate rifle brass prep from loading.
 
#12
hkfan45 said:
I only plan on having one progressive. Is there a reason you would choose the 550 over the 650, if you could only have one?
Click to expand...

It's just a lot simpler and more flexible. You can only load the quantities people quote if you are using a powder measure on the press. I don't use the powder measure for rifle loads, so the output is limited by the speed of my powder dispenser/scale combo. It takes around 10 seconds to throw a charge, so that is how fast I can load, regardless of the press. The Dillon powder measure is fine, but is not accurate enough for my purposes. Also, the 550 is really easy to work on, and any problems that might occur are minor and easy to fix. The 650 is a much more complicated machine, and occasionally things will go wrong that take a little time to sort out. Both are good machines, but for 2 different purposes, in my opinion.
 
#13
I loaded with a 450 for 20 years, then that press with the 550 upgrades for a few more before buying the 650.

For rifle ammo, the principle advantage of the 650 is the case feeder will work with rifle cases. This can make you pretty cavalier about how many times you run brass through the press. I think the 650 does a better job with primer seating than the 550.

The 2 tool head solution is the way to go.

Practice ammo gets primed and charged on the press, match ammo does not. Practice ammo gets powders selected to meter reasonably well.

I'm a big fan of the Dillon trim dies, but some brass will need expansion afterwards. I'll use a Sinclair expander or Lyman M die for that. Federal brass will need expanding, Winchester will not. Remington probably not, Hornady maybe. Practice ammo gets flared and crimped if the bullet has a cannelure. If it gets flared, I don't bother with chamfering.

With good dies and no expander balls, I use standard tool heads and the concentricity is the same as ammo loaded on my Rock Chucker. I don't have any trouble staying below 0.003" with match sorted and prepped brass.

Changing calibers on either is trivial after you've done it a few times. Clearing malfunctions is the same way. If the malfunctions get irritating enough, you get good at adjusting the machine so they just don't happen.

Pistol ammo, the 650 is the way to go if you shoot a lot.
 
#14
Erud said:
All of my important ammo, including 1000 yard match stuff gets done on a 550 run semi-progressively. Using pinned tool heads with floating dies will make a huge difference in runout, anyone who tells you it doesn't hasn't tried it. I dump charges over the top at station 2 with a funnel die. Using prepped, un-primed brass, I can load 150 rounds per hour of the absolute best ammo I can make.

I also have a 650, but only use it for high-volume pistol loads and occasionally .223 for other people to shoot. If I could only have one, it'd be the 550 by a mile.
Click to expand...

Can you explain how you accomplish this? Which dies are you using?
 
#15
OF&B said:
I loaded with a 450 for 20 years, then that press with the 550 upgrades for a few more before buying the 650.

For rifle ammo, the principle advantage of the 650 is the case feeder will work with rifle cases. This can make you pretty cavalier about how many times you run brass through the press. I think the 650 does a better job with primer seating than the 550.

The 2 tool head solution is the way to go.

Practice ammo gets primed and charged on the press, match ammo does not. Practice ammo gets powders selected to meter reasonably well.

I'm a big fan of the Dillon trim dies, but some brass will need expansion afterwards. I'll use a Sinclair expander or Lyman M die for that. Federal brass will need expanding, Winchester will not. Remington probably not, Hornady maybe. Practice ammo gets flared and crimped if the bullet has a cannelure. If it gets flared, I don't bother with chamfering.

With good dies and no expander balls, I use standard tool heads and the concentricity is the same as ammo loaded on my Rock Chucker. I don't have any trouble staying below 0.003" with match sorted and prepped brass.

Changing calibers on either is trivial after you've done it a few times. Clearing malfunctions is the same way. If the malfunctions get irritating enough, you get good at adjusting the machine so they just don't happen.

Pistol ammo, the 650 is the way to go if you shoot a lot.
Click to expand...

So, I'm leaning towards the 650. I need to put together a list of 650 accessories I'll need for reloading match ammo on the progressive. I plan on getting the casefeeder w/ plates for 223 and 308, the whidden/uniquetek floating tool heads w/ clamp kit, strong mount, and bullet tray. I have all the type-s dies and sinclair expander mandrels already that I use on my single stage. I assume I need some sort of funnel die to manually charge the cases w/ my chargemaster, correct? Anything else? Redding instant indicator? What am I missing?
 
#16
SWThomas said:
Can you explain how you accomplish this? Which dies are you using?
Click to expand...

Sure. I use the floating die toolheads from Whidden Gunworks with the Uniquetek clamp kits. With the clamp kit, you tap threads into the toolhead and are then able to lock it into place in the press, removing all slop. The floating diee toolheads allow your sizer and seater dies to self-align on the case as it enters the die. The regular factory toolheads on the Dillon presses are usually the main cause of excessive runout. The reason for this is that the toolhead has several different forces working on it at the same time when you are loading, pushing upwards on the plate with varying amounts of force. Minor variables like case length, neck tension, use of the powder measure, etc, cause the plate to "twist" to different degrees with every pull of the handle.

The easiest way to prove this is to measure concentricity of a round from the middle of a loading session when all stages on the press were full. Then, load a round by itself, running it through the stages with no other cartridges present. With all other factors being equal, you will generally see a noticeable difference, with the single-loaded round being less concentric. The clamped toolhead keeps the plate from twisting under stress. Using this method, I am able to get loaded ammo with concentricity as good as with any single-stage press. This was definitely not the case with any of my dillon presses using the OEM setup. The mod is easy and relatively cheap to do, and worth the investment of time and money for top-shelf loads.

As for dies, I generally use Redding comp dies, but get the same results with Hornady in one caliber that I shoot. Hornady was the only company making dies for the caliber when I bought them, but I have found them to work just fine.

Good luck,
Erik
 
#17
hkfan45 said:
So, I'm leaning towards the 650. I need to put together a list of 650 accessories I'll need for reloading match ammo on the progressive. I plan on getting the casefeeder w/ plates for 223 and 308, the whidden/uniquetek floating tool heads w/ clamp kit, strong mount, and bullet tray. I have all the type-s dies and sinclair expander mandrels already that I use on my single stage. I assume I need some sort of funnel die to manually charge the cases w/ my chargemaster, correct? Anything else? Redding instant indicator? What am I missing?
Click to expand...


Sounds like you are on the right track. One thing worth thinking about though, if you are planning on using the Chargemaster for your powder throws, the 650 will be no faster than a 550. You can only pull the handle as fast as the chargemaster can throw charges and you will find yourself with time to stare at stuff waiting for it to throw them.
 
#18
Erud said:
Sounds like you are on the right track. One thing worth thinking about though, if you are planning on using the Chargemaster for your powder throws, the 650 will be no faster than a 550. You can only pull the handle as fast as the chargemaster can throw charges and you will find yourself with time to stare at stuff waiting for it to throw them.
Click to expand...

That's very true and a very good point to remember. My thought was it would speed up case prep with the first pass through the Dillon. On the second pass when I'm manually charging, you're right, I won't pick up any speed (I guess other then have one less thing to focus on).
 
#19
Erud said:
Sounds like you are on the right track. One thing worth thinking about though, if you are planning on using the Chargemaster for your powder throws, the 650 will be no faster than a 550. You can only pull the handle as fast as the chargemaster can throw charges and you will find yourself with time to stare at stuff waiting for it to throw them.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. In fact, if you like to use a press in this manner my favorite progressive is the Hornady LNL. I used to do all ammo on it and that is how I loaded my match rifle ammo up until recently. Easier to configure and cheaper without having to use special tool heads, etc. (I hate to plug my own F/S thread but I do have one listed up for sale as I converted to a 650 for pistol and semi-auto use and a single stage for my bolt guns).
 
#21
hkfan45 said:
So, I'm leaning towards the 650. I need to put together a list of 650 accessories I'll need for reloading match ammo on the progressive. I plan on getting the casefeeder w/ plates for 223 and 308, the whidden/uniquetek floating tool heads w/ clamp kit, strong mount, and bullet tray. I have all the type-s dies and sinclair expander mandrels already that I use on my single stage. I assume I need some sort of funnel die to manually charge the cases w/ my chargemaster, correct? Anything else? Redding instant indicator? What am I missing?
Click to expand...

I set up each of the tool heads with a Lee universal decapping die. Either to remove the primer or make sure nothing from the tumbler is in the primer pocket or flash hole. I set up that die to stop the ram short. This keeps the press from springing and keeps everything length involved much more uniform. I also think it squares things up because I just don't have the concentricity problems that others report. I put the lock nuts on the bottom. With the shorter cases like 223, I use the Whidden billet tool heads with the short side up to get clearance for the chip window on the 223. The Whidden tool heads don't cost any more than the Dillon. The downside of that approach, aside from another $10 a tool head, is if that die moves all your adjustments are off.

My 223 / 6.5CM / 308 die setup is the Dillon sizer/trimmer, Redding Competition seater. If a Dillon trim die isn't available, I use the Redding full length bushing dies.

With new dies, or precision ammo, I hand lube every case with Imperial Sizing Wax. Practice ammo gets Hornady One Shot aerosol in a gallon freezer bag using the shake and bake method.

I do not use any of the floating/clamping arrangements and have no problem producing concentric ammo from good components. I don't try to make bad cases straight though, it's a waste of time. I load them up as practice ammo, shoot them through a straight chamber, check them, cull the bad ones, weight sort them and move on. Shoulder bumps are within .001 either way if the brass is annealed. Brass of varying hardness opens that up. OALs are as uniform as the bullets used. I use the Hornady tools to determine shoulder bump and OAL for the individual bullet and chamber.

I use 2 Hornady Auto Charges with precision ammo. Since I don't prime the precision ammo on the press, I just start with a bin of primed brass, charge it on the bench, put it under the seater die in station 4 with a bullet, and seat it. The powder measures set the pace, so that's just as fast as running the cases through the feeder. I'm old, so it's less confusing than wondering if I charged that round while I cleared the last overcharge from the powder measure. I started with dropping the powder through a powder die, but moved away from it. This approach also saves me the trouble of pulling the decapper pin from the die I'm using as the travel stop when I'm using freshly primed cases.

First pass through the machine is ~100 cases every 4-5 minutes. Priming, charging, seating, and crimping practice ammo goes at ~100 cases every 8-10 minutes. With precision ammo, it takes ~ 45 minutes to charge and seat 100 rounds. Precision ammo has the additional overheads of deburring and priming. I'm also annealing almost all of my precision stuff every time these days. All ammo goes through the tumblers again to get the lube off. Precision ammo goes through a SS pin setup.

This has evolved over a lot of years and it's kind of scary to look at the total cost.
 
#23
hkfan45 said:
Where are people buying their dillon? I see brian Enos is the main retailer, but I see Grafs has them too.
Click to expand...

I just picked one up from Enos not too long ago. He offers free shipping over X amount of dollars, and the press puts you well into the territory. I didn't even look at other options and he was able to save me a couple bucks by mixing and matching conversion kit pieces for the cartridges I load.
 
#24
Erud said:
Sure. I use the floating die toolheads from Whidden Gunworks with the Uniquetek clamp kits. With the clamp kit, you tap threads into the toolhead and are then able to lock it into place in the press, removing all slop. The floating diee toolheads allow your sizer and seater dies to self-align on the case as it enters the die. The regular factory toolheads on the Dillon presses are usually the main cause of excessive runout. The reason for this is that the toolhead has several different forces working on it at the same time when you are loading, pushing upwards on the plate with varying amounts of force. Minor variables like case length, neck tension, use of the powder measure, etc, cause the plate to "twist" to different degrees with every pull of the handle.

The easiest way to prove this is to measure concentricity of a round from the middle of a loading session when all stages on the press were full. Then, load a round by itself, running it through the stages with no other cartridges present. With all other factors being equal, you will generally see a noticeable difference, with the single-loaded round being less concentric. The clamped toolhead keeps the plate from twisting under stress. Using this method, I am able to get loaded ammo with concentricity as good as with any single-stage press. This was definitely not the case with any of my dillon presses using the OEM setup. The mod is easy and relatively cheap to do, and worth the investment of time and money for top-shelf loads.

As for dies, I generally use Redding comp dies, but get the same results with Hornady in one caliber that I shoot. Hornady was the only company making dies for the caliber when I bought them, but I have found them to work just fine.

Good luck,
Erik
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation! I may look into those tool heads for loading my rifle stuff.
 
#25
ZombieMonkey said:
Switched to a 650 from a Hornady LNL AP, love the 650. The case feeding system is absolutely reliable. That being said, I load my ammo for the bolt guns on a single stage. Match grade loadings for semi-autos do get done on the 650 and they are very consistent. I only have modified the live primer catch system and the spent primer catch. Everything else works fine. I have not bothered with any of the tool head modifications and don't see them as being necessary. I have separate tool heads for brass prep on the rifle rounds.
Click to expand...

I'm getting ready to do the same exact thing. I just get so frustrated with the Hornady L&L and am ordering the 650xl. Did you keep the L&L, or is there a market for an used one. Like you, I also load all my rifle reloads on a single stage.
 
#26
BenTerrible said:
I have a 550 and a 1050.

I have the rapid trimmer and case feeder on the 1050. This thing is a power house for bulk ammo! I can process 1000 pcs of brass in under 30 minutes. From there, they go into the rotary tumbler with stainless and water/dish soap/lemi-shine.

I haven't even given any thought to loading match ammo with these machines. That isn't to say they won't do it, but I just feel better knowing each cartridge was actually hand loaded.
Click to expand...

I hate to call someone out, but I'm calling BS on that claim for 30 minutes unless you have an auto-drive cranking away or you are just flying through pulls of that handle. You're going to have to stop to load the case feeder a few times in a run of 1000 cases and 30 minutes is a little optimistic at best. Give honest and realistic numbers when you're throwing this stuff out there as there is no need to give someone false hopes when they are considering investing in one of these machines.
 
#27
SWThomas said:
Thanks for the explanation! I may look into those tool heads for loading my rifle stuff.
Click to expand...

Before you bother, please do some due diligence on your part to first measure whether or not you actually need to mod your heads or purchase the Whidden heads. Some people have issues and some do not with the runout and the factory heads, I personally do not. Regardless, if I wanted to load benchrest quality ammo I would turn to a single stage press as they are going to be more consistent over a large run, it's a matter of fewer variables.

That being said, the Dillon is perfectly capable of putting out ammo capable of doing very well in a practical precision rifle application.
 
#28
Holtz said:
I'm getting ready to do the same exact thing. I just get so frustrated with the Hornady L&L and am ordering the 650xl. Did you keep the L&L, or is there a market for an used one. Like you, I also load all my rifle reloads on a single stage.
Click to expand...

I personally just sold my Hornady just this week as there is a market for it as long as you are reasonable with your asking price. The 650 was a great move for me as I tend to do larger runs of ammo. I hated having to readjust things each time with the Hornady Case feeder. The Hornady system works well when setup just right, but if it's not it definitely can be a headache. If that's your main source of frustration, then I think you would be in love with the Dillon as their case feed system is simply awesome as you swap the caliber conversion parts in, throw in you toolhead, and start cranking.

*I will caution you about making the switch to Dillon 650... You're going to need to stock up on supplies as you go through things really fast, I haven't ever loaded this much ammo and actually thought I want to go load some more until now.
 
Last edited:
#29
ZombieMonkey said:
I personally just sold my Hornady just this week as there is a market for it as long as you are reasonable with your asking price. The 650 was a great move for me as I tend to do larger runs of ammo. I hated having to readjust things each time with the Hornady Case feeder. The Hornady system works well when setup just right, but if it's not it definitely can be a headache. If that's your main source of frustration, then I think you would be in love with the Dillon as their case feed system is simply awesome as you swap the caliber conversion parts in, throw in you toolhead, and start cranking.

*I will caution you about making the switch to Dillon 650... You're going to need to stock up on supplies as you go through things really fast, I haven't ever loaded this much ammo and actually thought I want to go load some more until now.
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply. did you sell your LNL on line or just local?
 
#30
Erud said:
Sounds like you are on the right track. One thing worth thinking about though, if you are planning on using the Chargemaster for your powder throws, the 650 will be no faster than a 550. You can only pull the handle as fast as the chargemaster can throw charges and you will find yourself with time to stare at stuff waiting for it to throw them.
Click to expand...
That's the same situation I find myself in. I take the round to be loaded out of the Dillon and throw the charge with the Chargemaster. The wait really slows down the reloading process with my 550 but I find it faster than using my 1010 beam scale. Then reinsert the round in the Dillon to finish up. I don't find the Dillon powder measure accurate enough for my match loads. For bulk loading for my MG's it's fine.
 
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