McMillan Vs. Lawton

#3
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blondes Brunettes Redheads </div></div>
honestly that's kinda what i figured. but at more than double the price, the McMillan is the high maintenance blonde. correct?
 
#4
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

the way i look at it, they are both good actions. With McMillan you gotta weigh your gains plus cost over the Lawton. Law of diminishing returns is my take on it
 
#5
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blondes Brunettes Redheads </div></div>
honestly that's kinda what i figured. but at more than double the price, the McMillan is the high maintenance blonde. correct? </div></div>

It would be entirely irresponsible of me to recommend one over the other to you as I've never so much as touched a McMillan.

I just couldn't resist the opportunity to drop a wisecrack.

Your friendly response to said wisecrack as opposed to angry bullshit is the kind of attitude that leads me to believe you should get a good answer from someone with experience with both if you wait patiently and occasionally bump your thread from time to time.

-cheers.
 
#7
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

Don't think McMillan really has an appropriate action/bolt face for this caliber unless it's one of the single shot 50 cal. actions with a custom bolt face. Stiller now has two nice .408/.375 CheyTac size actions that are repeaters.
 
#8
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blondes Brunettes Redheads </div></div>
honestly that's kinda what i figured. but at more than double the price, the McMillan is the high maintenance blonde. correct? </div></div>
correct. do you like high-cost blondes?
smile.gif
 
#10
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

You shouold really consider a single shot unless your holding off the TALIBAN and at 200 yds plus should have plenty of time.
I had a right bolt left feed Lawton and it was awesome!!!!!!!

Lawton is the leader hands down

repeater ??? may want to rethink that?

Just a suggestion
 
#12
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so how about comparing Stiller, Lawton and McMillan? Stiller would be the Tac408 action. Lawton would be the 8000 action and McMillan would be the 50 bmg repeater action. </div></div>

I've used the McMillan .50 and it's an enormous amount of action for the .408CT. A lot of extra weight and of course, dollars....
 
#13
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so how about comparing Stiller, Lawton and McMillan? Stiller would be the Tac408 action. Lawton would be the 8000 action and McMillan would be the 50 bmg repeater action. </div></div>

I've used the McMillan .50 and it's an enormous amount of action for the .408CT. A lot of extra weight and of course, dollars.... </div></div>
i just looked at your website. i like the looks of your work. do you make an action capable of handling the 375 cheytac? in a repeater of course.
 
#14
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so how about comparing Stiller, Lawton and McMillan? Stiller would be the Tac408 action. Lawton would be the 8000 action and McMillan would be the 50 bmg repeater action. </div></div>

I've used the McMillan .50 and it's an enormous amount of action for the .408CT. A lot of extra weight and of course, dollars.... </div></div>
i just looked at your website. i like the looks of your work. do you make an action capable of handling the 375 cheytac? in a repeater of course. </div></div>

The FROSTY is the CheyTac capable action. You can get it in any configuration you want in single shot or repeater.
 
#16
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

You are going to give up some accuracy with a repeater as it is a LOT less metal (which leads to less stiffness). Not to the point of being detrimental, but worth noting.

At the ranges which this caliber shines, you will have plenty of time to hand load another round in the port.

Call Bobby (NotAGuru on the hide) at Lawton, he can answer a lot of your questions.
 
#17
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are going to give up some accuracy with a repeater as it is a LOT less metal (which leads to less stiffness). Not to the point of being detrimental, but worth noting.

At the ranges which this caliber shines, you will have plenty of time to hand load another round in the port.

Call Bobby (NotAGuru on the hide) at Lawton, he can answer a lot of your questions. </div></div>
theoretically i would say you are absolutely correct, but we are talking about a custom action that is 1.47"-2" round that is probably way over built to begin with. so i would say that the loss of accuracy if any would be negligible. even if we were talking a loss of accuracy what are we talking? 3/8 MOA down to 1/2 or 5/8 MOA? if so, i can live with that all day long.
 
#18
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

Yeah, not detrimental, and I don't have an exact figure. You have to consider though that a loss of 1/8 MOA from your equipment could be a big deal at 2000 yards.

It really depends on what you intend to use it for. If you are primarily going to set her up and bang steel at 1500 yards, a single feed is not a big deal. If you are going to be more mobile with it, then a mag is nice.

I recently abandoned a 375 build and went another direction. I went with a Lawton action and on Bobby Lawton's advice went with a single. I never got it running, so I can't comment on actual field experience.

In the real world, it probably does not make much difference, but if you want to tap every little bit of accuracy out of this platform, a single is technically more accurate.

You really should get in touch with Bobby. He knows his stuff and can answer any questions you might have.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=sendprivate&User=16579


eta: you still comin down Sunday?
 
#19
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are going to give up some accuracy with a repeater as it is a LOT less metal (which leads to less stiffness). Not to the point of being detrimental, but worth noting.

At the ranges which this caliber shines, you will have plenty of time to hand load another round in the port.

Call Bobby (NotAGuru on the hide) at Lawton, he can answer a lot of your questions. </div></div>
theoretically i would say you are absolutely correct, but we are talking about a custom action that is 1.47"-2" round that is probably way over built to begin with. so i would say that the loss of accuracy if any would be negligible. even if we were talking a loss of accuracy what are we talking? 3/8 MOA down to 1/2 or 5/8 MOA? if so, i can live with that all day long. </div></div>

With all things being relative, it is true that a single shot is going to be stiffer. In the case of custom actions, and certainly in the case of Skunkworks actions (1.35" and 1.47") there's more material left in the action. The Skunkworks repeaters are designed to account for a higher level of rigidity and more importantly, precision. Couple a solid foundation with solid build technique and it would be hard to tell the difference between a single shot and a repeater down range.
 
#20
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

Wow Mike, those actions look serious. What is the wall thickness on those bad boys?

BTW, I am not trying to talk you into or out of a repeater. I just want you to have even more things to consider in doing a build (as if there were not enough already)!!!
grin.gif
 
#21
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

The OP sounds to me like he already knows what he wants. He just wants us to tell him he is right and give him the confidence to start the new build.

I have both a Lawton repeater in 408 CT and a single shot Lawton 375. Are they both accurate? yes. but the single shot weighs less and is more rigid. plus this cartridge performs amazingly. keep an open mind when your asking us for our opinions and then shooting them down like we are wrong. I would tell you not to spend the extra money on the repeater and go with a single shot Lawton build. He can also barrel it for you.
 
#22
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are going to give up some accuracy with a repeater as it is a LOT less metal (which leads to less stiffness). Not to the point of being detrimental, but worth noting.

At the ranges which this caliber shines, you will have plenty of time to hand load another round in the port.

Call Bobby (NotAGuru on the hide) at Lawton, he can answer a lot of your questions. </div></div>
theoretically i would say you are absolutely correct, but we are talking about a custom action that is 1.47"-2" round that is probably way over built to begin with. so i would say that the loss of accuracy if any would be negligible. even if we were talking a loss of accuracy what are we talking? 3/8 MOA down to 1/2 or 5/8 MOA? if so, i can live with that all day long. </div></div>

With all things being relative, it is true that a single shot is going to be stiffer. In the case of custom actions, and certainly in the case of Skunkworks actions (1.35" and 1.47") there's more material left in the action. The Skunkworks repeaters are designed to account for a higher level of rigidity and more importantly, precision. Couple a solid foundation with solid build technique and it would be hard to tell the difference between a single shot and a repeater down range. </div></div>
exactly my point
 
#23
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP sounds to me like he already knows what he wants. He just wants us to tell him he is right and give him the confidence to start the new build.

I have both a Lawton repeater in 408 CT and a single shot Lawton 375. Are they both accurate? yes. but the single shot weighs less and is more rigid. plus this cartridge performs amazingly. keep an open mind when your asking us for our opinions and then shooting them down like we are wrong. I would tell you not to spend the extra money on the repeater and go with a single shot Lawton build. He can also barrel it for you. </div></div>
i do know what i want in the gun. what i do not know....which is the original question, is which manufacturer of action to go with. there is lawton, mcmillan, surgeon, skunkworks, and more. what makes one better than the other? as far as confidence, well i'll just bite my tongue.
 
#26
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow Mike, those actions look serious. What is the wall thickness on those bad boys?

BTW, I am not trying to talk you into or out of a repeater. I just want you to have even more things to consider in doing a build (as if there were not enough already)!!!
grin.gif
</div></div>

The thickest part of the STINKER is .419" above the bolt way. The Remington 700 Measures .282" in the same location. The FROSTY is a scaled up version of the STINKER and is a Heavy Duty Action designed to handle not only the CheyTac rounds but the Skunkworks proprietary round as well.
 
#27
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bite your tongue and do Lawton. save yourself the hassles...
</div></div>
why? because the great kyshooter says so? im not against lawton, but i would like to hear from people that have trigger time behind more than one of these manufacturers.
 
#29
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

762,

Just be sure to make note to yourself that it has been documented that upwards to 82fps muzzle velocity shift has been noticed with shooting a repeater 375. More precisely that after firing 8 rounds in non hurried manner and then putting live round in chamber and waiting only 3 minutes (note it takes longer than that to work up firing solution for the extreme distances) will change the 131.2 gr of RL25 load for 350gr solids by 82fps. That equates to a "MISS".

Thanks
 
#30
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">762,

Just be sure to make note to yourself that it has been documented that upwards to 82fps muzzle velocity shift has been noticed with shooting a repeater 375. More precisely that after firing 8 rounds in non hurried manner and then putting live round in chamber and waiting only 3 minutes (note it takes longer than that to work up firing solution for the extreme distances) will change the 131.2 gr of RL25 load for 350gr solids by 82fps. That equates to a "MISS".

Thanks </div></div>

Alright Later,

You've got my attention. I would be interested in seeing said documentation.

-Chris
 
#31
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">762,

Just be sure to make note to yourself that it has been documented that upwards to 82fps muzzle velocity shift has been noticed with shooting a repeater 375. More precisely that after firing 8 rounds in non hurried manner and then putting live round in chamber and waiting only 3 minutes (note it takes longer than that to work up firing solution for the extreme distances) will change the 131.2 gr of RL25 load for 350gr solids by 82fps. That equates to a "MISS".

Thanks </div></div>

Alright Later,

You've got my attention. I would be interested in seeing said documentation.

-Chris</div></div>

You want my log books lol? I can make copies for you when I get back home.

There is a reason I have gone to damn near all single shots in my ELR rifles
smile.gif


Thanks
 
#32
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">762,

Just be sure to make note to yourself that it has been documented that upwards to 82fps muzzle velocity shift has been noticed with shooting a repeater 375. More precisely that after firing 8 rounds in non hurried manner and then putting live round in chamber and waiting only 3 minutes (note it takes longer than that to work up firing solution for the extreme distances) will change the 131.2 gr of RL25 load for 350gr solids by 82fps. That equates to a "MISS".

Thanks </div></div>

Alright Later,

You've got my attention. I would be interested in seeing said documentation.

-Chris</div></div>

You want my log books lol? I can make copies for you when I get back home.

There is a reason I have gone to damn near all single shots in my ELR rifles
smile.gif


Thanks </div></div>

I spend a lot of time on the 'hide. It's my home on the www. Consequentially I read a lot of your posts and put much credence into what you say. So here is my question: Can you absolutely tell me that you repeatedly notice a + or - 82 FPS difference in velocity after firing 9 rounds in succession? I'm not being a jerk, I really want to know. If you can honestly tell me that you have eliminated all other variables that might cause the variation, including D.A., ammunition inconsistencies, etc, I'll take your word for it.

-Chris
 
#33
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

Chris,

I understand you question and I was not being sarcastic in regards to copying my log book pages. I was actually being serious so that you can see all the data that got recorded and by what equipment as well as "areas" the shooting took place.

So when I say YES to your question I am saying we have elimated all other variables. NOW I am not saying single shot actions do not get same results..what I am saying is that with repeaters people are naturally more likely to chamber live round instead of taking the time to "preheating" conditions. It is just better to have bolt open with round ready to chamber while working out the firing solutions then closing bolt and firing within seconds, whether you can "train" yourself to do that with repeater or let the single shot do it for you is all that matters.

During these test we even controlled ammo temp in itself. We had chamber thermometers built into a cartridge so we could accurately get chamber temperature instead of using temp strips on outside of chamber.

Thanks
 
#34
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

Later,

Thanks, I appreciate the info. Lets continue hi-jacking this thread for just a bit.

Lowlight has shown repeatedly that ammunition, rifle and barrel temps do not effect practical accuracy. However we both know there is nothing practical at Extreme Long Ranges. Every variable is expressed exponentially. As you noted a 2% difference in muzzle velocity equals a miss.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the change in velocity was caused by ammunition temperature increasing, during the prolonged time in the hot chamber, right? And since you are the only one I know who has taken time to measure it, how hot did the chambered round get?

-Chris
 
#36
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

I am new to the hide and still learning alot about long range shooting. but i have shot a 375 cheytac on a single shot lawton action. went out with the guys from benchmark barrels and hit a target about 18 inches at 1880 yards in two shots. I dont think you would be dissapointed with a lawton.
 
#40
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets bring this up again.....i just ordered a remington 700p in 338 lapua. now i know that won't reach out as far as the 375, but that is a repeater. thoughts? comments? by the way, im putting a nightforce 22x on the 700p. </div></div>

That'll do.
 
#44
Re: McMillan Vs. Lawton

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bump for some new opinions
</div></div>

You've seen the recent Lawton threads? </div></div>
i have...looks like someone's prophecy has come true eh?
wink.gif
 
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