Mirage: Squiggly diagrams translating to real life

[BoltBandit]

So I've been scouring the forums to an answer for this. I'm sure I'm way over thinking things, or then I again, maybe I'm just really thick.... both highly plausible, so here it goes.

In my fairly common effort to better understand how to read and DOPE the wind, mirage is a subject often brought up. All the threads seem to answer the question or "where", or "how" by discussing objects to focus on, at what point along the trajectory one should focus on and so on and so on. There's one thing that eludes me and this question seems barely answered beyond go get some experience and take good notes. So I'll try to rephrase the question.

How does the circular diagram with a bunch of squiggly lines shown at various angles to represent wind speed translate into what I'm actually seeing through my spotting scope? Please, focus your replies on this one question!!! Like I said, I'm either overthinking or being really thick, because these diagrams apparently make sense to everyone but me when it comes to what I'm actually looking for in the field.

I can't say I've ever seen a literal translation of the squiggly diagram to what I see in the field. I don't see these wavy vertical columns of disturbed are at various angle and spacing. From what I'm gathering, that's not at all what I should be looking for to analyze, but rather analyze the peaks and troughs of what for example would be a straight horizontal line (such as a target frame/berm/etc). Obviously I understand that mirage is not limited to objects with straight horizontal lines, but I understand these types of objects to be where I should focus my attention to as I learn.

As it relates to the initial question, am I correct about the peaks and troughs? Is the angle of the peaks what the angle of the squiggly lines are referencing? How should I interpret the relative height of the peaks and what information does that yield?

Any advice and tips (other than "everyones eyes are different, just go do it") to help me understand how to interpret mirage for doping wind would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

When you look at mirage against a fixed object with straight lines such as a road, or fence line, or the ridge line of a roof, or a target frame, what you see is a pulse just like a heart beat. You are watching the frequency of the waves as they pass by a fixed point. Your are describing it as peaks and valleys, and it could definitely be perceived as that. That is only a small slice of the whole picture.

If you pull your focus back a bit you will see that those waves actually cover the entire field of view and are at a definite angle as they move across the field of view. They can be very hard to see with a rifle scope, but are much more obvious with the use of a spotting scope.

This photo shows about a 3 mph wind. Look at how both the fire and the heat waves are leaning to the left.

 

[AIAW]

This may help. A lot of good information there that saves a great deal of typing!

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/where-to-read-the-mirage.42463/

 

[Deleted member 113831]

This may help. A lot of good information there that saves a great deal of typing!

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/where-to-read-the-mirage.42463/

He's not asking "where" to read it. What he is saying is that he can't see the actual waves rising except against a hard straight line.

 

[pitdog85]

Bolt bandit I have the exact same question and I would say skookums picture is about the best ive seen to describe it. I have searched youtube and there is literally nothing, the best I came up with was a video from John Mcquay that went for a few mintues showing mirage through his scope and the wind speed that he said so that you can kind of see what he is talking about. No one has made an in depth video to show for example a pic or video like skookums that shows what a 0-3mph or 3-5mph looks like in REAL LIFE. The diagrams with the squiggly lines like the article from the texas shooters that everyone mentions don't really help me.

I asked frank to talk about reading mirage in the everyday sniper podcast and he hasn't yet but maybe its something that needs pictures and video and you cant just talk about it??

 

[Deleted member 113831]

This is a pretty solid 6mph left to right wind.

 

[pitdog85]

Skookum in that pic there I wouldn't be able to tell if that was left or right and certainly not the speed?? What exactly are you looking at here to determine the direction and speed?

 

[AIAW]

He's not asking "where" to read it. What he is saying is that he can't see the actual waves rising except against a hard straight line.

The title is misleading. That old thread goes all over the place - the good and the bad!

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The title is misleading. That old thread goes all over the place - the good and the bad!

I perused it superficially, I'll go back over it. Maybe there is a nugget in there for me too.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Skookum in that pic there I wouldn't be able to tell if that was left or right and certainly not the speed?? What exactly are you looking at here to determine the direction and speed?

You have to look at the pic on a good sized screen and enlarge it. Probably can't see it on a phone.

 

[BoltBandit]

When you look at mirage against a fixed object with straight lines such as a road, or fence line, or the ridge line of a roof, or a target frame, what you see is a pulse just like a heart beat. You are watching the frequency of the waves as they pass by a fixed point. Your are describing it as peaks and valleys, and it could definitely be perceived as that. That is only a small slice of the whole picture.

If you pull your focus back a bit you will see that those waves actually cover the entire field of view and are at a definite angle as they move across the field of view. They can be very hard to see with a rifle scope, but are much more obvious with the use of a spotting scope.

This photo shows about a 3 mph wind. Look at how both the fire and the heat waves are leaning to the left.

View attachment 7054227

Ok, that’s the heart of what I’m asking. Maybe my eyes aren’t trained enough, or I need to get off my ass and practice in the Georgia summer rather than every other time of year ?

So I see the broader distortion when pull back the focus, that part I get. (Btw, using a Vortex Razor 27x60 if that matters). But other than the flame’s angles at that nice 30 degrees, I don’t see what your seeing that allows you to determine that 30 degree angle. That’s what I’m struggling with. Idk, maybe I’m just not shooting in the right conditions?

 

[BoltBandit]

I perused it superficially, I'll go back over it. Maybe there is a nugget in there for me too.

I gave that a good read, but it didn’t address what I’m asking, which is what am I actually looking at. That and I got mired down in the bantering when it got off topic.

 

[BoltBandit]

This is a pretty solid 6mph left to right wind.

View attachment 7054237

What specific features tell you this is 6mph? I know I’m asking a hard question to technically describe this, but that’s where I’m stuck.

 

[BoltBandit]

The title is misleading. That old thread goes all over the place - the good and the bad!

Lol, it def goes all over the place, the good and the bad for sure. I get most of the concepts in there until the bantering began, then I got bored. The crux of my problem to put simply is the ability to look at the pictures posted by Skookum and DOPE the wind.

 

[BoltBandit]

Bolt bandit I have the exact same question and I would say skookums picture is about the best ive seen to describe it. I have searched youtube and there is literally nothing, the best I came up with was a video from John Mcquay that went for a few mintues showing mirage through his scope and the wind speed that he said so that you can kind of see what he is talking about. No one has made an in depth video to show for example a pic or video like skookums that shows what a 0-3mph or 3-5mph looks like in REAL LIFE. The diagrams with the squiggly lines like the article from the texas shooters that everyone mentions don't really help me.

I asked frank to talk about reading mirage in the everyday sniper podcast and he hasn't yet but maybe its something that needs pictures and video and you cant just talk about it??

An in depth video or pictures that point out the tell tale signs would be perfect. I have the software, just not the skill.

 

[AIAW]

Lol, it def goes all over the place, the good and the bad for sure. I get most of the concepts in there until the bantering began, then I got bored. The crux of my problem to put simply is the ability to look at the pictures posted by Skookum and DOPE the wind.

It's one of the more difficult aspects of marksmanship to illustrate over the Internet. Even in video it's difficult to truly "teach" about it due to the nature of how it's detected and quantified. There are a few YouTube videos and of course the plethora of "squiggly" 2D diagrams that cover it.

Ideally you would have an instructor and student(s) right next to each other with identical optics (identical optics not required - I just say that because ideally you'd know you are seeing the same details as the instructor). There are some things that just really need trigger-time after study, and this is definitely one of them.

 

[AIAW]

You know, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing what @CoryT thinks about trying to teach a subject like this without physically being with the student.

 

[BoltBandit]

It's one of the more difficult aspects of marksmanship to illustrate over the Internet. Even in video it's difficult to truly "teach" about it due to the nature of how it's detected and quantified. There are a few YouTube videos and of course the plethora of "squiggly" 2D diagrams that cover it.

Ideally you would have an instructor and student(s) right next to each other with identical optics (identical optics not required - I just say that because ideally you'd know you are seeing the same details as the instructor). There are some things that just really need trigger-time after study, and this is definitely one of them.

Damnit man, can’t you read my original post? You can’t say trigger time, experience, or anything else like that!!! ?

Anyway, I was afraid of that, otherwise you’d find way more content on it online. Maybe I’ll jusy post random pics and start a thread on “read that wind”. Nothing gets a thread going like guys arguing about whose right, lol.

 

[BoltBandit]

You know, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing what @CoryT thinks about trying to teach a subject like this without physically being with the student.

I take it he’s the guru?

 

[AIAW]

Damnit man, can’t you read my original post? You can’t say trigger time, experience, or anything else like that!!! ?

Anyway, I was afraid of that, otherwise you’d find way more content on it online. Maybe I’ll jusy post random pics and start a thread on “read that wind”. Nothing gets a thread going like guys arguing about whose right, lol.

Yeah, definitely not the thing most people want to hear but unfortunately the truth. If Cory responds he might have some insight/illustration that may help.

You're right though - creating a thread like that would no doubt cause a shit-fest.

 

[AIAW]

I take it he’s the guru?

Cory Trapp from Gunsite. One of the best instructors in the business.

Jacob Bynum, owner of Rifles Only is a great resource also. He hasn't logged on here in a while though.

 

[pitdog85]

A thread with pics like skookums first one with the fire would be epic with a corresponding this is what a 5mph wind looks like etc would be epic, I have looked at the second one blown up on PC and there is no way I can tell even the direction from that pic. But the first fire pic I can sorta see it is angled left indication of a left to right wind.

 

[TheGerman]

@sterlingshooter

lol just kidding

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Here is an example in video form. This is 3-4 mph right to left. This is about as clear as it gets.

 

[shaun1826]

Here is an example in video form. This is 3-4 mph right to left. This is about as clear as it gets.

This is one of the best threads I’ve seen. Keep the examples coming, especially the video examples.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

This is 4 mph left to right when it stands tallest and a solid 6 mph when it lays over.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Mirage played a role at Little Bighorn. Mitch Bouyer up on Crows Nest kept telling Custer to look for the little lines that moved like little worms. Custer couldn't see them. Those little squiggly worms were thousands of ponies. That translated to thousands of warriors. Custer rode on down there and the rest is history including poor Mitch Bouyer. Point being looking through mirage is a fine art and sight on a different plane. Doesn't matter if it is 13 miles or 13 hundred yards. It is a different form of eyesight. A good spotter or shooter dealing with mirage is like a good Indian scout.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

This one is a solid 8 or 9 mph at the very beginning right to left then gusts to 10+ mph.

 

[pitdog85]

Thanks so much Skookum I had seen that gun works one but those other 2 videos you provided are extremely helpful. You are one of the most helpful members of this forum frank should be paying you!!!

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Thanks so much Skookum I had seen that gun works one but those other 2 videos you provided are extremely helpful. You are one of the most helpful members of this forum frank should be paying you!!!

You're gonna get me banned!

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Skookum should change his name to Anemoi. Hes one of the top wind authorities in here.

 

[CoryT]

I don't think pictures are going to get it done, you'll need a video and some commentary. Still photos will have a hard time showing direction, and most of the time the subject of the photo is not the mirage, but some down range object or person. Let me see what I can do when the XLR class is finished on Thursday.

 

[Diver160651]

It was not long ago, that some of the BR guys thought a BOIL raised the bullet rather than displaced the target image.. So watching the bounce of the image can be as important as watching the shimmer for a light wind.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I don't think pictures are going to get it done, you'll need a video and some commentary. Still photos will have a hard time showing direction, and most of the time the subject of the photo is not the mirage, but some down range object or person. Let me see what I can do when the XLR class is finished on Thursday.

That is why I posted 3 videos.

 

[Diver160651]

You can NOT expect to use shimmer all the time.. Earlier shots at 1K had mirage (shimmer) was laying flat, but once the wind picked up almost all shimmer was gone, just blew it into a haze.

He is an example from Yesterday. Wind in the video 20+

Let me start by saying a couple of long winded (ha) things but to me are very important in transparency. Some of what I am going to mention have very deep points of their own. Sorry for the length of the post but I want to share with you that there are a lot of things to unpack, even though in the video I sound excited with a correct call using a TINY 6.5 with U34 and L7, it is just so wrong.. this was just playing - nothing more.. it is not even a real target.

The wind was blowing so hard I could not stand still -- you can see it in the shake of the video at 50x even on the RRS.

The spotter was way clearer than the video, I struggled holding the phone in focus. I don't know if you can see it, but the grasses are giving great clues. I used sound, face feel at the FFP and scanning the landscape for the wind call. Yes, along with shots shorter shots, but the DOF is way different that the earlier shots and lower speed. For the shot in the video, wind was LR about 300°

• First it was this isn't so much about shimmer now a heat haze, but it is about wind in general.​

• We have dead space just above tour expected impact area, NEVER ideal before or after a target.. Don't skyline your plates​

• Milling was done with a scope, I did have another smaller spotter with reticle, but was using the one that gave be the most uninterrupted view to look for a tiny projectile in a see of grass and hard scape.​

• The caliber 6.5 that used was nothing more than a buddy on the Hide sending his first rounds down range as far as he could.​

• Any time you see accelerated drop departure from a solvers model that was previously working to M1.2 you know that you have some sort of issue that is causing increased drag, soon some bullets will loose all predictability, or fall off the shelf.​

• High wind can play a part in contributing to instability​

• Almost universally true, once any cartridge is in the high 25+ mils its' decay is so rapid it really doesn't make sense to shoot much further (people do, just say'n)​

• You don't really "cross" transonic space once in and suddenly get out of trouble. He hit 1.2M just after 1000, and is still trans around 2100~​

• Once the CEP is larger than the target it really is raining not shooting.. we were using a very large rock face POA at the top.​

​

​

​

Ok, here is what actually happened to make two rather remarkable shots with all the above in play, You have to really look for the second splash.

• First the model worked well and was tuned on paper at 1000yards. BC was tuned -.02G7. The group was sub MOA​

• Next shots were in a very large open field just under 1400. The wind call was spot on but the shots landed 5 mils low. I called for a E turret check, repeat shot and not a correction. Wind held good again and the shot was in the same relative spot, again about 5 mils low. I need to make sure it was not a press, or a miscommunication. This is a really serious sign, see point #3 above.. but many people might not recognize it. Final drop was 10 mils more than the projected AB dope that was gtg at 1000.​

•This was too much drop to realistically "tune", so after a few attempts, I just created a single BC for that disrupted space to line up the shots.. Remember the solver is NOT working but now appears to be be because I have two curves.. Using that Data I called for the new shot..​

• He impacted with his second hit, so I turned on my phone. The original call was U35 L7, but shot was just high. You hear me give the TOTAL corrected call of U34 L7. He did take a bunch of shots and made many impacts on the top section of the rock face.. The shooter was GTG, amazingly constant.​

• I did NOT expect three nearly identical shots.. Everything including the wind should have been a no go..​

I am sure @CoryT will share some video from this ELR class over the weekend. He is one of the very best ELR wind callers, instructors and shooters around. He is the real deal.

 

[BoltBandit]

Here is an example in video form. This is 3-4 mph right to left. This is about as clear as it gets.

So when looking at this video, its a bit grainy, especially on my giant computer monitor, so I'm guessing you're not actually seeing the striated lines of the mirage? I'll keep looking at it if I'm missing something. If not, are you watching the direction in which the images shift?

 

[_Raining]

or I need to get off my ass and practice in the Georgia summer rather than every other time of year

You should check out Talladega CMP. I don't know where you are in GA but from Atlanta it is about a 2 hour drive to get there. They have 600 yard range with electronic targets. BC of the electronic targets you can aim dead on, look at the mirage and make a guess at where you think the bullet will go, take the shot then look at the screen and see where it actually went.

I live in GA but I am one of those people who can't seem to stop tinkering with load development and actually commit to a load and start practicing reading the wind. One day I will take my own advice and head over to Talladega for some wind reading practice. That instant feedback for each shot is just so nice to have vs going down range to a target and not knowing which one of your 10 shots was the one in the 8 ring.

 

[BoltBandit]

This one is a solid 8 or 9 mph at the very beginning right to left then gusts to 10+ mph.

Ok, to point out what's probably obvious to all, the mirage in the background is moving right to left and looks like flowing water, basically laying horizontal, so that's giving the 8-9, then 10mph gust. Or are you seeing the actual striations of the heat wave (as shown in diagrams)?

Another question, with the mirage being behind the animal, i thought that meant the mirage was glassing in reverse and the wind is actually blowing left to right?

 

[BoltBandit]

You should check out Talladega CMP. I don't know where you are in GA but from Atlanta it is about a 2 hour drive to get there. They have 600 yard range with electronic targets. BC of the electronic targets you can aim dead on, look at the mirage and make a guess at where you think the bullet will go, take the shot then look at the screen and see where it actually went.

I live in GA but I am one of those people who can't seem to stop tinkering with load development and actually commit to a load and start practicing reading the wind. One day I will take my own advice and head over to Talladega for some wind reading practice. That instant feedback for each shot is just so nice to have vs going down range to a target and not knowing which one of your 10 shots was the one in the 8 ring.

I'm actually up in Cumming (yep, actually spelled that way) and am a member at River Bend Gun Club. They have a 600 yard range as well. No electronic targets, but I have a Target Vision camera system that essentially allows me to do the same thing.

 

[BoltBandit]

This is 4 mph left to right when it stands tallest and a solid 6 mph when it lays over.

So this one seems fairly easy to make a call, unless I'm going about it the wrong way. For me, I was watching the line where mirage was present and where it was not. I honestly didn't know it could do that.

BTW, thanks for the vids! Huge help. Its a starting point. Pointing out mirage to my wife, I realized an excellent source of video is the Planet Earth and related series. They always use high zoom lenses with a narrow focal plane, so the mirage is often present in the background. I may be able to make some clips out of those for reference.

 

[_Raining]

I'm actually up in Cumming (yep, actually spelled that way) and am a member at River Bend Gun Club. They have a 600 yard range as well. No electronic targets, but I have a Target Vision camera system that essentially allows me to do the same thing.

I have been there once for an F Class match. I prefer Talladega bc I am quite the nervous person and I always worry about messing up in the pits or missing the call to drive down to the pits and what if I have to use the bathroom etc etc. It is much closer (~1 hour), maybe one day I will get a membership when I stop worrying so much.

 

[BoltBandit]

I have been there once for an F Class match. I prefer Talladega bc I am quite the nervous person and I always worry about messing up in the pits or missing the call to drive down to the pits and what if I have to use the bathroom etc etc. It is much closer (~1 hour), maybe one day I will get a membership when I stop worrying so much.

"As soon as you start think'n, you start stink'n" Zach Wylde

It's less than 30 min for me.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

So when looking at this video, its a bit grainy, especially on my giant computer monitor, so I'm guessing you're not actually seeing the striated lines of the mirage? I'll keep looking at it if I'm missing something. If not, are you watching the direction in which the images shift?

You will rarely see actual striations. It is kind of like looking at one of those optical illusion posters in the mall. You have to pan out your focus and look at the picture as a whole and stop focusing on any one part of it. The grainy quality of the video is exactly the part you are looking at, but ALL OF IT at once!

Your eye WANTS to focus on something. Your eye WANTS to cut through the distortion. Don't let it.

 

[BoltBandit]

You will rarely see actual striations. It is kind of like looking at one of those optical illusion posters in the mall. You have to pan out your focus and look at the picture as a whole and stop focusing on any one part of it. The grainy quality of the video is exactly the part you are looking at, but ALL OF IT at once!

Your eye WANTS to focus on something. Your eye WANTS to cut through the distortion. Don't let it.

Actually, that's the most helpful advice yet!

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Ok, to point out what's probably obvious to all, the mirage in the background is moving right to left and looks like flowing water, basically laying horizontal, so that's giving the 8-9, then 10mph gust. Or are you seeing the actual striations of the heat wave (as shown in diagrams)?

No, you are looking at the mirage the same way you look at a stream of water flowing, how many striatios are in a water flow? But you can still discern the direction, and in the case of mirage, the general angle.

Another question, with the mirage being behind the animal, i thought that meant the mirage was glassing in reverse and the wind is actually blowing left to right?

Nope, if you focus past the target, then in some instances the mirage image will flip. This is totally dependant on how close you are to the end of the focus range of your scope. It doesn't happen with all of them. Internal scope construction may be a factor there, that is outside of my knowledge.

But in this case the actual focus is on the cow. Therefore the mirage that is out of focus in the background is a true indicator.

 

[BoltBandit]

No, you are looking at the mirage the same way you look at a stream of water flowing, how many striatios are in a water flow? But you can still discern the direction, and in the case of mirage, the general angle.

Nope, if you focus past the target, then in some instances the mirage image will flip. This is totally dependant on how close you are to the end of the focus range of your scope. It doesn't happen with all of them. Internal scope construction may be a factor there, that is outside of my knowledge.

But in this case the actual focus is on the cow. Therefore the mirage that is out of focus in the background is a true indicator.

I can't thank you and everyone else enough for the insight. These are questions that have been pestering me for quite sometime and information is very limited. Tons of info on angles, wind speed, where to focus; but not on HOW to look. I'm pretty excited to get back to the range and try and put to use what I've just learned.

 

[Erno86]

You can download on Chrome...the United States Army Sniper Manual on a Pdf file ---- which shows illustrations of types of mirages with wind speed.

You can detect wind mirages better on your target backing on the frame. The frame should be about as big as a large TV set. On the backing...you staple a large pieces of freezer paper on the cardboard or plastic backing. Then staple black horizontal paper strips about 1" wide and spaced 1" between over the freezer paper. Then staple your target in the center.

I have one myself and it kinda works on sunny days.

Get a Kestrel wind meter...you can get for as low as $79--- I don't like the Caldwell. You can then memorize wind speed and direction, buy the way the wind speed feels on your face and on the edge of your hand.

I like to use wind flags. My best are the fiberglass curb location sticks you can get at Home Depot or Lowes. Sand the tip down a little bit so a 7.62x54R empty shell casing (or something similar) can fit on top. Use a thin straight wire surveyors location flag. Tear off most of the hanging plastic orange flag --- Bend a small wire loop on the opposite end and tie a strip of yellow caution flagging on the end --- Then duct tape or weld the center of the steel wire on top of the shell casing.

You can push or pound them in the ground with a rubber mallet. On frozen ground...pound a large screwdriver blade in the ground too make a hole for the stick.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

You can download on Chrome...the United States Army Sniper Manual on a Pdf file ---- which shows illustrations of types of mirages with wind speed.

You can detect wind mirages better on your target backing on the frame. The frame should be about as big as a large TV set. On the backing...you staple a large pieces of freezer paper on the cardboard or plastic backing. Then staple black horizontal paper strips about 1" wide and spaced 1" between over the freezer paper. Then staple your target in the center.

I have one myself and it kinda works on sunny days.

Get a Kestrel wind meter...you can get for as low as $79--- I don't like the Caldwell. You can then memorize wind speed and direction, buy the way the wind speed feels on your face and on the edge of your hand.

I like to use wind flags. My best are the fiberglass curb location sticks you can get at Home Depot or Lowes. Sand the tip down a little bit so a 7.62x54R empty shell casing (or something similar) can fit on top. Use a thin straight wire surveyors location flag. Tear off most of the hanging plastic orange flag --- Bend a small wire loop on the opposite end and tie a strip of yellow caution flagging on the end --- Then duct tape or weld the center of the steel wire on top of the shell casing.

You can push or pound them in the ground with a rubber mallet. On frozen ground...pound a large screwdriver blade in the ground too make a hole for the stick.

Not trying to be a dick, but you kind of missed the entire premise of this thread. The OP was looking for information that he couldn't get with all those other resources, which was an actual picture of real mirage as it is seen through a spotter.

 

[Diver160651]

You guys are talking about a lot of mirage, the most common thing we are using for wind, is NOT the mirage, but rather Heat Shimmer or Heat Haze. These conditions, while often associated with inferior mirage effect us the most as we look thru many layers of heated air and easily seen with our scope's compression, even when we can NOT detect the mirror like reflections of a mirage.

Yes, during winter on snow covered ground or across a cold body of water you'll sometimes get extreme superior mirage and on the desert floor more commonly inferior mirage, as the two most common types we might see when shooting (there are more conditions). But that is not really as common as people make it out to be at our "relatively" shorter range shooting distances.

I make the distinction, because the images of heavy inferior mirage shared online with the reflection so high you'd never see the target, are not common place, but shimmer is.

 

[pitdog85]

Yes, along with shots shorter shots, but the AOF is way different that the earlier shots and lower speed. For the shot in the video, wind was LR about 300°

​

• Once the CEP is larger than the target it really is raining not shooting.. we were using a very large rock face POA at the top.​

​

Diver can you please tell what AOF means and CEP means?? I'm guessing CEP means once your group size is bigger than the target ie you gun is 1/2moa but the target is 1/4moa??