I have a bunch of different lots of Varget 1 pounders and am wondering if I could just mix them all together and load develop from there? If so, what would be the best way to mix them to assure complete mixture(while preserving the structure of the granule)?
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Mixing powders from different lots
- Thread starter Creature
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Pressures will vary from lot to lot....most reloaders I know, including myself, shy away from mixing lots. Matter of fact, I just had 26 grains left from my last lot and instead of dumping it into my new 8lb keg, it went into the trash.
Mixing 26grains with 8lbs would have probably been OK...but, dumping 26grains from one lot into .308 brass and topping it with 18.7 grains from a new lot could have been catastrophic.
Me personally, I'd load as much as possible from each lot and make sure it's all the same lot that goes into each completed round.
Mixing 26grains with 8lbs would have probably been OK...but, dumping 26grains from one lot into .308 brass and topping it with 18.7 grains from a new lot could have been catastrophic.
Me personally, I'd load as much as possible from each lot and make sure it's all the same lot that goes into each completed round.
I do and use a empty 8 pound bottle, add the powder a little at a time from each source and shake/rotate it for a couple minutes. This seems to have ended lot to lot variations I have experienced in the past and my velocity seldom varies.
However, I have often wondered if much of lot to lot variation is really from moisture that has been absorbed in a powder that has been in a can on my shelf for months/years, opened a few dozen or more times compared to the first loading from a factory sealed/fresh can anyway.
However, I have often wondered if much of lot to lot variation is really from moisture that has been absorbed in a powder that has been in a can on my shelf for months/years, opened a few dozen or more times compared to the first loading from a factory sealed/fresh can anyway.
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That would be extremely unlikely. I have never seen a "catastrophic" difference in the same powder but different lot #'s. I'll usually run one lot down to close to the bottom of the powder measure, then top it off with the next lot of powder.
I always mix when there are different lots. Since no more 8-lbs jugs from Hodgdon for the time being, this might be even more important now.
I want as much powder to be the same as I can get it (hence now that it is mixed, it is all now the same lot in a sense).
The plant I work in works with extrudates (extruded material somewhat in the same form/size as powder) and their most random way of mixing which was studied a bit, was to pour thru a funnel, the more times the better. We take at least 2 different, sometimes more and pour thru funneled hopper. Sometimes, the blend is split and run back thru the same funneled hopper for a second re-blend to get the most we can get out of it.
I have an old jug from 5lbs if Unique powder that holds 2 of the 8-lb jugs of Varget I use for blending.
MR-2000 also has this same size jug 2-Gal+ jug. I'm not sure why they use such a large jug though, a standard 1 Gal jug would work just fine.
I want as much powder to be the same as I can get it (hence now that it is mixed, it is all now the same lot in a sense).
The plant I work in works with extrudates (extruded material somewhat in the same form/size as powder) and their most random way of mixing which was studied a bit, was to pour thru a funnel, the more times the better. We take at least 2 different, sometimes more and pour thru funneled hopper. Sometimes, the blend is split and run back thru the same funneled hopper for a second re-blend to get the most we can get out of it.
I have an old jug from 5lbs if Unique powder that holds 2 of the 8-lb jugs of Varget I use for blending.
MR-2000 also has this same size jug 2-Gal+ jug. I'm not sure why they use such a large jug though, a standard 1 Gal jug would work just fine.
This is good to know. So I should take the 20+ 1lb jugs I have and combine them several times using the funnel method outlined by 1lnbrdg? If so that will be a fun weekend activity!
I would propose that if either lot was off in its burn rate by so much that a 50/50 mix would be catastrophic, a full load of either (even if reduced by 10% to rework) certainly would have destroyed your rifle. I seriously doubt that variation of that degree would ever get out of the factory. When working with 1# containers, I routinely blend together 5# at a time. I put them in a large plastic container that has plenty of extra space, give it a stir and then roll it back and forth to mix further. Funnel back into the 1# containers for storage. I mark the outside of the container with the ratios of what went into it.
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Typically there's no more than a 10% difference between different lots....at least that's what the manufactures try to maintain, so I hear.
To clarify: when I say "catastrophic" I don't mean the gun detonates and kills everyone....I mean - cracked brass, blown primers...damaging the bolt face would be catastrophic to me as well.
I get what your saying about mixing them all together to make your own custom lot...in theory it does make sense. I've also learned that theories do not always extend to the real world.
I error on the side of safety and anyone asking for info on mixing powder will always receive a safe answer from me.
Hodgdon warns to "Never mix any two powders regardless of type, brand or source." I, personally, consider two different lot numbers as different powders...
Source, pg 16: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon Basic Manual.pdf
To clarify: when I say "catastrophic" I don't mean the gun detonates and kills everyone....I mean - cracked brass, blown primers...damaging the bolt face would be catastrophic to me as well.
I get what your saying about mixing them all together to make your own custom lot...in theory it does make sense. I've also learned that theories do not always extend to the real world.
I error on the side of safety and anyone asking for info on mixing powder will always receive a safe answer from me.
Hodgdon warns to "Never mix any two powders regardless of type, brand or source." I, personally, consider two different lot numbers as different powders...
Source, pg 16: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon Basic Manual.pdf
It is good in theory, and works in the real world. I and many others routinely do it, and will continue to do so.
I'm surprised there is any disagreement about this whatsoever.
I'd call it more personal preference then disagreement. I know you know your shit and the theory is good and won't kill you....the truth is, I have OCD and mixing lot numbers just doesn't work for me. lol
I'm with you Turbo. If you can't mix two different lots without worrying about blowing your face off or damaging the rifle or components then there is some serious quality control issues at the factory. I have mixed several different lots of H1000 in quantities of 50lbs or more and have had no ill effects other than I don't have to worry about small lot to lot variances for longer periods of time.
I error on the side of safety and anyone asking for info on mixing powder will always receive a safe answer from me.
Hodgdon warns to "Never mix any two powders regardless of type, brand or source." I, personally, consider two different lot numbers as different powders...
Source, pg 16: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon Basic Manual.pdf
I have always interpreted this to mean different types of powder, not different lots. Even so, please tell me how blending lots of the same powder could be more dangerous. I think most of us make our blend and then work up the load from there. When a new large batch is blended, I drop back and rework. Blending allows me to rework far less frequently. It also mitigates variation. Let's assume for a minute that you happened to get a ridiculously hot 1# can of Varget and blended it with 4 normal batches. In the blended method, that hot powder would only represent 20% (less 10% for workup) of the total charge and any detrimental effect would be watered down by the 80%. If you were to switch cans each time, you would get a full charge (less 10%) of the bad stuff. That seems far more risky to me, but maybe I'm missing what you are saying.
I have mixed different lots of Varget together without any resulting drama. I don't see how mixing two lots of the same powder together could cause any trouble. With modern manufacturing methods, I'd be surprised if there was 1% difference between different lots of Varget.
As loading manuals and programs such as Quickload do not consider individual "lots" of powders I always just dump the residual from one to another and march on. I've never noticed any effects and frankly have other variables to be concerned about. As always,..................YMMV.
lmao - this wasn't supposed to be a bash thrusty thread...... OP asked a question and I kindly said you shouldn't mix lots. damn guys.
No where will you see a manufacture recommend mixing lots...Archer if you have that documented from a manufacture, I'd love to see it. Here's another warning from Hodgdon that speaks to changing lot numbers:
"For all brands of powders use only the components shown. If the reloader makes any changes in components or gets new lot numbers, he should begin again with the starting loads and work up to maximum cautiously."
Source, 6th paragraph: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
No where will you see a manufacture recommend mixing lots...Archer if you have that documented from a manufacture, I'd love to see it. Here's another warning from Hodgdon that speaks to changing lot numbers:
"For all brands of powders use only the components shown. If the reloader makes any changes in components or gets new lot numbers, he should begin again with the starting loads and work up to maximum cautiously."
Source, 6th paragraph: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
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Here's a guy who contacted Hodgdon directly...
Source, Post #21: Powder lot number? - Page 3 - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine
Source, Post #21: Powder lot number? - Page 3 - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine
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This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If you took your loads from powder made on the "low side" and SWITCHED to loads made from powder on the "high side" there would be a 12% change. If you MIXED them, you would end up in the middle. It would be at the theoretical average and would pose less risk than either extreme.
I just got off the phone with Hodgdon and they told me that they do not recommend mixing different lots of the same powder. He said that you would not be able to mix it well enough to have reliable consistency. I have never really considered lot number a variable in the reloading equation. Urghhh....
Would any of you REALLY expect Hodgon to emphatically say anything less than: "Don't mix different types of powders, and don't mix different lot #'s of the same brand!!" in our lawsuit happy society? If you're not comfortable mixing different lots of the same powder together then DON'T. However, if you're comfortable with mixing lots and understand the difference between a homogeneous and heterogeneous mixture then you may proceed and thank science for your knowledge.
I can see that being a problem, especially if you tried to mix a large quantity. I guess I'll just be really happy when production catches up to demand so we can all buy several 8# jugs at a time from the same lot and not have to worry about it for a few thousand rounds. These current shortages and purchase limits at most stores are forcing us to do things a little differently and be more creative.
Lets put this thread to rest. I think we can all say that a manufacture of explosive, combustible, flammable or any other type of hazardous material will say never mix different products or lot numbers or whatever the hell it is. It covers there ass!!! Now we all know that yes you can make concoctions but is up to the end user after they purchase said powder. Hell lets talk about something fun! Like filling a 223 up with retumbo and cramming a 80gr smk in it
Hodgdon, just like any other manufacturer, can not legally condone the practice of mixing lots. That's just a fact of life.
I am sure there are plenty of folks who mix (myself included) who just can't say they do it.
I have half an 8# jug of H4350 left and I got 15# of another lot. I mixed them as 23# to create a consistent lot that will serve me for a while. I do the same for Varget, but right now I only have an 8# jug which is used for my heavy 223 rounds which I don't use frequently.
I am sure there are plenty of folks who mix (myself included) who just can't say they do it.
I have half an 8# jug of H4350 left and I got 15# of another lot. I mixed them as 23# to create a consistent lot that will serve me for a while. I do the same for Varget, but right now I only have an 8# jug which is used for my heavy 223 rounds which I don't use frequently.
I have mixed lots for years, and I get very consistent results. How you mix DOES matter. Mix very gently so you don't break the powder kernels, or wear coatings off. Mixing thoroughly is a given.
lots of things are recommended. who are they recommended by? people that mix powder sound like oddballs to me.
Lets say a pound makes 160 rounds give or take of 43 gr charges (off the top of my head there are 7000 grs in a pound). How often do you recheck zero or double check the firing results of a load? I would think before every match, or you are doing that when you practice. Get 3 or 4 pounds and you will probably be redoing your load somewhat anyway due to checking how far they are jumping.
I don't reset seating depth on a routine basis once I've found a good load. I just don't think that throat erosion is that severe after a few hundred rounds. What you are saying is absolutely "by the book" and I won't argue otherwise. However, when you switch to that new 1# can of powder, if you are doing it "by the book" you'll also need to drop back 10%, rework the load and find your new OCW. That will burn at least 20-30 of your 160 rounds. For me, spending time shooting groups off the bench is not particularly rewarding. I would rather find a load I like and stick with it. I enjoy working on UKD, wind, etc, much more than load development.
4 pounds would be around 600 rounds of ammo.
You are right though- if you have a good load you are probably going to shoot it until you notice it isn't as good as it was. But that would be verified by shooting some groups, and then you are back to testing again, basically.
I don't understand the idea of mixing powder- how do you make sure it is mixed good enough? How do you make sure there wasn't a group of powder that somehow segregated itself?
You are right though- if you have a good load you are probably going to shoot it until you notice it isn't as good as it was. But that would be verified by shooting some groups, and then you are back to testing again, basically.
I don't understand the idea of mixing powder- how do you make sure it is mixed good enough? How do you make sure there wasn't a group of powder that somehow segregated itself?
