Night Vision MOA rail and a clip on question

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I have an action that uses a 20 MOA rail. O MOA rails are not available. The bridge for the clip on is 0 MOA. The objective centerline should be within 3mm between the NV and daytime scope. I dropped a scope onto the bridge so I could check objective alignment. I can get it to less than 1mm but the problem is the 20 MOA cant of the daytime scope rail.

I suspect when I put the clip on there is going to be a substantial change in the point of aim.

I do not want to run a dedicated NV scope. Also the magnification of a dedicated is no where near as high as I should be able to get with the clip on and my daytime scope.

Anyone know if there is a standard MOA that a clip on can tolerate? Anyone have a recommendation for a clip on that can tolerate a 20MOA rail. Or am is just out of luck unless I buy another gun?

Thanks

 

[wigwamitus]

... is [there] a standard MOA that a clip on can tolerate? ...

Its more like, are there any standard clipons that can tolerate dual plane rail setups ? For me the PVS-30s and UTCs have been able to. But that doesn't mean all will.
That said, I swapped out the chassis that had the 0 moa bridge and went with single plane. All my rifles now have single plane.

Some clipons are more tolerant than others ... well .... a very few are "highly" tolerant ... most are less tolerant. But for me, I want to eliminate as many variables as possible. If I mounted even a PVS-30 ... 100 times and fired two groups at 100yds after each mount ... with a 20 moa / 0 moa setup ... and then did another 100 times with a 20 moa/20 moa or 0 moa/0 moa setup ... would I be able to measure the difference? I bet I would. A variable is a variable. I work to minimize the ones I can control.
I buy new scope mounts, I buy new chassis, etc. to minimize these variables.

Another option in the NV clipon space is a SIMRAD ... they mount on top of the scope, so don't care about rails.

==

... O MOA rails are not available ...

Oh and I also have people make custom rails for me ...

20 MOA custom steel rail/scope base for M-99 ... made by Ferrell industries, Warsaw, MO ... $200 ... very reasonable ... if you can think of it, they can make it !!

 

[Terry Cross]

I have an action that uses a 20 MOA rail. O MOA rails are not available. The bridge for the clip on is 0 MOA. The objective centerline should be within 3mm between the NV and daytime scope. I dropped a scope onto the bridge so I could check objective alignment. I can get it to less than 1mm but the problem is the 20 MOA cant of the daytime scope rail.

I suspect when I put the clip on there is going to be a substantial change in the point of aim.

I do not want to run a dedicated NV scope. Also the magnification of a dedicated is no where near as high as I should be able to get with the clip on and my daytime scope.

Anyone know if there is a standard MOA that a clip on can tolerate? Anyone have a recommendation for a clip on that can tolerate a 20MOA rail. Or am is just out of luck unless I buy another gun?

Thanks

You did not mention what type of "clip-on" you are using.

22s, 27s and 30s spec an envelope of 1* (degree) angular misalignment.
I have seen all 3 of those accept quite a bit more without any POI shift.

Your personal 20 MOA rail to 0 MOA rail transition is only 1/3 of the usual acceptable allowance. If you are running a 24 or one of the variants, you may see a little POI shift but still not likely.

If you mount your unit and experience a measurable POI shift of over 1 MOA, then I would suspect the collimation your specific unit may be out of calibration.

Basically, don't sweat the difference in rail attitude on your setup.


./

 

[j-huskey]

Most properly colimated PVS 22's, 27's, and 30's rarely have shift, like Terry Cross said.

It's not as noticeable at close ranges as it is at 300 or past. The further you go, the more critical it is you know what the shift is if you have one.

We are seeing some 1/2 moa shifts on 10-33 program PVS 22's, that have been refurbished and put in the program.

AI-AT has a set up where you can put the same moa sets on the base and separate NV rail, so, it has been enough of a problem "somewhere" that AI created 'this solution' (our dept AI's are set up with the matched system),

and the profusion of monolithic uppers and chassis rail systems is another indication of the "problem" fix.

ATN PS22's have been seen to have 7-8moa shifts on a solid chassis rail....

We wont know with yours until you try it and report the results and what brand unit you have.

Brother @wigwamitus is an extremely knowledgeable individual with lots of very nice pics and items to tell about. I'd like to see him publish his notebook....

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Thank you for responding, when I wrote my post I was really hoping you would be the one to respond. I have read a lot of the things you have done.

Using Burris rings that let me adjust cant I was able to get the centerlines aligned. Unfortunately the actual MOA will be 25-30 MOA depending how forward or back in the Burris rings the daytime scope ends up being.

I put the objective of my daytime scope against the objective of another daytime scope that was attached to the NV bridge. I aligned the centerlines but looking through them you can see the alignment and it is off by quite a bit. Definitely will not be useable.

Unfortunately Zermatt Arms or ARC does not offer a 0 MOA rail for their actions. Because of that I am looking for someone who can make a custom rail. Next option would be shimming until it is 0 MOA then bedding the rail.

Another option would be to shim the bridge itself to put the scope on the same plane as the daytime scope. But I suspect aligning the centerlines will be nearly impossible.

And the final option, which I will hate to do, is sell the ARC and Zermatt actions and buy a few Remington rifles to have the 0 MOA rails I want.

I will look into the Simrads again. I glanced at them earlier but they are really pricey. I am already into these guns a lot and hate to dump more money into them, especially considering I would need a simrad for each gun I want to use it on. The biggest reason for a clip on is to be able to go between guns but also for the magnification range I can get compared to a dedicated.

Thanks again for your response, I really appreciate your knowledge and insight in things like this. I am a complete newb when it comes to night vision outside of the military. I bought a handheld thermal scanner a few weeks ago and I am amazed at it. Now I just need to get something on my guns.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I am looking at AGM Comanche 40.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I sent Ferrel a message, I will have them make the rail. It is the cheapest, and best, option. It is only $50 more than the bridge and the same price as a standard ARC rail.

 

[j-huskey]

Your two actions are very good actions. A master machinist with a Brownells gunsmith Picitinny rail stock can make bases for either action. In any taper. So, relax a bit there.

Secondly, what stocks/chassis are you using.

If using McMillan or manners, an imbed nv mount can be installed. Depending on the imbed, the same master machinist can alter the pic rail on the imbed.

Master machinist gunsmith could install the imbed, then make a matching "levels" scope base and imbed base.

The "Commanche NV unit is complete unknown to me at the point.

Do you have any kind of ar15-ar10 platform you can play with ?
Reason, any decent rail system on them could be used to set up the scope and nv unit and tell you how good it's going to work and give you an idea of which way to travel.

More info ...... send....

 

[Killswitch Engage]

i have ran and owned pvs-22, 27 , and 30,s all on a couple different rigs. i have one that sees alot of use and it happens to have a 30moa rail on the action and zero bias on the chassis. i have seen no real notable shift from any clip on using that set up. i also have a 20moa railed set up with the same results.

 

[Terry Cross]

I am looking at AGM Comanche 40.

If you have not purchased yet, I would highly recommend you avoid this unit.

For add another $1k to your budget and purchase a refurbed PVS-26/30. There is a reason most reasonable clip-on units are pricey. Image quality is one but the other reasons are ability to retain POI and also recoil rating. Recoil rating should always be considered even if you are putting it on a rimfire. To most, the recoil rating has a lot to do with how the unit will retain its prism calibration even when handling and transporting.

You should ask yourself why the AGM unit is priced considerably BELOW what any reliable PVS-14 monocular would be yet it is supposed to have all the extra capabilities of a front mount NV unit.

It is not a bargain if it doesn't work.

./